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  1. #1
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    Oct 2007

    Coach Cutcliffe and recruiting

    Anyone seriously know how good a recruiter he is? I have no doubts that he's a top notch offensive mind and will be a huge UPGRADE. But what about recruiting?

    He was fired from Ol'Miss. The team he left was in terrible shape due to lack of recruiting. Anyone read "Meat Market"? It basically follows the life of Ol'Miss head coach after Cutcliff was fired. Doesn't seem to paint a favorable picture of Cutcliff in terms of recruiting.

  2. #2
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    Recruiting and ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    Anyone seriously know how good a recruiter he is? I have no doubts that he's a top notch offensive mind and will be a huge UPGRADE. But what about recruiting?

    He was fired from Ol'Miss. The team he left was in terrible shape due to lack of recruiting. Anyone read "Meat Market"? It basically follows the life of Ol'Miss head coach after Cutcliff was fired. Doesn't seem to paint a favorable picture of Cutcliff in terms of recruiting.
    My understanding is that Coach Cutcliffe was fired at Ole Miss because he wasn't willing to sacrifice his assistants as the admin demanded. As to recruiting, let me introduce the Manning family......

    If you want more information, search DBR for the multiple threads which have discussed these two points at length.
    Regards.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil in the Blue Dress View Post
    My understanding is that Coach Cutcliffe was fired at Ole Miss because he wasn't willing to sacrifice his assistants as the admin demanded. As to recruiting, let me introduce the Manning family......

    If you want more information, search DBR for the multiple threads which have discussed these two points at length.
    Regards.
    See I knew someone would use Manning as an example, and I think it's a bad one. Sorry you have to recruit more than QBs. What was Ol'Miss record after Manning left? That's right.... downright awful. Cutcliff really left Ol'Miss in shambles after he was fired with barely any talent left. They still haven't recovered. While Ol'Miss isn't the LSU and UF of the SEC... it is still in the SEC and in a very rich area for talent (Alabama, LA, MS).

    Hopefully, he surrounds himself with excellent coordinators that can recuit the heck out of the Carolinas.

  4. #4
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    Why doesn't Eli Manning count? Is that not the most important position on the field offensively?

    And did he not recruit more than quarterbacks? It just so happened that Manning was his "top" prospect.

    He also did the yeoman's work for some guy named Michael Oher, and Ed Orgeron finished the job.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    Why doesn't Eli Manning count? Is that not the most important position on the field offensively?

    And did he not recruit more than quarterbacks? It just so happened that Manning was his "top" prospect.

    He also did the yeoman's work for some guy named Michael Oher, and Ed Orgeron finished the job.


    Manning does count.... but let's look at something:
    1) Where did Manning's dad play?
    2) Who coached his older brother, Payton?

    Those two things give Cutcliff a huge advantage, and while that's great if your an Ol'Miss fan.... these kind of advantages are very rare.

    As you know Ed Orgeron got fired from Miss. Orgeron, as you know, is known as a big time recruiter that is largely responsible for building up USC's major talent of stockpile in the early 2000s.

  6. #6
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    If he can get the best quarterbacks, don't the best offensive players usually like to follow?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    Manning does count.... but let's look at something:
    1) Where did Manning's dad play?
    2) Who coached his older brother, Payton?

    Those two things give Cutcliff a huge advantage, and while that's great if your an Ol'Miss fan.... these kind of advantages are very rare.

    As you know Ed Orgeron got fired from Miss. Orgeron, as you know, is known as a big time recruiter that is largely responsible for building up USC's major talent of stockpile in the early 2000s.
    The clear familial connection aside between Ole Miss and Eli, there's a reason why the Manning brothers will be moving their camp to Duke this summer, and that reason is David Cutcliffe. He didn't land Eli solely because of connections; he did it because he did the best job of selling himself and his school to Eli and Archie.

    Further, Orgeron's an outstanding recruiter, no doubt. But he was asked to leave outright. Consider that Cutcliffe only was dismissed because he refused to terminate his assistants.

    That all aside, many Mississippi faithful bemoan the recruiting job that Cutcliffe supposedly did while he was in charge there. But the bottom line is that he brought Mississippi more success than anyone had in quite some time, and more so than Orgeron did during his brief tenure.

