Scheyer the spokesperson?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

KT is rapidly becoming my favorite Elizabeth King poster!
Cheers,
Lavabe

He'd make a great consultant, wouldn't he?

[mgtr]

I agree with KT completely. One of the reasons for a college education is education. Allowing students to get by with lazy speech, particularly in an adult and/or public setting, is shortchanging the student. It took me a long time (after college and grad school) to realize the importance of communication.

[SeattleIrish]

I could not disagree more with this sentiment. These are college educated young men for Christ sake! Everyone should be so well versed and eloquent as the "Duke Myth". It chaps my hide that the vast majority of basketball programs allow their players to use the foul grammer and slurred pronunciation usually reserved for pool halls and drug deals.

No, Blue Devil fans, do not dumb down your expectations on or off the court. Indeed, other programs should aspire to the level Coach K has acheived.

And having met Jon Sheyer, I think he makes an excellent spokesman for the program - humble, intelligent, genuine - and will make a great future captain.

KT:

While I appreciate the sentiment behind the post, the "usually reserved for pool halls and drug deals" segment means I will, from this point forward, be unable to read your posts without picturing you in a top-hat, bristled mustache, and a monocle precariously positioned in your right eye, cane brandished threateningly at the cpu monitor.

I am fortunate to teach a couple of classes as an adjunct at a much less prestigious institution (think diploma-mill-former-hoops-power-Duke-rival-'89/90), and the language of which you write is common for 18-24 year olds who may not have attended prep-school but have probably never set foot in a pool hall or participated in a drug deal. It's a sad commentary on contemporary society, but it's not associated with criminality.

s.i.

[KenTankerous]

KT is rapidly becoming my favorite Elizabeth King poster!
Cheers,
Lavabe

Aw shucks, now you went and made me blush...

[SilkyJ]

I do believe they are educated as to how to speak in public, including what to say, how to say it and what not to say. I hope (and believe) they are coached to lose the "you knows" and the "um's and uh's" which every youngster typically says subconsciously as a verbal pause because they don't know what they are going to say until it comes out of their mouth. Nothing more irritating than hearing a player say "you know" 15 times in a 25 second answer. Just listen to player interviews from some other teams.

Or listen to Demarcus. He says "you know" a couple times a sentence. let's not get too high and mighty.

I actually thought Demarcus was one of the better speakers on the team. Maybe he's not the best public speaker in front of something like a large banquet (not that I would know) but at press conferences or one on one interviews (at least the ones I've read/heard), he's been as well-spoken as anyone else on the team.

See above. Gerald is way better, imho.

I guess I didn't make myself clearly by saying Demarcus's not great at public speech. I was just trying to say that Demarcus seems to be kind of "shy", just the type of person who won't merrily chat away unless asked to. ( Not that I know anything about him personally. It's just an impression.)

your impression is pretty spot on. demarcus is a pretty shy guy and I think coach K even commented on it last year saying how hard it was to get demarcus to speak up and verbally lead.

One technique that I suggest that people use to correct these speech habits is to read the best English prose out loud for 15 minutes a day.

yea i know, u told me like, 20 times a day for, you know, my whole life.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I agree with KT completely. One of the reasons for a college education is education. Allowing students to get by with lazy speech, particularly in an adult and/or public setting, is shortchanging the student. It took me a long time (after college and grad school) to realize the importance of communication.

Ain't choo gonna check in here someplace?
Love, Ima

[Jumbo]

I think describing it as colloquial talk is too generous. It is a bad habit that is often indicative of poor writing skills. One technique that I suggest that people use to correct these speech habits is to read the best English prose out loud for 15 minutes a day.

I'd like to think that I'm a damn good writer. That doesn't mean that when I'm chatting with friends casually, I don't throw a few "likes" or "you knows" into the conversation as I'm thinking of what I want to say next. Not to mention that writing and speaking are inherently different skills.

[Jumbo]

I could not disagree more with this sentiment. These are college educated young men for Christ sake! Everyone should be so well versed and eloquent as the "Duke Myth". It chaps my hide that the vast majority of basketball programs allow their players to use the foul grammer and slurred pronunciation usually reserved for pool halls and drug deals.

No, Blue Devil fans, do not dumb down your expectations on or off the court. Indeed, other programs should aspire to the level Coach K has acheived.

