Coach Cutcliffe and recruiting

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Catfive,

To be fair, it doesn't sound like you truly were asking a question, but merely are seeking to disagree with those that do not share your previously-reached conclusion that Cutcliffe is an "average recruiter." And that's fine, I respect your opinion, just want to get that out of the way before responding further.

Catfive,

I don't mean to be fair. I don't respect you. You sound like a troll to me and I would appreciate it if you would take your vitriol elsewhere. Moderators, please delete his posts in this thread.

[A-Tex Devil]

EDSBS did a thorough job debunking this myth. Caveat emptor, Grove attendee.

That's awesome. I love EDSBS, but I'll have to respectfully disagree. I think they were just a bit upset that Clay Travis had the Gators next to last in his little poll. Great writers can make great arguments, but I'll take personal experience over that each time.

[wilson]

FWIW, I found myself randomly talking to a couple of Tennessee fans tonight who noticed my Duke hat and remarked on our having "taken" their OC. They said that they'll really miss him and that we'll be really happy with him in all aspects of the program, recruiting being an important one.

[formerdukeathlete]

Supposedly, Ole Miss has the one of the best female looking coed groups around. Never under estimate the power of the female gender.

Duke might be able to recruit more nationally then Ole Miss. But that doesn't mean it gets any easier. In fact Cutcliff would probably be smarter to recruit South and not North (PA, NY, NJ). Still tons of talent in FL who never get picked by the big three. These are the kids Duke could really build a very competitive and successful program with.

I disagree about Duke's prospects in PA, NY and NJ. But, add Ohio, Michigan, Illinois to the mix.

I also disagree about Florida. Tyler Rice was a highly sought after player from South Florida - Duke beat out better football programs in landing him. Hopefully, he is now finally healthy and will contribute. Another south Floridian left the Duke program early - dont know the reason for this, but he also was highly recruited. Tons of programs hit the recruiting trail in Florida, After all of these hit, after FAU and FIU take what is left over, especially, when focusing on whether there are academcially qualified prospects left over in this mix, there really is not much left over for Duke to recruit.

But, you will find 3 star rated top 10% of high school class players in the northeast and midwest who may choose Duke over top programs. My only reservation about Cut was that I thought we would have been better hiring a northeasterner or midwesterner in terms of recruiting - because I disagree with you - we will do our best recruiting outside the South, ONCE we have an improved program.

[Capn Poptart]

If the videos and interviews I've seen of Cutcliffe are indicative of his personality, I think we'll be just fine.

[OrangeDevil]

This is a very interesting discussion. I have maintained for some time now that the major deficiency in Duke football has been a recent history of abyssmal recruiting. Can Coach Cutcliffe recruit the caliber of athletes needed to compete successfully in the Atlantic Coast Conference and nationally? The answer is we don't know, but almost certainly this will determine whether or not the football program will succeed under the new coaching staff.

I propose a practical test of Cutcliffe's recruiting ability. Initially, is not whether or not he can bring some of the best players from Texas, California, New York, Florida, etc. to Durham. You have to walk before you can run. In this sense, it seems more plausible to expect success, much closer to home. To establish a solid foundation, Cutcliffe needs to bring to Durham some players from Durham and Triangle area programs. Annually, there are some at excellent prospects produced by Durham high schools and adjacent schools. How many of these even consider Duke as a football destination? Here's the test. His name is Desmond Scott. Next year, he will be a senior at Durham Hillside. Rivals has him listed as the #15 prospect in the class of 2009. He's a smallish but explosive running back who's being recruited by most of the top programs in the country. Along the list of schools that he's presently considering are Alabama, Clemson, Florida, UNC, State, Tennessee, and Virginia. He also sports a 3.7 GPA and should qualify for admission. There is no reason a player of this caliber should not be giving Duke strong consideration. Presently, Duke seems to be nowhere in site with him. We absolutely have to get some players of such skill and prominence to consider and then sign with Duke. I wonder if Greg Little gave Duke as much as a sniff before verballing to Notre Dame and matriculating to UNC?

Of course, there are additional benefits to be realized from recruiting Durham area players. It would aid in reestablishing a positive rapport between the Duke community and black Durham and remind everyone that Duke is not just in Durham, but that it is also of Durham.

[RepoMan]

Obviously, good recruiting is essential for success. It is hard to quantify recruiting success though. I tend to think that the best way to quantify that success is through results on the field. I'm no expert, but rankings skew heavily toward the 5 star recruits, and my sense is that, in football, moreso than in say basketball, 5 star status is by no means a sure sign of college greatness.

