Marquette vs. Wisconsin

[phaedrus]

Last night, Marquette played at Wisconsin, barely pulling out a victory after Wisconsin led late in the game. These are very different teams, but after watching the game last night I think they're very even. This begs the question: why did we blow out Wisconsin and squeek by Marquette?

One reason pops up immediately. We were at home against Wisconsin, and in Hawaii against Marquette. Or maybe we simply played better against Wisconsin, regardless of home court advantage (I didn't see the Marquette game, so I'm not sure about this).

But it's kind of odd to me that we were much more successful against the bigger team and struggled against the guard-oriented team. We also played much better against a big Illinois team than a Davidson team with great guards (though to be fair, Davidson is probably just better than Illinois). For all the talk of of struggling against bigger teams, the evidence is pointing the opposite way right now.

Obviously we'll see more when ACC play starts. Anyone have any thoughts?

[freedevil]

For what it's worth, Wisconsin didn't even bother to use its height advantage. Butch was just jacking up threes along with the other large men that they had. They didn't even try to post up that often.

[dkbaseball]

I remember only one three attempt by Butch. I thought he scored better in the low post yesterday, and was more aggressive generally, than I've ever seen him. But agreed that Wisconsin's bigs generally aren't low post scorers.

Bilas had it right on Wisconsin -- they're still trying to find themselves. The big problems I see at this point are finding ways for Trevon Hughes to be more of a distributor, and lighting a fire under Marcus Landry. He should be asserting himself far more than he is. Marquette was just much more physical yesterday, and it was especially ironic when Wes Matthews took the rebound away from Landry at the end of the game. They were the two best players in the state three years ago, and Matthews goes from Madison to Marquette, and Landry from Milwaukee to UW. UW figured they'd at least be getting the better inside player because Landry is three inches taller and a great leaper. But to this point, Phaedrus's estimation of him a couple of weeks ago is much more on target than mine.

So I think Duke just caught a Wisconsin team that's not quite sure yet how it wants to do business, on a night when all the Duke threes were dropping. Marquette looks to be about as quick as anyone, and I think they are going to be a handful for whoever is playing them, when they're motivated.

As for Duke playing against big teams generally -- while they still give up a lot of offensive rebounds, it seems to me that this bunch is feistier than the usual Duke squad in challenging the putbacks, and not as high a percentage are being converted. When Duke is in a zone, or a defense that isn't pulling the bigs far away from the basket, they are in a better position to make a burst underneath.

[sandinmyshoes]

Any number of possibilities and contributing factors. Marquette was at Wisconsin. Wisconsin was in Cameron. Might have been a bad night for Marquette and a good one for Wisconsin. And there is always the matchups. Some teams just have trouble with other teams or teams of a certain style, but thrive against other teams. It can be defensive style, offensive style, tempo and such.

That's why comparing scores is such a risky tactic.

[phaedrus]

And there is always the matchups. Some teams just have trouble with other teams or teams of a certain style, but thrive against other teams.

Exactly, that's the point. Can we look at these two opponents, and the outcomes of our games against them, and predict which matchups are going to be favorable or undesirable for us throughout the season?

[gep]

Any number of possibilities and contributing factors. Marquette was at Wisconsin. Wisconsin was in Cameron. Might have been a bad night for Marquette and a good one for Wisconsin. And there is always the matchups. Some teams just have trouble with other teams or teams of a certain style, but thrive against other teams. It can be defensive style, offensive style, tempo and such.

That's why comparing scores is such a risky tactic.

Also, both Marquette and Duke played their 3rd game in 3 days... in a neutral site in a land far, far, away... Hopefully, Marquette in Cameron would have been the same kind of blowout as Wisconson

[Troublemaker]

Last night, Marquette played at Wisconsin, barely pulling out a victory after Wisconsin led late in the game. These are very different teams, but after watching the game last night I think they're very even. This begs the question: why did we blow out Wisconsin and squeek by Marquette?

One reason pops up immediately. We were at home against Wisconsin, and in Hawaii against Marquette. Or maybe we simply played better against Wisconsin, regardless of home court advantage (I didn't see the Marquette game, so I'm not sure about this).

But it's kind of odd to me that we were much more successful against the bigger team and struggled against the guard-oriented team. We also played much better against a big Illinois team than a Davidson team with great guards (though to be fair, Davidson is probably just better than Illinois). For all the talk of of struggling against bigger teams, the evidence is pointing the opposite way right now.

Obviously we'll see more when ACC play starts. Anyone have any thoughts?

I think you make a really good point. Having good guards and good team quickness is mandatory to compete against Duke because of our defensive pressure, quickness in general, and the ability to spread teams out with our shooters. Wiscy was big but didn't have the team quickness to guard us, which was a problem because they missed shots and turned it over on the other end. Marquette was small and while we scored on them pretty well, they had the guards to go right back at our defensive pressure to match scores.

