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  1. #1
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    I want to talk about 'flopping' a little bit.

    ok, i played basketball like most people who will read this thread. i want to quickly address the topic of 'flopping' that for some reason we (Duke) get criticized for much more than most teams that I check out.

    first, I get the distinct feeling that people who complain about 'flopping' are mostly waifs or whiny wafer types who never even played competitive basketball (ie, where you had a coach, and you had to go to practice, and you had to learn basic things like HOW TO TAKE A CHARGE).

    so, a couple things about this:

    1) Taking a charge is supposed to be an integral part of the 'defense' side of basketball.
    2) We have a coach at Duke who thrives on teaching defense.
    3) To properly take a charge in basketball, you MUST LEAN BACK a little when the opposing player is coming to run over you. You work to ABSORB the impact. You are never to TOTALLY and RIGIDLY repel the contact.
    4) If you stand there rigidly YOU WILL BE INJURED. (hello? is anyone reading this...hello??)

    We take a lot of charges at Duke; our coach teaches this. Do ALL of the attempts to take a charge work? NO. Some work, some don't, some look better than others. That is part of the game at Duke. Your guys don't 'flop' probably because they don't work too hard at (insert your school name here) in teaching the full theory of defense. All players who are schooled to take a charge HAVE TO FLOP or you get your neck broken daggonit.

    So get educated and get over it, and I am sick and very, very tired of hearing so many people tacitly tell us that they really don't understand basketball very well. The next time someone criticizes a Dukie for 'flopping' and trying to take a charge, tell them that their coach should work to teach defense and teach it correctly. We got three NC banners hanging up there in Cameron to prove we've learned a thing or two about playing defense and taking the charge at Duke.

    Thank you; my Rant (capitalized) is over.

    dukestheheat

  2. #2
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    First: not really sure why you're ranting at Duke fans about this. This rant would be more appropriate elsewhere, unless you're just looking for people to agree with you.

    Second: while you can definitely reasonably be expected to fall down after a legitimate charge taken, there IS such a thing as flopping. A flop occurs when you dive to the floor exagerating contact that wasn't worthy of a charge. When you take a real charge, you fall to the floor, but that's not a flop. When someone dribbles up, makes minimal contact and spins away, and the defender dives to the floor, that's a flop.

    In other words: legitimate charge taken = no flop
    Diving to try to draw a fake charge = flop

    When a defender takes a charge on a shooter, it's very rarely a flop. In those cases, the fall is absolutely the end result of the contact. Flops typically happen much more frequently when a player is on the block, or when a player up top is dribbling toward a defender and tries a spinning change of direction.

    Do we currently flop more than other teams? I definitely don't think so. Have we had players who flopped (in addition to taking lots of legitimate charges)? I'd say so.

    Battier, for all of his defensive greatness (including the ability to take legitimate charges), definitely did some flopping as well. He didn't flop as much as some people say he did, but he did flop some. But in this day and age, flopping occurs all across the country.

  3. #3
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    cdu-

    not meaning to rant AT our Duke fans, but am only trying to drive home a few points that we aren't as bad at flopping as most people assert and that it's a part of the game. i've flopped, so have you if you played and we shouldn't take any more junk from others about it. is all. i'm tired of others criticizing our guys for something that is part of the game.

    dth.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukestheheat View Post
    cdu-

    not meaning to rant AT our Duke fans, but am only trying to drive home a few points that we aren't as bad at flopping as most people assert and that it's a part of the game. i've flopped, so have you if you played and we shouldn't take any more junk from others about it. is all. i'm tired of others criticizing our guys for something that is part of the game.

    dth.
    I don't remember flopping, actually. Part of that is because I was a guard when I played (less time spent in the post). Part of that is because I think our definitions of flopping are different.

    I don't consider going down after taking a legitimate charge to be a flop. I consider flopping to be like taking a dive in soccer. When you throw yourself to the ground after minimal contact in an overexaggerated attempt at a charge, that's a flop. Thus, flopping (as I define it) IS despicable, and it shouldn't be a part of the game. Falling after trying to take a legit charge is not flopping (and not despicable).

    I've seen Battier (and other Duke players) take dives on what were not charges (though not as much as some suggest he did). I agree that it doesn' happen with Duke players nearly as much as some suggest (certainly not this year, and not for a few years really).