    Cutcliffe's got a great staff in Durham now, and he has been the first to say that he is infinitely more prepared to be a head coach now than he was during his first go-around.

    He's already brought one four-star quarterback to campus, drew enough respect to make Duke at least a minimal possibility for the best college prospect since Adrian Peterson, and will be spending every waking moment he's not coaching his current team to earning the right to be called a "good recruiter."

    I appreciate the points you're attempting to make, but I humbly submit that a review of Mississippi's recruiting rankings under Cutcliffe are actually quite respectable, and that he's more than worthy of being given the opportunity to recruit at Duke before being shrugged off as an unproven recruiter.

    Sure, there were "ins" that he had with Eli Manning. But he made the most of them.

    There are ample examples out there of coaches buttressed by similar connections that are unable to capitalize. Cutcliffe did. That says something, IMO.

  8. #8
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    Excellent choice of words

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    The clear familial connection aside between Ole Miss and Eli, there's a reason why the Manning brothers will be moving their camp to Duke this summer, and that reason is David Cutcliffe. He didn't land Eli solely because of connections; he did it because he did the best job of selling himself and his school to Eli and Archie.

    Further, Orgeron's an outstanding recruiter, no doubt. But he was asked to leave outright. Consider that Cutcliffe only was dismissed because he refused to terminate his assistants.

    That all aside, many Mississippi faithful bemoan the recruiting job that Cutcliffe supposedly did while he was in charge there. But the bottom line is that he brought Mississippi more success than anyone had in quite some time, and more so than Orgeron did during his brief tenure.

    Cutcliffe's got a great staff in Durham now, and he has been the first to say that he is infinitely more prepared to be a head coach now than he was during his first go-around.

    He's already brought one four-star quarterback to campus, drew enough respect to make Duke at least a minimal possibility for the best college prospect since Adrian Peterson, and will be spending every waking moment he's not coaching his current team to earning the right to be called a "good recruiter."

    I appreciate the points you're attempting to make, but I humbly submit that a review of Mississippi's recruiting rankings under Cutcliffe are actually quite respectable, and that he's more than worthy of being given the opportunity to recruit at Duke before being shrugged off as an unproven recruiter.

    Sure, there were "ins" that he had with Eli Manning. But he made the most of them.

    There are ample examples out there of coaches buttressed by similar connections that are unable to capitalize. Cutcliffe did. That says something, IMO.
    You've summed it up quite well, Mike. Thank you!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    The clear familial connection aside between Ole Miss and Eli, there's a reason why the Manning brothers will be moving their camp to Duke this summer, and that reason is David Cutcliffe. He didn't land Eli solely because of connections; he did it because he did the best job of selling himself and his school to Eli and Archie.

    Further, Orgeron's an outstanding recruiter, no doubt. But he was asked to leave outright. Consider that Cutcliffe only was dismissed because he refused to terminate his assistants.

    That all aside, many Mississippi faithful bemoan the recruiting job that Cutcliffe supposedly did while he was in charge there. But the bottom line is that he brought Mississippi more success than anyone had in quite some time, and more so than Orgeron did during his brief tenure.

    Cutcliffe's got a great staff in Durham now, and he has been the first to say that he is infinitely more prepared to be a head coach now than he was during his first go-around.

    He's already brought one four-star quarterback to campus, drew enough respect to make Duke at least a minimal possibility for the best college prospect since Adrian Peterson, and will be spending every waking moment he's not coaching his current team to earning the right to be called a "good recruiter."

    I appreciate the points you're attempting to make, but I humbly submit that a review of Mississippi's recruiting rankings under Cutcliffe are actually quite respectable, and that he's more than worthy of being given the opportunity to recruit at Duke before being shrugged off as an unproven recruiter.

    Sure, there were "ins" that he had with Eli Manning. But he made the most of them.

    There are ample examples out there of coaches buttressed by similar connections that are unable to capitalize. Cutcliffe did. That says something, IMO.
    So you saying if Archie never played at Miss and his older never was coached by Cutcliff, he would have gotten Eli? I doubt it. But yes, he got him and that does count for something. You state Cutcliff's recruiting is "Respectable". How do you justify this? You say he shouldn't be shrugged off as an unproven recruiter. Well he is a proven recruiter. He's proven to be an average one at best.