Looking ahead just a bit, Pitt might be a team that matches up well. I saw them play against Washington, and they go relatively small with a lot of 4-around-1 looks and can dribble-penetrate from the PG, SF, and PF positions pretty well. The Sam Young / Kyle Singler matchup should be a dandy and might be a matchup where Kyle posts up a bit more. Their guards are experienced and don't turn the ball over. And their "1" in the 4-around-1 look is always going to be either Dejuan Blair or Tyrell Biggs, both strong, stocky guys that really hammer the offensive boards and will test whoever we play at the 5. It should be a good matchup.

[Troublemaker]

To put it another way, I think teams that play two conventional bigs are at a disadvantage against Duke. Singler and King just hurt that look way too much. If I had to draw up an ideal team to matchup with Duke, it would have great guards, a versatile 4-man, and a powerful traditional 5-man. If Levance Fields and Ronald Ramon were better players (and they're pretty good already), Pitt would actually come pretty close. UNC actually fits the bill perfectly when they play Danny Green at the 4, which I expect them to do for at least half the game when they play us.

[dukestheheat]

phaedrus-

i think you ask a good question.

basic answer is this, in my opinion: Marquette is known for lightning-quick guards (they really ran all over us last year) and their guys are still lightning-quick. Our guard line-up early this year, while improved over last year, still is showing a need for improvement in the 'foot speed/lateral movement speed' and 'defense against the bullet-speed player' area.

Again, Duke is improved there versus last year, but still needs to show additional improvement.

Interestingly enough, if you notice Nolan Smith's insertion versus Michigan really helped Duke slow/neutralize the Wolverine's PG and Duke sparked off of that!

So, the bottom-line is this: Duke is very fast overall and versus teams that are bigger we will have more of an advantage; versus teams with bullet-speed we are much more closely matched and that game comes down to defense, turnovers and free throws.

(remember what 'they say' about 'opinions'; everyone has one like you know what...).

dth.

[HumboldtDevil]

Wow, I just spent 15 minutes writing my first post and it didn't get posted because it made me log-in again. Anyway, hopefully this will be my first DBR Forums post. Since I just wasted a long and well-reasoned post I'll keep this one much shorter.

- Wisconsin-Marquette was possibly the best played game I've seen so far this season. From start to finish both teams played well and it wasn't ugly at all (i.e. not a foul, turnover, or brick fest).

- Small, quick teams will probably match up better with Duke than bigger teams. It's still early and Wisconsin didn't use its size effectively against Duke like it did against Marquette, so it is hard to tell. Plus there just aren't many teams that can impose their will in the paint anymore. I agree with troublemaker that UNC will match up well with Duke. They have the athleticism on the perimeter and have big, athletic guys inside. We all know that Hansbrough is a handful.

- Why was the Marquette-Wisconsin game close when Duke struggled with Marquette and routed Wisconsin? There are a few factors: where the games were played, when they were played, matchups, Wisconsin used its size better over the weekend, Duke didn't shoot many three-pointers against Marquette. All I know is that Marquette and Wisconsin will both win a lot of games and be good for Duke's RPI.

[dkbaseball]

Wow, I just spent 15 minutes writing my first post and it didn't get posted because it made me log-in again. Anyway, hopefully this will be my first DBR Forums post. Since I just wasted a long and well-reasoned post I'll keep this one much shorter.

Whenever you write a post of a certain length, the system will require you to log in again. After you've done this and the screen has settled down, go back to your post and submit it again. (Being long-winded, I'm quite familiar with this process. Lost my own first post not knowing what was going on.)

I agree that the UW-Marquette game was well played, and both teams will probably be ranked at the end of the season.

[phaedrus]

But to this point, Phaedrus's estimation of him a couple of weeks ago is much more on target than mine.

You might be right to concede this, but it does look (Duke game notwithstanding) that Wisconsin is a lot better than I gave them credit for initially. Good call - hope they continue to improve.

[HumboldtDevil]

Good to know dkbaseball.

When that happened earlier it erased my post from the prompt so I had to do it over. I posted in another thread a minute ago (a long one) and the same thing happened, but once I signed in my post was up.

Usually copy my text before posting long thoughts, but forgot to earlier. It's always the times I forget to copy...

[-jk]

Good to know dkbaseball.

When that happened earlier it erased my post from the prompt so I had to do it over. I posted in another thread a minute ago (a long one) and the same thing happened, but once I signed in my post was up.

Usually copy my text before posting long thoughts, but forgot to earlier. It's always the times I forget to copy...

If you check the box to remember your login info, you should stay logged in.

-jk