  5. #5
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    Cool

    Before you go tooting your devil blue horn, you should understand a few things about flopping:

    1. It is a relatively recent invention in the game, circa 1970. You are not going to like knowing its inventor. Can we all say "Dean Smith," boys and girls. It was invented by him at about the same time he installed that other great contribution to the modern game, the Four Corners. Heck, Dean literally made watching college basketball like watching people fish (does anyone watch those shows by the way). I mean, nothing happens for minutes on end when Carolina or a Carolina wanna be had the ball, and then when they go on defense, everybody's flopping around all over the court like fish out of water.

    2. Charges were always part of the game, but they were not to be farmed. They happened when someone tried to run through someone. They were rare. Contact of that sort was rare. It was a good thing that such contact was rare. The game kept moving, and people made plays, elegant ones. Some offensive guy put down his head, actually his shoulder, and tried to make like Jim Brown, the refs called a foul. Somebody stepped in front of somebody, the foul was usually on the stepper. There had to be meaningful contact for anything to be called. The idea that there could be "charges" away from the basket, much less by people not moving towards the basket, was ridiculous.

    3. I understand this business of forcing people to the baseline and then boxing them in. I'm all for that. K's invention and a damn good one. But, calling a charge on the offensive guy if his shoulder makes contact with the guy who stepped in his way, when no advantage has been gained, is a nonsense call. That is Dean Smith's invention, not K's. They should do away with that call yesterday.

    4. In fact, the game would be safer and more elegant if there was no such thing as an "offensive" foul for charging. If an offensive player breaks the plane or whatever the term is and GETS AN ADVANTAGE, do like in choose up games. The other side gets the ball. Period. End of discussion (at least where we used to play, you could never challenge any call the other team made or we would still be playing our first game (a lot of lawyers in that group)). Defensive blocks, they would remain fouls.

    Is Duke really accused of using it more than anybody? You guys should be glad. I bet it annoys the heck out of Dean everytime he hears that.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Before you go tooting your devil blue horn, you should understand a few things about flopping:

    1. It is a relatively recent invention in the game, circa 1970. You are not going to like knowing its inventor. Can we all say "Dean Smith," boys and girls. It was invented by him at about the same time he installed that other great contribution to the modern game, the Four Corners. Heck, Dean literally made watching college basketball like watching people fish (does anyone watch those shows by the way). I mean, nothing happens for minutes on end when Carolina or a Carolina wanna be had the ball, and then when they go on defense, everybody's flopping around all over the court like fish out of water.

    2. Charges were always part of the game, but they were not to be farmed. They happened when someone tried to run through someone. They were rare. Contact of that sort was rare. It was a good thing that such contact was rare. The game kept moving, and people made plays, elegant ones. Some offensive guy put down his head, actually his shoulder, and tried to make like Jim Brown, the refs called a foul. Somebody stepped in front of somebody, the foul was usually on the stepper. There had to be meaningful contact for anything to be called. The idea that there could be "charges" away from the basket, much less by people not moving towards the basket, was ridiculous.

    3. I understand this business of forcing people to the baseline and then boxing them in. I'm all for that. K's invention and a damn good one. But, calling a charge on the offensive guy if his shoulder makes contact with the guy who stepped in his way, when no advantage has been gained, is a nonsense call. That is Dean Smith's invention, not K's. They should do away with that call yesterday.

    4. In fact, the game would be safer and more elegant if there was no such thing as an "offensive" foul for charging. If an offensive player breaks the plane or whatever the term is and GETS AN ADVANTAGE, do like in choose up games. The other side gets the ball. Period. End of discussion (at least where we used to play, you could never challenge any call the other team made or we would still be playing our first game (a lot of lawyers in that group)). Defensive blocks, they would remain fouls.

    Is Duke really accused of using it more than anybody? You guys should be glad. I bet it annoys the heck out of Dean everytime he hears that.
    This just became my bible. What was said here pretty much sums the flop/charge thing for me. I don't care who the hell is to blame. I want it out of basketball.

    I did play organized basketball, I was raised by a man who played organized ball and what I was always told was the charge was a rare thing for when a guy went barelling to the basket with his head down. Other than that, you kept your feet and played defense.

    As far as does Duke do it more than others, of course not. But do a Youtube search on "Paulus Flops" Unfortunately, that play is Duke's rep, albeit most likely unfair.

  7. #7
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Spret42 View Post
    I did play organized basketball, I was raised by a man who played organized ball and what I was always told was the charge was a rare thing for when a guy went barelling to the basket with his head down. Other than that, you kept your feet and played defense.
    What does you being raised by a person who played "organized ball" have to do with the rules of basketball? Precisely nothing.