And having met Jon Sheyer, I think he makes an excellent spokesman for the program - humble, intelligent, genuine - and will make a great future captain.

I'm an educated man. I say "you know" every now and then. I don't think it reflects poorly on me. I also think there's some serious racial bias in some of the comments in this thread (not just this post), when we see comments like "slurred pronunciation usually reserved for pool halls and drug deals."

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I also think there's some serious racial bias in some of the comments in this thread (not just this post), when we see comments like "slurred pronunciation usually reserved for pool halls and drug deals."

How's that, Jumbo? I don't see how encouraging and helping student athletes to be well spoken and effective communicators links to "serious racial bias".

Don't people of all races hang out in pool rooms and/or deal in drugs? Where's the bias?

Love, Ima

[Jumbo]

How's that, Jumbo? I don't see how encouraging and helping student athletes to be well spoken and effective communicators links to "serious racial bias".

Don't people of all races hang out in pool rooms and/or deal in drugs? Where's the bias?

Love, Ima

I didn't say working with student-athletes on public speaking is a bad thing, per se. What I did say was referring to someone's speech as reminiscent of drug dealers was racially biased. You are correct in saying that people of all races deal drugs. But which race is most commonly stereotyped in that manner?
I also don't see how all the "y'knows" is evidence of even a small problem.

[ugadevil]

I've had multiple speech classes where the teacher places an emphasis on verbal fillers when giving a presentation. If possible, it's good to avoid verbal fillers (regardless of what phrase you use "uhh", "umm", "ya know") because it reflects uncertainty. I don't know about the whole racial issue and stereotypes, but any good public speaking course will mention the importance of communicating in a decisive manner. It's a good sign that Duke players, when asked a question, can provide thoughtful and insightful answers and they don't stumble their way through it.

[micah75]

You are correct in saying that people of all races deal drugs. But which race is most commonly stereotyped in that manner?

Pool halls were also mentioned. Which race is most commonly stereotyped in that manner? Sure, if one leaves out pool halls, then perhaps you may have a point, but that wasn't the case here.

[wumhenry]

Some fillers are worse than others.
"Um" isn't nearly as annoying and stupid-sounding as "you know." "Um" doesn't pretend to be anything but what it is, a timefiller. "You know" is more distracting because it has semantic content and is more annoying because it affects a spurious solicitude for the listener's comprehension as a half-assed coverup for the speaker's momentary inability to complete his thought.

Of course, the quality of the content between the fillers is the most important thing.

[johnb]

If we're going to go after 20-year-old basketball players for saying a few 'uhms' while they are still huffing from having performed magic on the court for 40 minutes, I'm going to ramp up my DBR post total by attacking every misspelling, grammatical error, run-on sentence, and awkward phrasing that is typed onto the board.

By the way, my spontaneous speech at work meetings is dramatically less 'correct' than my written paragraphs; I'm not sure how I would have sounded on ESPN when I was a teenager. Sure, I'm pleased when our players perform a fluent interview, and I notice players from other teams who use awkward syntax, but I find it more grating to hear professional sportscasters who repeat the boring and inaccurate truisms that have become part of modern sports commentary.

And finally, it is true that some highly-privileged, upper middle class men of European descent engage in drug deals and pool, but it is also true that few people from that demographic are stars on elite college basketball teams. When linking speech patterns, illicit behavior, and college basketball, it's reasonable to imagine that the writer is referring to young Black men. I don't believe that such a comment is tantamount to Klan membership, but it's fair to comment on the comment, especially if we are feeling friskily free to criticize the off-the-cuff remarks made by teenage athletes.

[wisteria]

hmmmmmm...

How did my cheerful thoughts about Jon Scheyer lead to such serious discussions? Oh well, at least it's probably the first time that I started a thread with more than 5 replies.

[KenTankerous]

Sorry Wisteria, I didn't mean to fuel the hijack of your well meaning thread. But it is what it is at this point...

I intended no offense, least of all racial. But posts are like bounce passes, an errant one is almost always the fault of the passer. And if the passee sees offense, especially racially charged, then I am most apologetic.

