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Thread: FSU fan...

  1. #21
    I was at the game, as I have been at every game at FSU since they joined the league in 1992. (If you watched the game, you might have seen the fan in a blue DBR sweatshirt sitting on the aisle two rows behind the Duke bench catch a ball that flew out of bounds in the second half. That was me.) The FSU fans, as they typically do, complained loudly about every call against their team, shouted obscenities at Duke players and Duke fans, and grumbled at the end that the refs stole the game from them.

    I've attended many games at many venues in the past 40 years, and I've seen no place where there is a collection of fans less knowledgeable about the rules of college basketball. Even after 16 seasons in the ACC, I've seen no progress there. Until the JJ era, the FSU fans were at least relatively hospitable and respectful towards Duke and its fans. But the ugliness that their students started showing towards Redick has become a fixture--except now it's directed at Paulus or other players. And the sense that some of the FSU fans--not just the young ones--are capable of violent confrontation has become palpable.

    OTOH, Leonard Hamilton has been pretty classy. I think he plays to his fans a bit during the game, but I also believe he and K are quite friendly; and if you heard his postgame comments, he was as usual highly complimentary of Duke's team.

  2. #22

    You must be referring to the first shot at Paulus

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    That is absolutely ridiculous. Was it way out of line? Yes. But firstly, it was not a punch (hand was open). Secondly, there was very little ferocity in the swipe. Nothing remotely close to the punch that nearly killed Rudy T. That involved a man running full speed into a full-fledged, raring-back punch. This was a (relatively) light open-handed swipe.

    Reid was way out of line, but you are wildly overstating his actions to compare it to Kermit Washington's ill-fated punch.
    Maybe you are thinking of the first shot? I am referring to Reid, who walked several steps into the fray, then cocked his arm back (elbow high in the air), and struck down on the prone and defenseless Paulus. It most certainly looked like a punch to me. Not sure how you could possibly refer to it as a "light open-handed swipe." Reid just missed.

    That said, while a direct hit would have done much more serious damage, I'll concede that it may not have done the damage of Washington's cheap shot. A direct hit could have knocked Paulus out, though. Unless my eyes were completely deceiving me, I don't think that's an exaggeration.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymf7 View Post
    Maybe you are thinking of the first shot? I am referring to Reid, who walked several steps into the fray, then cocked his arm back (elbow high in the air), and struck down on the prone and defenseless Paulus. It most certainly looked like a punch to me. Not sure how you could possibly refer to it as a "light open-handed swipe." Reid just missed.

    That said, while a direct hit would have done much more serious damage, I'll concede that it may not have done the damage of Washington's cheap shot. A direct hit could have knocked Paulus out, though. Unless my eyes were completely deceiving me, I don't think that's an exaggeration.
    I was definitely thinking of the incident that resulted in the double technical. And it was absolutely open-handed, not a punch. Watch the tape of it again and look closely, from the mid-court camera angle. The hand was open. That's why I called it a swipe. It was aggressive, sure. But it was not a punch. And it is VERY unlikely that it would have knocked Paulus out. That would have taken a really huge swing or a really unfortunate angle of contact. The mid-court camera angle makes it pretty clear it's neither a punch nor nearly as ferocious a swing as you indicate.

    This doesn't change the fact that it was completely inappropriate and unacceptable. That much was never in question. But I think people have gone WAY overboard in their descriptions of the incident.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymf7 View Post
    Maybe you are thinking of the first shot? I am referring to Reid, who walked several steps into the fray, then cocked his arm back (elbow high in the air), and struck down on the prone and defenseless Paulus. It most certainly looked like a punch to me. Not sure how you could possibly refer to it as a "light open-handed swipe." Reid just missed.

    That said, while a direct hit would have done much more serious damage, I'll concede that it may not have done the damage of Washington's cheap shot. A direct hit could have knocked Paulus out, though. Unless my eyes were completely deceiving me, I don't think that's an exaggeration.
    I'm with CDu on this one, I think Reid's actions look a lot worse than they really were. Watching it live, I thought there was no doubt Reid swung with a closed fist, but after seeing the replays, it was not even close to a punch and the swipe that looked very violent from behind, was nowhere near as bad when looked at from the frontal angle.

    If you want my opinion, I think Reid was about to do serious damage until he realized he'd just come back from a 9-game suspension and accordingly held up just in the nick of time.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Classof06 View Post
    I'm with CDu on this one, I think Reid's actions look a lot worse than they really were. Watching it live, I thought there was no doubt Reid swung with a closed fist, but after seeing the replays, it was not even close to a punch and the swipe that looked very violent from behind, was nowhere near as bad when looked at from the frontal angle.

    If you want my opinion, I think Reid was about to do serious damage until he realized he'd just come back from a 9-game suspension and accordingly held up just in the nick of time.
    Completely agree. He rares back as though he's going to throw a haymaker (which is why the basket camera angle looks so bad), but seems to catch himself in time and delivers an open-handed swipe which lacked in "mustard." When you see the other angle (from mid-court or so) it's MUCH more tame. Still not an acceptable act, just not nearly as violent as has been suggested.