    Drawing a "charge" (ie, offensive foul) is a concept coaches use to teach their players how to play proper defense. As I have said before, the defense is always entitled to a spot on the court as long as that spot was gained legally and within the prescribed rules. If a player, no matter how "barelling" or not you deem him to be, displaces that player from his spot so that a disadvantage is created, an offensive foul should be called.

    You may have a preference for how you like basketball to be played, and that's fine, but the fact is that your opinion has no bearing on the rules of basketball.

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    2. Charges were always part of the game, but they were not to be farmed. They happened when someone tried to run through someone. They were rare. Contact of that sort was rare. It was a good thing that such contact was rare. The game kept moving, and people made plays, elegant ones. Some offensive guy put down his head, actually his shoulder, and tried to make like Jim Brown, the refs called a foul. Somebody stepped in front of somebody, the foul was usually on the stepper. There had to be meaningful contact for anything to be called. The idea that there could be "charges" away from the basket, much less by people not moving towards the basket, was ridiculous.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at, but to me this just seems like another "back in the old days" argument. Basketball changes. Back in the old days we didn't have the three-point line, or TV replay or things of the like. But things change. Therefore, what's your point?

    3. I understand this business of forcing people to the baseline and then boxing them in. I'm all for that. K's invention and a damn good one. But, calling a charge on the offensive guy if his shoulder makes contact with the guy who stepped in his way, when no advantage has been gained, is a nonsense call. That is Dean Smith's invention, not K's. They should do away with that call yesterday.
    What play are you referring to? The one where Nolan Smith stepped in the way and an offensive foul was called? Whichever way the call went, how can you say that no advantage was gained? Honestly, I don't understand how a rational person can say no advantage was gained on that play.

    4. In fact, the game would be safer and more elegant if there was no such thing as an "offensive" foul for charging. If an offensive player breaks the plane or whatever the term is and GETS AN ADVANTAGE, do like in choose up games. The other side gets the ball. Period. End of discussion (at least where we used to play, you could never challenge any call the other team made or we would still be playing our first game (a lot of lawyers in that group)). Defensive blocks, they would remain fouls.
    You act as if the rule is not currently being applied under the advantage/disadvantage principle. It is. That is how most fouls are determined. Furthermore, why do you want to penalize the defense more than the offense? Why, in your scenario, should an offensive player be penalized less for a similar type of contact? I'm interested in your answer.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    You may have a preference for how you like basketball to be played, and that's fine, but the fact is that your opinion has no bearing on the rules of basketball.
    I didn't hear (read) him to say otherwise.

    This gaining an advantage thing, doesn't flopping, by definition, create that?

    In other words, let's say I'm on the wing, and I drive to the baseline, encouraged by my defender. Another defender slides over, cuts off the path to the basket. I see him, continue going until we make contact, but not enough to knock him anywhere, just so I know where he is, and can spin around him, grabbing the ball between my right hand and forearm/wrist, scooping it in the direction I am spinning (I maintain my pivot foot which is my right), and rise for a jump shot from ten feet and sink it. The guy who cut me off would have no chance because I hooked my right foot outside his left before spinning and he is dead meat. Only, I look down and he is on the floor and a whistle has blown and I not only have a masterful basket taken away, but have been assessed a foul, not because I barreled into him, but because I gained an advantage by skill and guile only the guy flopped.

    The flop creates my advantage which creates a foul. Now, I know you will say that a discerning ref should be able to separate the wheat from the bs, but, in the heat of the game, we know what the call too often is going to be.

    That would be what me and my man object to. That would be some of why we would like the rule changed. Now I could never pull a move like that off (actually I used to all the time), splitting two defender's like that. But, my man, Earl, he made himself a legend doing exactly that.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I didn't hear (read) him to say otherwise.

    This gaining an advantage thing, doesn't flopping, by definition, create that?

    In other words, let's say I'm on the wing, and I drive to the baseline, encouraged by my defender. Another defender slides over, cuts off the path to the basket. I see him, continue going until we make contact, but not enough to knock him anywhere, just so I know where he is, and can spin around him, grabbing the ball between my right hand and forearm/wrist, scooping it in the direction I am spinning (I maintain my pivot foot which is my right), and rise for a jump shot from ten feet and sink it. The guy who cut me off would have no chance because I hooked my right foot outside his left before spinning and he is dead meat. Only, I look down and he is on the floor and a whistle has blown and I not only have a masterful basket taken away, but have been assessed a foul, not because I barreled into him, but because I gained an advantage by skill and guile only the guy flopped.