I meant to be critical of the idea that athletes for major powerhouses are workhorses for the AD budget and not real students. Duke's athletes obviously are real students and it shows in their interviews, their attitudes and their post-basketball lives. If Duke can do it, and still maintain a consistent presence in the top 20 year after year, why can't every program? If that means I am being critical of young black males, then so be it. But tell me this, why are Duke's young black male athletes able to speak in complete sentences and finish a degree in four years better than most other programs? It's because black, brown, white or Canadian, student/athletes at Duke are just that: STUDENTS!

But I will confess, when the "pool hall...drug deal" metaphor came to mind I was thinking of Francisco Garcia who left the University of Louisville for the NBA after his junior year. His English was halting at best. And I'm not saying that makes him less of an American or human being or basketball player. I'm saying he should not be taking up a scholarship at a university. Look, I'm an intelligent, productive, generally damn good human being, but I can't speak French worth a crap so I have no business at Ecole Normale Super just because I am an excellent cook or soccer player.

The fact that Scheyer as a sophomore is more poised and fluent than most seniors on top ten squads should embarrass the other nine programs into coaching their kids a little better and raising their standards a little higher.

[77devil]

Not to mention that writing and speaking are inherently different skills.

I could not disagree more. My experience for several decades with highly educated professionals from some of the most selective graduate schools in the country is that quality of the two are highly co-dependent. It's certainly not a scientific study but the premise has held, in my experience, with few exceptions. And besides, one of my favorite professors at Duke, Harold Parker, would agree.

[Jumbo]

If we're going to go after 20-year-old basketball players for saying a few 'uhms' while they are still huffing from having performed magic on the court for 40 minutes, I'm going to ramp up my DBR post total by attacking every misspelling, grammatical error, run-on sentence, and awkward phrasing that is typed onto the board.

By the way, my spontaneous speech at work meetings is dramatically less 'correct' than my written paragraphs; I'm not sure how I would have sounded on ESPN when I was a teenager. Sure, I'm pleased when our players perform a fluent interview, and I notice players from other teams who use awkward syntax, but I find it more grating to hear professional sportscasters who repeat the boring and inaccurate truisms that have become part of modern sports commentary.

And finally, it is true that some highly-privileged, upper middle class men of European descent engage in drug deals and pool, but it is also true that few people from that demographic are stars on elite college basketball teams. When linking speech patterns, illicit behavior, and college basketball, it's reasonable to imagine that the writer is referring to young Black men. I don't believe that such a comment is tantamount to Klan membership, but it's fair to comment on the comment, especially if we are feeling friskily free to criticize the off-the-cuff remarks made by teenage athletes.

You said it better than I could have -- well done.

[Jumbo]

I could not disagree more. My experience for several decades with highly educated professionals from some of the most selective graduate schools in the country is that quality of the two are highly co-dependent. It's certainly not a scientific study but the premise has held, in my experience, with few exceptions. And besides, one of my favorite professors at Duke, Harold Parker, would agree.

Perhaps professional writing and public speaking are somewhat connected. But I highly doubted. More to the point, do you really have a problem chatting with a friend who says something to the effect of, "I don't know, we could go out for dinner, or, like, go to the movies or something." I mean, that's just casual conversation. It's the same way that "btw" or "LOL" or other shortened forms of language are acceptable on a message board.

I can understand pushing people to speak professionally in a public setting. But I think holding kids up as a paradigm of virtue because of that ability is not only wrong, it's snooty. And you can be darn sure that when these kids are hanging out with one another, they're, like, not worried about colloquial speaking, you know?

[77devil]

Perhaps professional writing and public speaking are somewhat connected. But I highly doubted. More to the point, do you really have a problem chatting with a friend who says something to the effect of, "I don't know, we could go out for dinner, or, like, go to the movies or something." I mean, that's just casual conversation. It's the same way that "btw" or "LOL" or other shortened forms of language are acceptable on a message board.

I can understand pushing people to speak professionally in a public setting. But I think holding kids up as a paradigm of virtue because of that ability is not only wrong, it's snooty. And you can be darn sure that when these kids are hanging out with one another, they're, like, not worried about colloquial speaking, you know?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My original point was simply that bad speech is a bad habit that can be corrected with effort and practice.

As to your question above, my answer is, uh, like, no, but, umm, I notice, and I absolutely believe, you know, that it carries over into other settings.