Baseball Trades

[tombrady]

HOLY cr@p. the Tigers get Cabrera AND Willis from the Marlins for a boatload of mLers.

That offense is going to be str8 nasty no matter what, and the pitching has a shot to be darn good too.

Also, of course, the Red Sox are working hard to get Santana from the Twins. Some sources say the deal is all but done.

[Channing]

wow - that is a ridiculous lineup right now

[YmoBeThere]

I guess this means that the Senior Circuit now equates to AAA ball against the likes of the Red Sox, Yankees, and now Tigers.

[Mal]

It already did, Cardinals World Series notwithstanding. Don't forget the Indians and Angels, too.

So help me higher power, if the Twins come away from a deal with the BoSox with a guy named after a children's cereal in centerfield, I don't know how I'll ever forgive new GM Bill Smith. Whatever prospect(s) round out that deal better turn into solid major leaguers, 'cause I am emphatically not a believer in Crisp. Frankly, I'd rather have Hughes than Lester, too. I'm shocked they're this far along on a deal - I really figured the Sox were just trying to up the price the Yankees had to pay for Johan by bluffing.

I hear the A's are asking the Yankees for basically the same thing the Twins were, only for Dan Haren. No offense to Haren, but that should make Cashman go running back to the Twins to cut a deal pronto.

[Deslok]

It already did, Cardinals World Series notwithstanding. Don't forget the Indians and Angels, too.

So help me higher power, if the Twins come away from a deal with the BoSox with a guy named after a children's cereal in centerfield, I don't know how I'll ever forgive new GM Bill Smith. Whatever prospect(s) round out that deal better turn into solid major leaguers, 'cause I am emphatically not a believer in Crisp. Frankly, I'd rather have Hughes than Lester, too. I'm shocked they're this far along on a deal - I really figured the Sox were just trying to up the price the Yankees had to pay for Johan by bluffing.

I hear the A's are asking the Yankees for basically the same thing the Twins were, only for Dan Haren. No offense to Haren, but that should make Cashman go running back to the Twins to cut a deal pronto.

There's a reason why the A's are asking for pretty much the same price as Santan for Haren. Santana needs to be signed by whomever trades for him, at around $20 million a season(or Santana won't be waiving that no trade clause and will just go on the open market). Haren is price controlled for the next 3 seasons at something like $5 million per. For a strong #1 starter that's a nice length and great terms to be working with. The Red Sox currently feel pretty fortunate to have a stud ace in Beckett wrapped up at $10.6 million per season through 2010.

Santana is obviously a better pitcher, but getting a player like Haren is a big plus to begin with, getting him at that amount of money is a huge bonus, as it frees up money to be spent elsewhere.

[Mal]

Yeah, I figured I should maybe have looked into Haren's contract status, but was too lazy. Nonetheless, Haren's a lifetime 49-44 with a 3.82 over his career. Santana's just a year older, and is 93-44 with a 3.22. Outside of last season, Santana's a much better pitcher. We're talking the best pitcher in the game over the last 4 seasons vs. a previously pretty mediocre guy coming off a career year (in which he still lost 6 of his last 8 decisions).

Besides, since when do the Yankees care about saving a little money? They want the ego satisfaction of getting Santana in pinstripes.

The Beckett factor shouldn't be overlooked, as you mention, though. Boston would have to sign Santana for far more than Beckett, the reigning World Series MVP, makes. Beckett would likely get demoted to the No. 2 slot, too. I don't get the impression he's egotistical, but that's still potentially a big psychological issue.

[IUGrad03]

As a new resident of the Detroit Metro/Ann Arbor area, I say thank you Marlins! Beautiful, just beautiful.

[YmoBeThere]

Haren = right, Santana = lefty... which always gets you more pay for the same numbers it seems.

[YmoBeThere]

Don't forget the Indians and Angels, too.

Best NL team = maybe sixth in the AL

Don't the NL guys have any money?

[blazindw]

HOLY cr@p. the Tigers get Cabrera AND Willis from the Marlins for a boatload of mLers.

That offense is going to be str8 nasty no matter what, and the pitching has a shot to be darn good too.

Also, of course, the Red Sox are working hard to get Santana from the Twins. Some sources say the deal is all but done.

That was a wonderful surprise to come home to, next to my new HDTV coming and our cable being restored after the high winds of the past couple of days. As a fellow Detroiter, I love the trade, and I wish I still lived in the area so I could get season tickets to watch those guys play ball next year! The Tigers just became the favorite to make it to the ALCS next year, if not win the whole ball of wax.

[Jim3k]

Yeah, I figured I should maybe have looked into Haren's contract status, but was too lazy. Nonetheless, Haren's a lifetime 49-44 with a 3.82 over his career. Santana's just a year older, and is 93-44 with a 3.22. Outside of last season, Santana's a much better pitcher. We're talking the best pitcher in the game over the last 4 seasons vs. a previously pretty mediocre guy coming off a career year (in which he still lost 6 of his last 8 decisions).