    Cutcliff is going to find it even harder to recuit at Duke compared to Miss. What happens in 1-2 years when he no longer has the Tennessee badge to whip out. I guess we shall see. Hopefully, he has learned from his mistakes and becomes a monster recruiter.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    The clear familial connection aside between Ole Miss and Eli, there's a reason why the Manning brothers will be moving their camp to Duke this summer, and that reason is David Cutcliffe.
    Is this similar to when former Duke greats come back to campus early in the year and scrimmage with the team, or is this an official camp that Peyton and Eli will be participating in? Will this have any tangible benefit to our current football team?

  11. #11
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    Columbus, Ohio
    Catfive,

    To be fair, it doesn't sound like you truly were asking a question, but merely are seeking to disagree with those that do not share your previously-reached conclusion that Cutcliffe is an "average recruiter." And that's fine, I respect your opinion, just want to get that out of the way before responding further.

    I did not say that Archie's connection to Mississippi didn't have an impact on Eli's ultimate decision. I did say, however, that it clearly wasn't the only item of significance in Eli's recruitment. I tend to think that Cutcliffe had a great deal to do with that. Of course, the best way to resolve this would be to speak with Eli himself, and perhaps once he's finished with his current season, I'll attempt to do just that.

    That aside, you've asked me to justify my conclusion that his recruiting was "respectable."

    Here's the best I can do in a few minutes:

    Rivals.com, which has at least a modicum of respectability when it comes to football recruiting rankings, has team recruiting rankings tabulated from 2002 on.

    Ole Miss was rated as 33rd in 2002, with one five-star recruit, eight four-star recruits and seven three-star recruits.

    2003 brought a less impressive haul, with Cutcliffe's class ranking 38th, with zero five-star recruits, two four-star recruits and 14 three-star recruits.

    And in 2004, Cutcliffe brought in the 30th-best haul in America, with three four-star recruits and 11 three-stars.

    If that doesn't qualify as, at least, "respectable," I'm not sure what does.

    To be thorough, let's also consider the team rankings from Scout.com, another football recruiting outlet that has, at least, a modicum of respectability with regards to rankings such as these. Its records also begin in 2002.

    2002: 26th - 1 five-star; 5 four-star; 9 three-star
    2003: 32nd - 3 four-star; 7 three-star
    2004: 39th - 1 four-star; 11 three-star

    For good measure, I think it's also worth noting the 2005 recruiting class, of which Cutcliffe and his staff undoubtedly did a great deal of work. Yes, that classes pair of five-star recruits committed after Cutcliffe had been forced out. So with the caveat that I reserve the right to be proven wrong by someone privy to the ins and outs of Ole Miss recruiting in '04-'05, I think it's fair to give Cutcliffe at least a scintilla of credit for laying the groundwork for that class.

    All that said, who failed to capitalize on all of that talent post-Eli? It wasn't Cutcliffe--he wasn't given the chance.

    I'm thrilled that Cutcliffe has the chance to prove his mettle--both as a coach and as a recruiter--at Duke.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    So you saying if Archie never played at Miss and his older never was coached by Cutcliff, he would have gotten Eli? I doubt it. But yes, he got him and that does count for something. You state Cutcliff's recruiting is "Respectable". How do you justify this? You say he shouldn't be shrugged off as an unproven recruiter. Well he is a proven recruiter. He's proven to be an average one at best.

    Cutcliff is going to find it even harder to recuit at Duke compared to Miss. What happens in 1-2 years when he no longer has the Tennessee badge to whip out. I guess we shall see. Hopefully, he has learned from his mistakes and becomes a monster recruiter.
    I've been pretty close to Ole Miss football -- my ex-wife was a graduate and her dad is in the administration. By the way -- if you've never been to the Grove for a pregame -- that's up there with Duke UNC at Cameron, Ohio State Michigan as a college sports must.