In any event, looking at Rivals, here are the class rankings since 2002 for a BCS school that rarely gets 5 star recruits, but throughout that time has challenged for and/or won conference titles just about every year:

27
41
14 (had a 5 star)
29
32


Those are the rankings for the Virginia Tech Hokies. All of which is to say that there is no reason to believe that the class rankings achieved by Cut at Ole Miss (for whatever the rankings are worth) are not more than adequate for success. Was the post Cut Ole Miss failure a result of recruiting mistakes or poor coaching? Beats me, but the data seems to suggest the latter.

[RugbyDevil05]

While I don't know much about football recruiting, and whether Cutcliffe is any good, he was shown several times during the Giants-Packers NFC Championship game yesterday sitting with the Mannings in their luxury box. Since the Giants won, it's likely we'll see him again during the Super Bowl. I can't imagine that regular exposure on national tv as the Mannings' mentor will hurt him on the recruiting trail.

[CatfiveCane]

college football recruiting is pretty tough to measure success with based solely on Rivals or Scout.com's star system. They never take into account transfers, players that never qualify, etc... For instance I was reading about UF's recruiting class under Zook and Urban Meyer. You look at Zook's last recruiting year and Meyer's first recruiting year at Florida and you say "great success" based on Rival's stars. But when you take a closer look at thing you see that about 75% of the players in that class have either transferred, quit, or never even played for Florida. Hardly a "successful" class in hindsight. Same is true for Miami. Miami pulled some of their best rated classes between 2002-2005, yet they find themselves depleted of talent.

So in short, we just can't look at stars to measure a recruiting class. Player development is also very important.

In terms of Duke recruiting the South. While there are tons of talent up North, it's a pretty common notion in the college football world that you go recruiting south, not north. Although Florida seems to be overcrowded with teams like FIA, FAU, UF, FSU, Miami, USF, and now central Florida... there are still tons of talent in the state. If Duke wants to be successful, the can start by beating out the USF, FIA, FAU, Rutgers of the world for the talent. I doubt Duke can beat out FL's big three or when schools like LSU, Ohio State or Notre Dame come cherry picking but still tons of talent in the state.

[CatfiveCane]

Catfive,

I don't mean to be fair. I don't respect you. You sound like a troll to me and I would appreciate it if you would take your vitriol elsewhere. Moderators, please delete his posts in this thread.

I appreciate your contribution to the thread. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.

[formerdukeathlete]

....In terms of Duke recruiting the South. While there are tons of talent up North, it's a pretty common notion in the college football world that you go recruiting south, not north. Although Florida seems to be overcrowded with teams like FIA, FAU, UF, FSU, Miami, USF, and now central Florida... there are still tons of talent in the state. If Duke wants to be successful, the can start by beating out the USF, FIA, FAU, Rutgers of the world for the talent. I doubt Duke can beat out FL's big three or when schools like LSU, Ohio State or Notre Dame come cherry picking but still tons of talent in the state.

And, Duke's advantages apply equally everywhere in the country. The question is, where are the recruits, particularly the maintstay, bread and butter, recruits (top 10% of high school class, 90 percentile college boards), who will be interested in and receptive to Duke's advantages? I submit that these recruits are not necessarily in the South, and particularly not necessarily in Florida where public education is not up to the same standards as in PA, NJ, NY, MA, OH, MI. Duke has some great kids out of St. Thomas Acquinas in Fort Lauderdale. Tyler Rice from Pinecrest in Boca Raton. Hopefully, more highly rated players from all over the country will become interested in Duke with winning games. I don't know if there is much more that Duke can do in FL. We already out recruit USF, UCF, FAU and FIU, IF the kids are better students.

[CatfiveCane]

And, Duke's advantages apply equally everywhere in the country. The question is, where are the recruits, particularly the maintstay, bread and butter, recruits (top 10% of high school class, 90 percentile college boards), who will be interested in and receptive to Duke's advantages? I submit that these recruits are not necessarily in the South, and particularly not necessarily in Florida where public education is not up to the same standards as in PA, NJ, NY, MA, OH, MI. Duke has some great kids out of St. Thomas Acquinas in Fort Lauderdale. Tyler Rice from Pinecrest in Boca Raton. Hopefully, more highly rated players from all over the country will become interested in Duke with winning games. I don't know if there is much more that Duke can do in FL. We already out recruit USF, UCF, FAU and FIU, IF the kids are better students.

How is it that you say Duke out recruits these schools already? Also what is a good student? Last time I checked USF was ranked #2 during this past season with almost all FL students... all of them NCAA eligible of course. We out recruiting USF too?

Sorry if Duke is only looking to recruit the top 10% in their HS class and 90 percentile college boards... and still be success... we might as well move to Div II football right now.

[77devil]

Supposedly, Ole Miss has the one of the best female looking coed groups around. Never under estimate the power of the female gender.

Duke might be able to recruit more nationally then Ole Miss. But that doesn't mean it gets any easier. In fact Cutcliff would probably be smarter to recruit South and not North (PA, NY, NJ). Still tons of talent in FL who never get picked by the big three. These are the kids Duke could really build a very competitive and successful program with.