  6. #26
    I totally agree with Stray Gator's depicition of FSU fans. Sitting in press row right in front of the student section was an aboslutely atrocious expereince. Someone should remove those seats, because FSU students obviously aren't mature enough to enjoy such a privilage.

  7. #27
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    Trouble in Tallahassee

    Quote Originally Posted by grc5 View Post
    I totally agree with Stray Gator's depicition of FSU fans. Sitting in press row right in front of the student section was an aboslutely atrocious expereince. Someone should remove those seats, because FSU students obviously aren't mature enough to enjoy such a privilage.
    Don't the sportscasters also sit court side in front of the students? I remember Dick Vitale's comments after a student vaulted past him to get on the court when the 2006 game was about to end. Not a safe place to be!

    Friends (one a Duke alum and the other a former Duke employee) who have retired to Tallahassee refer to those who engage in such antics as the "Criminoles."

  8. #28
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    fan?

    fan? i thought that was mike patrick yelling obsecenities about duke......

  9. #29
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    Stray Gator brings up a salient point: Duke players have become the target for opposing fans of most any school out there.

    one guy at the game last night held up the sign to the camera that read 'Even God hates Duke'.

    it's a great testament to the greatness and dominance of our team, consistently, that stupid fans choose to 'hate' Duke and act they way that they do.

    it's also a very sad and troubling commentary when we get to the point that fans treat Duke players the way they do these days. for some reason, we've also grown callous to challenging the status quo when it comes to 'hatred' about Duke. we seem to let it go and mark it down as 'not that serious' but the Maryland fans are completely boorish, as are the Virginia Tech fans and also the FSU fans, to start with the ACC.

    I don't see the Carolina fans as boorish, at all, actually.

    But inside the ACC the number of teams with fans of the boorish nature are certainly growing, and this troubles me. It's ridiculous to treat people that way. I also think that at Duke we should GO BACK to helping other players off of the court when they're knocked down. At least when we win the game others may 'hate' us less.

    dth.

  10. #30
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    After reviewing the dvr of the tie-up frame by frame, it seems that #3 for Florida State is the one who hurt Paulus, on purpose, with a left forearm to Paulus' face (this is where the blood you notice on Paulus later comes from). Paulus then kicks at #3's legs. Reid then catches Paulus on the side of the neck and face with enough force to cause Paulus' head to move away and down. Reid's hand is not balled up but the contact with Paulus happens just as quickly as it looks like it happens in the above-basket replay - I imagine it hurt quite a bit. All of this action takes place well after the whistle stopping play.

    All this started when Paulus raked Reid's mask as he swiped down to knock the ball away from him. Did Paulus get the ball cleanly? Possibly, since the hand is supposed to be part of the ball. But Reid probably felt he was mugged. Paulus' slap at the ball probably did Reid's hands no good.

    Conclusion? Hard play, emotional reactions, boys being boys, thank goodness no one got badly hurt. #3 got in the best lick, Paulus the second-best, Reid came in last. It just wasn't Reid's night.

  11. #31
    Maybe I was wrong by my assumption that Hamilton was being a total jerk after the game. I could not read his lips, but IMO while Coach K was trying to talk to him, he just looked away and shrugged off anything Coach K was saying. I do understand that most coaches in the ACC, even the nation, don't look Coach K straight in the eye when he's shaking their hand after beating them. I also believe that Coach K's post-game comments about FSU and their kids were vintage Mike Krzyzewski! He ALWAYS praises the other team and says they have good kids. This is something I appreciate about Coach K, but also have come to realize that sometimes you have to understand that he's being as politically correct in that moment that you'll ever get from him! He shows class by complimenting the other team and their kids, unlike the FSU fans did during the game. I'm still waiting on a comment on Sims though. Please review the scrum on your DVR's and watch Sims forearm Paulus. He still hasn't been brought up by anyone else. I do admit I didn't catch Greg kicking at the FSU players so maybe I missed the cause of the forearm to Greg's head!

  12. #32
    Sorry killerleft, didnt' realize you had comment on Sims before I posted!

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by redick4pres View Post
    Maybe I was wrong by my assumption that Hamilton was being a total jerk after the game. I could not read his lips, but IMO while Coach K was trying to talk to him, he just looked away and shrugged off anything Coach K was saying. I do understand that most coaches in the ACC, even the nation, don't look Coach K straight in the eye when he's shaking their hand after beating them. I also believe that Coach K's post-game comments about FSU and their kids were vintage Mike Krzyzewski! He ALWAYS praises the other team and says they have good kids. This is something I appreciate about Coach K, but also have come to realize that sometimes you have to understand that he's being as politically correct in that moment that you'll ever get from him! He shows class by complimenting the other team and their kids, unlike the FSU fans did during the game. I'm still waiting on a comment on Sims though. Please review the scrum on your DVR's and watch Sims forearm Paulus. He still hasn't been brought up by anyone else. I do admit I didn't catch Greg kicking at the FSU players so maybe I missed the cause of the forearm to Greg's head!
    I think you're misreading coaches looking away from Coach K for them actually turning their ear to him so they can hear him. It looked to me like Hamilton was smiling and chatting with Coach K, and turning his ear toward Coach K to hear what he's saying. Arenas can tend to be loud after a game (even after a loss).

