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  1. #1

    Why doesn't Scheyer start?

    In team stats, he's No. 2 in minutes played (but only No. 6 in turnovers), No. 4 in scoring, No. 4 in rebounds, No. 3 in assists, No. 1 in three point shooting percentage, No. 1 in free throw shooting percentage, and tied at No. 3 in steals.

    He reminds me of Quinn's ability to get weak side rebounds on the defensive end.

    Some of his smart plays this year (like the tap out, which IMO was deliberate) have been Shane-esque.

    More often than not he is playing at the end of games and other critical situations.

    I guess the problem is that if he starts, who doesn't? DeMarcus? We need his leadership out there, and not starting would be symbolically bad. Lance? He's improving and productive, and hurting his self confidence would be bad. And what does it mean to start in the K system?

    He's got to be the best sixth man in the ACC right now. He's doing something RIGHT NOW that makes Duke Basketball Duke Basketball, with a capital B.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (Buckhead)
    Seems like a good, fair question.

    Probably just a matter of strategy. K likely doesn't consider Jon to be a bench guy. Just a guy who comes in to join the team effort at a different time in the game.

    Traditional thinking: All bench players are lesser than those that start.

    Strategic thinking: Keep a couple of ringers on the bench to balance out the full game effort.

    My two cents in one minute or less.

    -EarlJam

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bird View Post
    he's No. 2 in minutes played
    Not tryin to be a smart*** here but if he's #2 in minutes played then does it really matter if he starts or not

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (Buckhead)
    Quote Originally Posted by kmspeaks View Post
    Not tryin to be a smart*** here but if he's #2 in minutes played then does it really matter if he starts or not
    That was sort of my point. I don't think K sees him as a bench player.

    -EJ

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    I agree with EJ (and other posters) that who starts is really not that important... we seem to be a bit preoccupied with it here.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kmspeaks View Post
    Not tryin to be a smart*** here but if he's #2 in minutes played then does it really matter if he starts or not
    Somebody could argue that starting allows your best players to play more minutes at 100% since they are should be well rested at tipoff. For example, 30 minutes of playing time is spread out over 40 minutes of gametime if its a starter, whereas 30 minutes of playing time may be spread out over 35 minutes of gametime if it's somebody coming off the bench with 15 on the clock in the first half. So, it'd be more advantageous to have that player to start b/c the rest will come in between playing rather than at the beginning of the game when the player should be well rested anyways. I think this is a pretty poor argument (especially if a player hasn't shown any fatigue in games), and I myself don't think it really matters if Scheyer starts or not. I'm just saying that's the rationale some may have.

  7. #7
    Not trying to start an argument or get flamed...I adore Jon but wonder if I'm seeing a slight hesitation in his shot outside the three line? He's had a hitch as he steps away from the defender. Probably looking for the better angle that another teammate might have but he's not quite as automatic as he was last year.
    Or, yes, I could be absolutely wrong.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Check who finishes the games. Jon is right there in most cases.

  9. #9
    Indeed, you are correct, sir.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (Buckhead)
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Not trying to start an argument or get flamed...I adore Jon but wonder if I'm seeing a slight hesitation in his shot outside the three line? He's had a hitch as he steps away from the defender. Probably looking for the better angle that another teammate might have but he's not quite as automatic as he was last year.
    Or, yes, I could be absolutely wrong.
    I can see that. There's been a few times this year where he's looked hesitant all around. Kind of lost. But that was mostly in the first four games. He's looked more confident over the past few.

    Even when I thought he looked a bit passive, his stats were still up. He has the ability to baffle (i.e., "Jon didn't play so well today. What? He scored 21? Ten rebounds? Oh.")

    -EarlJam

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Somebody could argue that starting allows your best players to play more minutes at 100% since they are should be well rested at tipoff. For example, 30 minutes of playing time is spread out over 40 minutes of gametime if its a starter, whereas 30 minutes of playing time may be spread out over 35 minutes of gametime if it's somebody coming off the bench with 15 on the clock in the first half. So, it'd be more advantageous to have that player to start b/c the rest will come in between playing rather than at the beginning of the game when the player should be well rested anyways. I think this is a pretty poor argument (especially if a player hasn't shown any fatigue in games), and I myself don't think it really matters if Scheyer starts or not. I'm just saying that's the rationale some may have.

    Counter arguement:

    Keeping a guy on the bench condenses his playing time, thus keeping him more "in da flow". For example... if a starter plays 30 minutes of a 40 minute game from opening tip to the end of the game, then there are 10 minutes of gametime where he is sitting after having already been in the game. If a player comes off the bench with only 34 minutes of game time left and plays 30 minutes, then he's only sitting for 4 minutes after he gets his motor running at game speed... thus being more "in da flow".

    Oooooohhh... I just blew your mind!