Duke must recruit on a national level given its academic standards. Avoiding large states with established high school football traditions like PA, NY, and NJ would be foolish and counter productive.

How is it that you say Duke out recruits these schools already? Also what is a good student? Last time I checked USF was ranked #2 during this past season with almost all FL students... all of them NCAA eligible of course. We out recruiting USF too?

Sorry if Duke is only looking to recruit the top 10% in their HS class and 90 percentile college boards... and still be success... .

If you are not cognizant of the fact that admission standards at Duke for athletes is substantially above NCAA eligibility, and consistent with top 10% high school rank, 90 percentile boards mentioned by FDA, you have no business commenting.

[Jumbo]

You need to calm down. The man not only hasn't coached a game at Duke, he hasn't even run a practice yet. You've made your point about some recruiting concerns about Ole Miss. Everyone gets it. He can't do anything to change your view for at least another year. So, please, let it go. Everyone knows your stance. Try to lighten your tone a bit, and move on to something else.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

How is it that you say Duke out recruits these schools already? Also what is a good student? Last time I checked USF was ranked #2 during this past season with almost all FL students... all of them NCAA eligible of course. We out recruiting USF too?

Sorry if Duke is only looking to recruit the top 10% in their HS class and 90 percentile college boards... and still be success... we might as well move to Div II football right now.

I'm curious about when you were at Duke, CatfiveCane. Sometimes the era when we were there seems to influence our perspective.

[CatfiveCane]

Duke must recruit on a national level given its academic standards. Avoiding large states with established high school football traditions like PA, NY, and NJ would be foolish and counter productive.



If you are not cognizant of the fact that admission standards at Duke for athletes is substantially above NCAA eligibility, and consistent with top 10% high school rank, 90 percentile boards mentioned by FDA, you have no business commenting.

Oh please. Show me in writing where this is law. As far as I know, Duke is able to recruit 4-5 players a year who meet baseline NCAA sliding scale rules. This is fact and was published in the New & Observer about 1-2 years ago. Granted, I do know that Duke's standards are higher then the NCAA minimum, but no where do I recall reading top 10% rank etc. If that's the point, why even higher Cutcliff. He can't work miracles.

[CatfiveCane]

I'm curious about when you were at Duke, CatfiveCane. Sometimes the era when we were there seems to influence our perspective.

Except for the brief years of Spurrier... it seems like Duke Football has been the same in all eras for the past 30+ years.

[CatfiveCane]

You need to calm down. The man not only hasn't coached a game at Duke, he hasn't even run a practice yet. You've made your point about some recruiting concerns about Ole Miss. Everyone gets it. He can't do anything to change your view for at least another year. So, please, let it go. Everyone knows your stance. Try to lighten your tone a bit, and move on to something else.

Huh? Where are we? We are on a message board. The point is to discuss things. 90% of the items on this DBR board can never be proven. Plus I like football. And as long as I'm able to discuss football, I will.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Except for the brief years of Spurrier... it seems like Duke Football has been the same in all eras for the past 30+ years.

My question wasn't about the history of Duke football. What is your connection with Duke?

[rockymtn devil]

So in short, we just can't look at stars to measure a recruiting class. Player development is also very important.

In terms of Duke recruiting the South. While there are tons of talent up North, it's a pretty common notion in the college football world that you go recruiting south, not north. Although Florida seems to be overcrowded with teams like FIA, FAU, UF, FSU, Miami, USF, and now central Florida... there are still tons of talent in the state. If Duke wants to be successful, the can start by beating out the USF, FIA, FAU, Rutgers of the world for the talent. I doubt Duke can beat out FL's big three or when schools like LSU, Ohio State or Notre Dame come cherry picking but still tons of talent in the state.

1. Let me get this straight: Cutcliffe is, in your eyes, a bad recruiter because Ole Miss fell of the map after he left (with Orgeron coaching the remnants Cut's players). But, it's not just about stars because "player development is also very important" (important to what, I'm not sure, because you seem to have veered off your original course). So why are you willing to condemn Coach Cut's recruiting based on the results of players he didn't get to develop? Based on your ever-evolving theory of football recruiting success, the only basis for evaluating Coach Cut as a HC/recruiter is what was done by the players he both recruited and developed--the players that he won the SEC West with in 2003/4 and players that he led to bowl games every year but one.

2. I'm not sure why it's a "common notion" that you recruit south but not north. Outside of the big 3 (California, Texas, Florida) the best high school football is played in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. If you want Duke to neglect these states (and I do agree that Cut needs to tap into regional talent), you're cutting off a huge segment of the football talent in this country. I think Jim Tressell might disagree with some of your theories.