Well, Mal, as an A's fan I do have some quibbles with your assessment of Haren. I don't want to lose him now that he's developing as well as he is. As Coach K says, they all run their own race. Comparing Haren to Santana on a career basis doesn't lead to much. And even on a 1-year basis, I'd say Santana is the better pitcher.

Still, Haren can, and has, held his own. He was an all-star this year for the first time. He's going to get even better

His year is fairly well set out here in MLB's splits screen:

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_...717&statType=2

As you can see the first part of the year was very good. But the second half you are concerned with doesn't reflect that the only weak teams he pitched against were the Orioles and Tampa Bay. The others were Yankees, Minnesota, Cleveland, Detroit (twice) and White Sox and the Angels (3 times). There were also some scattered games with Seattle, Toronto and Texas.

The A's suffered from a serious lack of offense during that half (hey, all year), so Dan's performance needs to be viewed in that light. If you ask the opposing batters, they generally agree that since Dan has been an A, he's been very good. I watched him pitch in four or five games last year and must say that he's big, strong and has nasty stuff. The strongest thing he brings seems to be toughness. I don't believe he's ever hurt himself. I say that knowing that pitchers have short careers due to arm injuries. I don't think this guy will hurt himself. That alone makes him very valuable. He's started 34 games three years in a row. Plus, he's won at least 14 games each of those years.

He's a horse. And that's why he's valuable.

And that's why I'd like to hang on to him. Bean doesn't think like me, however.

[Deslok]

Bean's thinking is spot on though. With a total lack of free agent options on the market, a quality starter will fetch a much greater return this year than next(when you have folks like Sabathia due to hit the market). And since he is still under contract for a few more years, if no team is willing to offer up a deal you like, Bean has the option of saying no and moving ahead with Haren on the roster for next year. Whereas the Twins are in a tougher position, because if they don't move Santana now, they will only be getting draft picks for him at the end of next season. And so the buyers have some leverage in acquiring him(which is why I'm not sure I buy the Yankees deadline as anything more than a pressure ploy to try to bring the Twins price down).

[Olympic Fan]

HOLY cr@p. the Tigers get Cabrera AND Willis from the Marlins for a boatload of mLers.

It's a great short-term deal for the Tigers, but that "boatlead of mLers" includes the two best prospects in the Tigers system -- including Andrew Miller, the former UNC pitcher who had some impressive outings for the Tigers this year.

Obviously, the Tigers are pulling a Yankee -- decimating their minor league system to make a title run. Combine this trade with the Renteria deal (two top prospects to get an aging all-star shortstop) and it looks like now or never for the Tigers.

As for the Yankees and their pursuit of Santana ... Gammons said they offered Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a minor leaguer, but the Twins demanded Hughes, Cabrera and Ian Kennedy.

I'm glad the Yankees wouldn't make that move. I don't mind giving up one of our big three youngsters as the centerpiece of a package to get Santana (or Haren), but NOT two of the three.

[Mal]

Agreed that the Twins are probably getting a little greedy demanding Kennedy, too. I would have been perfectly happy with the Hughes, Cabrera, prospect deal. Deslok is right, of course, in that the Twins aren't in as strong a position as they would have had they started dealing a year ago, with 2 years left on Santana's contract. They just couldn't have foreseen, coming off 2006 when they finished 72-40 or whatever it was, that they'd be out of the race by August 15 last season. If they could have seen that coming, they would have dealt him last winter (well, maybe - Bill Smith would have, Terry "Incremental Moves" Ryan perhaps not). They're still in something of a win-win, though, even if they can't get a deal done, since they'll still get the final year of his services. A 1-2 of Santana and a (fingers crossed) healthy Liriano, newly-acquired Delmon Young, and freed up money from Hunter's expensive contract to plug some holes, they could feel pretty decent going in to the season. Except for the fact they're in the same division with Cleveland and Detroit.

Jim3K, maybe "mediocre" was a poor choice of words. I don't mean to disparage Haren, he's a good pitcher who has been a workhorse the last couple years. I do agree that his durability and health are incredibly important factors in today's landscape. Although Santana's never had any arm troubles, either. I have to slightly discount the "strength of schedule" credit you give him for the second half last year, as the Twins and White Sox (you listed them among the Yankees and Tigers and the like) had terribly anemic offenses, especially in the last half of the season. As for whether he'll continue to get better, who knows? He may have peaked last season for all we know. His '06 was definitely weaker than his '05, so it hasn't been a completely straight upward progression. Nonetheless, to finish a full season in the American League of today with a 3.07 ERA is an impressive year, so I don't want to look like I'm taking that away from him.

Regardless, the A's have a fine pitcher to lead their staff, or to trade for good value based on his contract, as Deslok pointed out up thread. I just feel that if presented with giving up the same guys for Haren that they would for Santana, the Yankees, for whom money is never an object, might balk.