    The flop creates my advantage which creates a foul. Now, I know you will say that a discerning ref should be able to separate the wheat from the bs, but, in the heat of the game, we know what the call too often is going to be.

    That would be what me and my man object to. That would be some of why we would like the rule changed. Now I could never pull a move like that off (actually I used to all the time), splitting two defender's like that. But, my man, Earl, he made himself a legend doing exactly that.
    A quality ref, 9 times out of 10, will be able to separate the wheat from the BS. They do on a regular basis. It's called a "no-call".

    I'm not sure why that answer doesn't seem to satisfy you.

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
    i'm pretty sure that soccer got sick of their version of flopping and added a rule that if you intentionally flop you get a penalty. would you like a similar rule in college hoops?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    i'm pretty sure that soccer got sick of their version of flopping and added a rule that if you intentionally flop you get a penalty. would you like a similar rule in college hoops?
    In high school it's a technical foul. I'm not sure that's need in the college ranks. Refs are generally smart enough to recognize it, and as I've said, 9 times out of 10 when a player flops, it only gives the offensive player more of an advantage.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    A quality ref, 9 times out of 10, will be able to separate the wheat from the BS. They do on a regular basis. It's called a "no-call".

    I'm not sure why that answer doesn't seem to satisfy you.
    I got no beef with the refs; it is a fast, super fast, and way too physical game.

    That said, if they get the flop call right 9 out of 10 times, then I disagree as to what constitutes an advantage. I also seriously do not like the step in play at all. I think you know my reasons, we all have done this dance several times.

    I'm for changing the rule, not for trying to tweak it and have the NCAA tell refs how to let more things go or not. Just my view.

    My recommendation still stands.

  14. #14
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    I'd like to see the NBA dotted line, to prevent a player from drawing a charge while under the rim.

  15. #15
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    After Dean invented and fell in love with the "flop", he came up with a similar tactic that I thought far more invideous and soured me on him big time. I am talking about the hands up in the air, straight body, take a step towards the shooter, and bring the other foot adjacent, and let the shooter worry about where he was going to come down and whether he could walk afterwards.

    That tactic went on for years and I thought it the dirtiest legal play ever invented. I don't know why Carolina stopped using it, but am glad it happened.

    Stepping in to draw a charge in the cluster of the paint when the ball carrier is beginning to catch for a finish should be discouraged. That charge call before all else has to go. The little ring around the paint suggested by KB actually sounds like a realistic proposal. Me, I'm a dreamer.

  16. #16

    One more reason why college is better than the NBA

    I HATE the NBA circle where if you are anywhere remotely in the vicinity of the basket, it's perfectly acceptable, and even encouraged, just to plow over the defender. What does this beget? Big men just lowering the shoulder with the finesse of a sumo wrestler, a la Shaq, and wings driving in out of control. The college rule, and greater proclivity to call charging wherever it occurs, encourages defensive hustle and footwork and offensive control and skill.

    As for flop, you shouldn't necessarily have to fall over for there to be a charge, but you almost always have to fall over to get the call. Therefore, you better coach the techniqe. Also, falling over is often legitimate based on contact and to prevent injury. Heck, when I went to basketball camp at Duke during Coach K's first year, he taught how to draw charges.

    As for the Paulus flop on Youtube, he was defending something like a 4-on-1 fastbreak. He had absolutely no chance but to try to draw a charge. He tried, the offensive player avoided contact, and no foul was called. Humorous, but no big deal.

    The NBA should also go college on: the shot clock and the 5 second rule. This would decrease 1-on-1 play and 2-man games while the rest of the team spectates, as well as forced shots.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    What does you being raised by a person who played "organized ball" have to do with the rules of basketball? Precisely nothing.

    He was coached properly. He taught me in the front yard. He helped explain to me the rules as a kid. He helped coach me. Sort of the whole father/son thing. That is all I was saying.

  18. #18
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    Huh....

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Before you go tooting your devil blue horn, you should understand a few things about flopping:

    1. It is a relatively recent invention in the game, circa 1970. You are not going to like knowing its inventor. Can we all say "Dean Smith," boys and girls. It was invented by him at about the same time he installed that other great contribution to the modern game, the Four Corners. Heck, Dean literally made watching college basketball like watching people fish (does anyone watch those shows by the way). I mean, nothing happens for minutes on end when Carolina or a Carolina wanna be had the ball, and then when they go on defense, everybody's flopping around all over the court like fish out of water.