    (Sorry, I am finished with work, but not leaving for a while)

  12. #12
    Same reason Manu Ginobili doesn't start.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlJam View Post
    Even when I thought he looked a bit passive, his stats were still up. He has the ability to baffle (i.e., "Jon didn't play so well today. What? He scored 21? Ten rebounds? Oh.")

    -EarlJam
    that is the definition of jon scheyer. last year and this past summer I always used to look at his stats and go "he averaged double digit scoring last year?!?!" he's just a gamer, or whatever stupid colloquialism you want to use, and he quietly fills the stat sheet. he's definitely a glue guy for us, but he scores more than a typical glue guy.

    why doesn't he start. eh, i mean, gerald at his best and jon at his best, I have to take gerald. but yea, its not that important, especially with all the subbing we are doing. Grant didn't start as a freshman or soph really, and he was arguably the best player on the team!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Not trying to start an argument or get flamed...I adore Jon but wonder if I'm seeing a slight hesitation in his shot outside the three line? He's had a hitch as he steps away from the defender. Probably looking for the better angle that another teammate might have but he's not quite as automatic as he was last year.
    Or, yes, I could be absolutely wrong.
    K has yelled at Jon many times this year to "shoot the ball!" He was less hesitant the last couple of games, but Taylor King could get off three shots before Jon gets off his first one.

    I think one reason Lance starts instead of going "small" with Jon starting in his place is
    1) Lance seems to start games well but then disappears - might as well get what we can out of him while he develops
    2) Jon has embraced his 6th man status and is having a phenomenal year so far. And as you noted, he's second in minutes played which is really what counts.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Close to the Gothic Playground!
    simply this, i think: the boy is so much more powerful coming off of the pine for duke this year!

    GO DUKE!

    dth.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    that is the definition of jon scheyer. last year and this past summer I always used to look at his stats and go "he averaged double digit scoring last year?!?!" he's just a gamer, or whatever stupid colloquialism you want to use, and he quietly fills the stat sheet. he's definitely a glue guy for us, but he scores more than a typical glue guy.

    why doesn't he start. eh, i mean, gerald at his best and jon at his best, I have to take gerald. but yea, its not that important, especially with all the subbing we are doing. Grant didn't start as a freshman or soph really, and he was arguably the best player on the team!
    For the record, Grant started 31 of 36 games as a freshman and 24 of 33 as a soph, when he actually averaged more minutes (30.3 vs. 24.6). But the point about it not mattering is right - Jon is #2 on the team in mpg, is usually on the floor at the end of games, and together with Henderson and Nelson is part of the top wing rotation in the ACC.

  17. #17

    Like him coming off the bench

    Duke is a better team with him coming off the bench. He comes in against tired or second string players, he brings instant offense and can do all the little things. The fact that he is fine with this and responding by playing great - suggests that Jon is more about winning than getting stats. Scheyer and King are the difference for Duke this year. There is little drop off with those guys in the game for the starters. When McClure comes back- Duke will be even stronger. I also expect that Smith with continue to get better. Unfortunatley Marty is out- so hopefully everyone else stays healthy.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    I have a sickening sense that some are pushing Jon to be the new Marty.
    The critical point has been made -- it is more important who finishes than who starts.
    I also like the thought that LT does better early, so why not use him?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoring Point View Post
    For the record, Grant started 31 of 36 games as a freshman and 24 of 33 as a soph, when he actually averaged more minutes (30.3 vs. 24.6). But the point about it not mattering is right - Jon is #2 on the team in mpg, is usually on the floor at the end of games, and together with Henderson and Nelson is part of the top wing rotation in the ACC.
    my bad. shoulda check my #'s. I guess I saw that footage of the UNC vs duke ACC championship game that someone posted from 92 I think it was and grant didn't start that game and so I extrapolated from there...

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    I have a sickening sense that some are pushing Jon to be the new Marty.
    I don't know what you mean by that but you are scaring me. please clarify.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California

    Thumbs up 3 words

    Quote Originally Posted by bird View Post
    In team stats, he's No. 2 in minutes played (but only No. 6 in turnovers), No. 4 in scoring, No. 4 in rebounds, No. 3 in assists, No. 1 in three point shooting percentage, No. 1 in free throw shooting percentage, and tied at No. 3 in steals.

    He reminds me of Quinn's ability to get weak side rebounds on the defensive end.

    Some of his smart plays this year (like the tap out, which IMO was deliberate) have been Shane-esque.

    More often than not he is playing at the end of games and other critical situations.

    I guess the problem is that if he starts, who doesn't? DeMarcus? We need his leadership out there, and not starting would be symbolically bad. Lance? He's improving and productive, and hurting his self confidence would be bad. And what does it mean to start in the K system?

    He's got to be the best sixth man in the ACC right now. He's doing something RIGHT NOW that makes Duke Basketball Duke Basketball, with a capital B.

    nelson and henderson

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