[jimsumner]

Olympic Fan is correct. Miller and Maybin are top prospects. No guarantees on either one but the Marlins are cherry picking the top prospects in the Tigers system.

Cabrera is a great hitter and he's young enough to remain so for another decade. But he's a lousy defensive third baseman, has weight and conditioning issues, and there are some questions about a proclivity for hitting the nightlife.

And Willis' career has been heading in the wrong direction for several years. Check out his stats from last season and see if you think he's any much better than an average pitcher. He's young enough to turn it around and maybe a change of pace is what he needs. But it's a long way from a sure thing.

Trading top prospects is risky as is trading for top prospects. Many of them disappear into mediocrity. But some of them become Jeff Bagwell. So you have to be careful.

[Jim3k]

Jim3K, maybe "mediocre" was a poor choice of words. I don't mean to disparage Haren, he's a good pitcher who has been a workhorse the last couple years. I do agree that his durability and health are incredibly important factors in today's landscape. *** I have to slightly discount the "strength of schedule" credit you give him for the second half last year, as the Twins and White Sox (you listed them among the Yankees and Tigers and the like) had terribly anemic offenses, especially in the last half of the season. As for whether he'll continue to get better, who knows? He may have peaked last season for all we know. His '06 was definitely weaker than his '05, so it hasn't been a completely straight upward progression. Nonetheless, to finish a full season in the American League of today with a 3.07 ERA is an impressive year, so I don't want to look like I'm taking that away from him.

Regardless, the A's have a fine pitcher to lead their staff, or to trade for good value based on his contract, as Deslok pointed out up thread. I just feel that if presented with giving up the same guys for Haren that they would for Santana, the Yankees, for whom money is never an object, might balk.

Point taken on discounting the Twins and the White Sox, though I am not as sanguine as you are. The other issue which Haren had to live with was the loss of half his defensive infield. The A's were known for their defense until both Crosby at short and Chavez at third went down. Their replacements are fun to watch, but haven't measured up to either of them yet. Crosby may be the most underrated shortstop in the majors. His hitting, OTOH, should have improved by now, but hasn't. Yet he and Ellis are an unbelievably good team around second. Ellis should have some golden gloves, but is ignored, despite his fielding percentage. Chavez, when healthy, is probably the best third baseman in baseball and has the golden gloves to prove it; he also has very good power. Losing the left side of the infield cost the A's a lot of games, including several that Haren could have won.

BTW, the Contra Costa Times today says Beane has no difficulty in hanging on to Haren and/or Blanton. He wants to get his money's worth.

[YmoBeThere]

Not a trade exactly, but the Dodgers inked a two year deal with Andruw Jones. Speculation is that they will move Juan Pierre to left and one of their younger players to right which potentially frees up being able to trade some youth for a starting pitcher.

[toughbuff1]

Not a trade exactly, but the Dodgers inked a two year deal with Andruw Jones. Speculation is that they will move Juan Pierre to left and one of their younger players to right which potentially frees up being able to trade some youth for a starting pitcher.

I'm thinking will allow them to include Kemp in a deal for Bedard.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

As for the Yankees and their pursuit of Santana ... Gammons said they offered Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a minor leaguer, but the Twins demanded Hughes, Cabrera and Ian Kennedy.

I'm glad the Yankees wouldn't make that move. I don't mind giving up one of our big three youngsters as the centerpiece of a package to get Santana (or Haren), but NOT two of the three.

As a footnote, yesterday the Yankees traded Taylor Clippard, who made a brief appearance with the Yankees early last season when they were auditioning every pitcher in their minor league system that wasn't hurting, to the Washington Nationals for another minor leaguer I've never heard of. Hope it works out for both pitchers.

[mr. synellinden]

I was disappointed about that trade because I liked Clippard and thought he could use one more season in AAA and then be part of the rotation in 2009 when Mussina and Pettitte (likely) are gone.

But the Yankees have a lot of potential young starters in the farm system. I am glad to see them hanging onto their young pitching talent - I think Hughes and Kennedy are potential All-Star and even Cy Young candidate pitchers from what I have seen in their limited experience. I am also very happy they are, for now, keeping Cabrera. I don't think Cabrera gets enough credit for his defense - he has one of the best arms in the league and plays a great CF. Being forced to move Damon back to CF would be a major defensive liability for a team that is shaky at the corner OF positions.

I really believe Chamberlain Hughes and Kennedy have Smoltz-Glavine-Maddux type potential and can be cornerstones of the rotation for the next 10-12 years.

Regarding the Tigers - they scare me now but if I were a Tiger fan I would be worried about Cabrera eating himself out of stardom. He's only 24 - he shouldn't be gaining that much weight at this age. Willis's last season is also a concern but pitching in that stadium will make any pitcher better.