    2. Charges were always part of the game, but they were not to be farmed. They happened when someone tried to run through someone. They were rare. Contact of that sort was rare. It was a good thing that such contact was rare. The game kept moving, and people made plays, elegant ones. Some offensive guy put down his head, actually his shoulder, and tried to make like Jim Brown, the refs called a foul. Somebody stepped in front of somebody, the foul was usually on the stepper. There had to be meaningful contact for anything to be called. The idea that there could be "charges" away from the basket, much less by people not moving towards the basket, was ridiculous.

    3. I understand this business of forcing people to the baseline and then boxing them in. I'm all for that. K's invention and a damn good one. But, calling a charge on the offensive guy if his shoulder makes contact with the guy who stepped in his way, when no advantage has been gained, is a nonsense call. That is Dean Smith's invention, not K's. They should do away with that call yesterday.

    4. In fact, the game would be safer and more elegant if there was no such thing as an "offensive" foul for charging. If an offensive player breaks the plane or whatever the term is and GETS AN ADVANTAGE, do like in choose up games. The other side gets the ball. Period. End of discussion (at least where we used to play, you could never challenge any call the other team made or we would still be playing our first game (a lot of lawyers in that group)). Defensive blocks, they would remain fouls.

    Is Duke really accused of using it more than anybody? You guys should be glad. I bet it annoys the heck out of Dean everytime he hears that.
    And all this time I thought Vlade Divac invented the "flop"....go figure.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukestheheat View Post
    first, I get the distinct feeling that people who complain about 'flopping' are mostly waifs or whiny wafer types who never even played competitive basketball (ie, where you had a coach, and you had to go to practice, and you had to learn basic things like HOW TO TAKE A CHARGE).
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    What does you being raised by a person who played "organized ball" have to do with the rules of basketball? Precisely nothing.
    The original poster stated that the people complaining about flopping were not coached, etc. Which is basically a way of saying that unless have played organized ball, your opinion doesn't mean crap! In response, the poster you are replying too, prefaced his opinion with his playing credentials and background as being someone who has been coached so by the standard set, his opinion would mean crap. So although it may not have anything to do with the rules of hoops, it was appropriate, unlike your response.


    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    A quality ref, 9 times out of 10, will be able to separate the wheat from the BS. They do on a regular basis. It's called a "no-call".

    I'm not sure why that answer doesn't seem to satisfy you.
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    In high school it's a technical foul. I'm not sure that's need in the college ranks. Refs are generally smart enough to recognize it, and as I've said, 9 times out of 10 when a player flops, it only gives the offensive player more of an advantage.
    Oh how I wish your statistics were correct. I'd say that 9 is more like a 5. I'm all for calling legitimate charges but I see way too many flops being called.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Beem View Post
    I'd like to see the NBA dotted line, to prevent a player from drawing a charge while under the rim.
    Although I see the issue with the dotted line (players plowing thru when they get close to the basket) I like the idea of using this dotted line to limit flopping around the basket.

    I'm hate the flop. I think there needs to be many more no calls in college basketball. More no calls will lead to fewer flops. I'd like to see flops called as technical fouls.

    Then there's Duke's image in regards to the flop. You guys might want to talk to some non-Duke fans. I don't care who invented the flop, Duke has perfected it over the years and has used it to our advantage more than anyone. As a result our players are perceived as bunch of soft floppers by fans of other programs. Watch a non-Duke game in public around here and what you'll hear is stuff like this "That guy should play for Duke"...right after some flops.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Oh how I wish your statistics were correct. I'd say that 9 is more like a 5. I'm all for calling legitimate charges but I see way too many flops being called.
    I agree wholeheartedly. The flop is certainly missed more times than 1/10. I'd also add that the flop is probably missed about as regularly as the general charge/block call is called incorrectly on legitimate foul situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Although I see the issue with the dotted line (players plowing thru when they get close to the basket) I like the idea of using this dotted line to limit flopping around the basket.

    I'm hate the flop. I think there needs to be many more no calls in college basketball. More no calls will lead to fewer flops. I'd like to see flops called as technical fouls.
    Technicals would be nice, but realistically they could only be applied in truly egregious examples of flopping. Otherwise, you're back to the issue of the official accurately determining the difference between a flop and a real foul.

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