    I believe the hit was by Swann (not Sims), but I agree that that was the more painful blow to Paulus. And it was the shot that caused Paulus to kick at the FSU player.

  14. #34
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    I must have beat you by a few seconds. Sims? I couldn't remember his name. His forearm was a purposeful blow. He was the one who really deserved the "T".

  15. #35
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    North Florida and Montana

    It's not just FSU fans!We have become a coarse society.

    I couldn't go to the game (flu---first Duke game I have ever missed there), but sent my athletic son and his buddies who were the tall 16 year-olds sitting right between the bench.They were kind enough to let an older, very good friend from Tampa catch an errant bball as described in an earlier post in this thread.Heh,heh.
    FSU fans have become quite obnoxious and vulgar. However, I observe the same behavior by Florida fans, Hurricane supporters, and FSU partisans at games between any two of those schools.This behavior used to be isolated to pro games ( my experience was Celtic and Bruin games in the 1970s when I was in school there). You did not take a lady to the game lest she would get an earful of F-words and beer dumped by drunk fans. The local college games (Beanpot hockey with Harvard,BU,et al , and football and basketball) were enjoyable events free from vulgarity.
    Now, we have a coarse society. A generation of people have not been taught to eschew crude behavior.
    I have been engaged in a running commentary today with several local sportswriters over the degradation of college sports crowds' behavior and what to do about it.One action would be to follow the WAC example of assessing a technical against the team whose fans chant obscenities and display lewd or grossly unsportsmanlike behavior.School presidents,ADs, and coaches have the ability to control noxious behavior.They choose not to for several reasons, including that of realizing the imperative to establish a home-court advantage.Most important is the fact that there is very little downside or penalty to this behavior at games---nothing much that is a detriment to winning! College sports are big business because fixed costs are high and winning provides the revenue required to fund that overhead expense.Think nuclear race without a winning outcome as when America won the Cold War. There is no rational end in college sports!
    What happened last night would have shamed FSU folks(and its president) 30 years ago.So many fans judge the merits of their school by its sports program. I have not been asked about the quality of my students in years.Yet, everybody inquires about the football or bball teams. FSU,like a ton of football schools(including a few others in Florida), has become a life-support system for a sports program.In that environment,winning at any cost is the only rule.
    Best regards--Professor of ethics

  16. #36
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    Here is a tough question. Would you rather be associated with a school that recruits criminals and thugs (UConn, FSU) or a team which recruits staight arrow kids (Duke + many other teams)? I go with the latter time after time.

  17. #37
    Yes, didn't even think of that and you're probably right about the turning of the head. Just thought I saw a little sarcastic look on the face of Hamilton. And you are also right that it was Swann, not Sims. Sorry for the misinformation!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by killerleft View Post
    After reviewing the dvr of the tie-up frame by frame, it seems that #3 for Florida State is the one who hurt Paulus, on purpose, with a left forearm to Paulus' face (this is where the blood you notice on Paulus later comes from). Paulus then kicks at #3's legs. Reid then catches Paulus on the side of the neck and face with enough force to cause Paulus' head to move away and down. Reid's hand is not balled up but the contact with Paulus happens just as quickly as it looks like it happens in the above-basket replay - I imagine it hurt quite a bit. All of this action takes place well after the whistle stopping play.
    (I assume you have a high def DVR as I do.) From the third angle (from the side), it is clear that Swann balled up his fist, drew his arm back in a bowling motion, and delivered a blow to Paulus. If Paulus hadn't raised his head at that moment, he would have gotten a fist in the face instead of the forearm to the face. Paulus then pushed Swann off of him with his foot, while DeMarcus was behind Swann pulling him back. DeMarcus crossing in front of the scrum to get to Swann screened Valentine from seeing this first punch.

    Meanwhile (from the first angle, from the rear), Reid gets up, goes over to the scrum, balls up his fist, cocks his arm, and throws a punch. From the second angle (from the front), I can't tell if the fist is still closed at impact. It is obviously open after impact with the back of his hand toward Paulus. Maybe the fist opened on impact; maybe he realized that this was not a good idea and opened it himself; or maybe he hit Mims' arm or body first (he had to punch around Mims' arm to get to Paulus). I don't know.

    In both cases, however, there appears to be an intent to throw a punch, and both hit Paulus. IMHO both FSU players should be suspended for a game.

  19. #39
    I'm pretty sure I heard the guy yell something like "you should hit him harder next time" after Reid took the shot at Paulus...

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think you're misreading coaches looking away from Coach K for them actually turning their ear to him so they can hear him. It looked to me like Hamilton was smiling and chatting with Coach K, and turning his ear toward Coach K to hear what he's saying. Arenas can tend to be loud after a game (even after a loss).
    Yes, exactly. I just rewatched it, and they shook hands, did the arm embrace, then leaned in so their heads were together, which puts each person's ear next to the other's mouth for better hearing, and it's obviously impossible to look the other in the eye in that position. Hamilton is smiling the entire time they're talking. Not a huge grin, but definitely not shrugging K off.

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