    Cutcliffe had some less than stellar recruiting by SEC standards, but pulled in teams that Duke would be thrilled to have. Recruiting at the 2 Mississippi SEC schools is a very very difficult job. There isn't alot of in state talent and what is there is constantly raided by the border states.

    Cutcliffe got a screw job the season after Eli left. But Orgeron was an unmitigated disaster. He had no control over the team and used Cutcliffe's failure to recruit as an excuse for his inability to get the team to execute -- especially on offense. If Cutcliffe's recruits were really the reason Orgeron couldn't win, he'd still be there.

    Orgeron is a great assistant, but a joke of a head coach. Check out http://everydayshouldbelemsday.blogspot.com. It's a pardoy site but not far off. It's based on the portrayal of Orgeron in "The Blind Side." Great stuff. Better yet - check this song out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nACZJ5x_wBY

    Cutcliffe can recruit. He's not Nick Saban or Pete Carroll in that respect, but offensive talent wants to play for him, and hopefully his defensive staff will be up to the challenge as well.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post

    Cutcliffe had some less than stellar recruiting by SEC standards, but pulled in teams that Duke would be thrilled to have. Recruiting at the 2 Mississippi SEC schools is a very very difficult job. There isn't alot of in state talent and what is there is constantly raided by the border states.
    Well Cutcliff is probably going to have an even more difficult task of getting talent to commit to Duke. North Carolina really isn't a bastion of football talent. The you have teams like Clemson, USC, Georgia, UVA, Virginia Tech and now UNC (with Butch Davis) taking all the local talent away.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    Well Cutcliff is probably going to have an even more difficult task of getting talent to commit to Duke. North Carolina really isn't a bastion of football talent. The you have teams like Clemson, USC, Georgia, UVA, Virginia Tech and now UNC (with Butch Davis) taking all the local talent away.
    This is a problem any Duke football coach would face and has faced, however.

    Cutcliffe and his staff are as equipped and experienced as any I can imagine to combat the challenges at hand.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatfiveCane View Post
    Well Cutcliff is probably going to have an even more difficult task of getting talent to commit to Duke. North Carolina really isn't a bastion of football talent. The you have teams like Clemson, USC, Georgia, UVA, Virginia Tech and now UNC (with Butch Davis) taking all the local talent away.
    I disagree. Duke can recruit nationally in a way that Ole Miss never has. That's the main advantage. We get PA, TX, Fla, IL, NJ, CA. Now we don't always get the best talent, but we recruit a much broader geography than what you can at Ole Miss. If we can step up the talent, we'll be in good shape.

  16. #16
    Ole Miss didnt have the luxury of offering a free ride to a Duke education..

  17. #17

    Cornell Football?

    A related question:

    At the game last night, Coach Cut announced his staff, including his recruiting coordinator whose name I don't recall but came from Cornell. Academically it seems like a good hire, as he would presumably know how to find student athlete that can succeed in the classroom at a school like Duke. Athletically, though, I have no idea.

    Is there anyone here that follows Ivy football closely enough to wager a guess at whether or not this is a good hire?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbfx3 View Post
    Ole Miss didnt have the luxury of offering a free ride to a Duke education..
    True. But Ole MIss has other "perks" often found in sundresses on gameday at the Grove. A prettier site I don't think I've ever seen.

    Seriously, though, I'm excited. Cutcliffe is a name guy, who has had success. Those Eli Manning led teams were well coached. It wasn't all Eli, although he was ver very good.

    I'm hoping for some surprises on 2/2, but even if not, I bet we start hearing some surprising verbal commits over the next year for class of 2009.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    True. But Ole MIss has other "perks" often found in sundresses on gameday at the Grove. A prettier site I don't think I've ever seen.
    EDSBS did a thorough job debunking this myth. Caveat emptor, Grove attendee.

  20. #20
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    Oct 2007
    Supposedly, Ole Miss has the one of the best female looking coed groups around. Never under estimate the power of the female gender.

    Duke might be able to recruit more nationally then Ole Miss. But that doesn't mean it gets any easier. In fact Cutcliff would probably be smarter to recruit South and not North (PA, NY, NJ). Still tons of talent in FL who never get picked by the big three. These are the kids Duke could really build a very competitive and successful program with.

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