An Interesting Twist on "Stall-Ball"

[Jumbo]

Tonight, K went to "stall-ball" relatively early -- with more than six minutes left in the game. But whether it worked (it pretty much did) is irrelevant. Instead, his intent was interesting.

Basically, K held open auditions for the high pick-and-roll, using the small lineup we've all figured might finish close games (Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler). We talk all the time about K using blowouts to work on various strategies, and tonight was a chance to figure out how best to run the high pick-and-roll late in the shot clock. So, tonight, various players got a chance. Scheyer got to run it with Singler on at least three straight possessions. Then it was Henderson's turn. Nelson ran it a couple of times. Paulus, for the most part, didn't -- I can only assume that a) he has the most experience doing so and b) he's probably not the most effective guy with the ball in his hands, so K was testing other options. And make no mistake -- K was clearly directing who would run this set each trip down the floor.

So, this was a great opportunity for K to learn about his team. And it was great for us, as fans, too. I liked what I saw out of the Scheyer/Singler pick-and-roll the most, because Scheyer saw the rest of the floor better than Nelson or Henderson. Gerald and DeMarcus were both a bit more effective getting into the paint, and Scheyer was a more effective outlet to spread the floor. But right now, game on the line, I think I want Scheyer running that screen with Singler with Nelson, Henderson and Paulus spreading the floor, ready to shoot, drive or crash the offensive boards.

[Lord Ash]

I noticed that too; K was REALLY directing things from the sidelines late, giving each guy a spot to go to and all that. Very interesting to see.

[dw0827]

What did you think of the spacing during that period? It seemed to me that three guys were bunched together in a corner (or quadrant) alot. I thought they were getting in each other's way. I assume the set was on purpose. Seemed like a different set than what I recall us using. Am I just not remembering correctly?

Anyway, its good to see him experimenting . . . because it's clear that it still needs work.

Oh, it was interesting to me that we pulled up for a few 3's instead of driving to the basket. Looked like that was purposeful, too.

Amazing that we could toy with a Big Ten team like that.

[Mike Corey]

Once we find the guy that does that the best, the "stall-ball" will be deadly, slowly suffocating opposing teams as we did yesterday becoming a staple of every Duke game.

Successful stall-ball is predicated on the fact that points can come with five seconds or less on the shot clock, every single time down the floor...and that requires an outstanding penetrator that can score and pass off the dribble.

We didn't have that a year ago. We have at least three guys that can do that now...and guys waiting on the wings (and on the blocks) ready to capitalize on the opportunities such penetration will inevitably create.

[loran16]

Couple things:

1. Stall ball generally bothers me when the lead is ~10 points or so. Because at that point you often hinder your chance to add to the lead and the other team can catch up in a few possessions. This means that while you are taking time off the clock, the other team can take its time on its offensive end if they can stop you defensively. It was one of the more frustrating things to see from K last year..to go into stallball with like 5 minutes left when we were only up 10. When you're up 20-23 on the other hand, stall-ball is a lot more effective, because even if you miss a bunch of shots, they have to rush to score on their end.

2. Wisconsin seemed to be thrown off guard by the change to stall-ball...in the first half, when Paulus/smith had the ball at half court, the wisconsin players stayed back close to the 3 pt line (so as to prevent us from driving i suspect). But when we switched to stall ball, they had to pressure our guards, and we seemed to easily be able to pass the ball or go around them.

In fact in the most amusing segment, one player (iirc it was scheyer but not sure) actually dribbled in a circle around his defender. Which was pretty hilarious.

3. I think Having either of our big men out there during stall ball is probably the wrong tactic, and thus i didnt see them out there much during the 2nd half late...Instead we saw Demarc, Singler, Paulus, Smith, Henderson, and Scheyer rotating around, and even went double point guard with around 3 minutes left. It was highly effective.

[jjasper0729]

Yes, that was Scheyer channelling Curly Neal.

It also led to a decline in the number of assists in the second half. i noticed as the first half went along and the second half was getting going that there was a small gap between baskets and assists.

After the move to the stall and the screen/roll, the assists got fewer as there were more drives through the defense. when Wisconsin didn't rotate over to help, the driver just went up with it. Scheyer did this a couple of times, as did Demarcus and Gerald to great effect.

[Troublemaker]

That one time Scheyer drove to the front of the rim and layed it in was good for him. He needs to be more confident driving and finishing because having multiple guards that can penetrate and make short shots will somewhat offset not having a true low-post threat. I mean, the reason we all want post scoring is because it's more consistent than outside shooting, it draws fouls, and it draws defenders away from outside shooters. Players that can consistently penetrate and finish can accomplish all those same things. Right now we have three players who are pretty good at it in Kyle, Markie and Gerald (Kyle and G can be outstanding at it next season as they continue to hone). Scheyer and Smith have the potential to be pretty good at it as well, so their development and getting comfortable in this area are things to watch for the rest of the season.

[Genedoc]

Tonight, K went to "stall-ball" relatively early -- with more than six minutes left in the game. But whether it worked (it pretty much did) is irrelevant. Instead, his intent was interesting.

Basically, K held open auditions for the high pick-and-roll, using the small lineup we've all figured might finish close games (Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler). We talk all the time about K using blowouts to work on various strategies, and tonight was a chance to figure out how best to run the high pick-and-roll late in the shot clock. So, tonight, various players got a chance. Scheyer got to run it with Singler on at least three straight possessions. Then it was Henderson's turn. Nelson ran it a couple of times. Paulus, for the most part, didn't -- I can only assume that a) he has the most experience doing so and b) he's probably not the most effective guy with the ball in his hands, so K was testing other options. And make no mistake -- K was clearly directing who would run this set each trip down the floor.

So, this was a great opportunity for K to learn about his team. And it was great for us, as fans, too. I liked what I saw out of the Scheyer/Singler pick-and-roll the most, because Scheyer saw the rest of the floor better than Nelson or Henderson. Gerald and DeMarcus were both a bit more effective getting into the paint, and Scheyer was a more effective outlet to spread the floor. But right now, game on the line, I think I want Scheyer running that screen with Singler with Nelson, Henderson and Paulus spreading the floor, ready to shoot, drive or crash the offensive boards.

Concur. With Scheyer, he's gritty enough to turn the corner a little more effectively than Greg, and you cannot foul either he or Singler. Most importantly, and most dramatically different from last year, you CANNOT cheat off of the man setting the pick. Josh wouldn't shoot, so our screen and rolls were never very effective. This year, with Singler and King both perfectly capable of setting the pick and then either popping or diving, our pick is a whole bunch more effective. Both players can drain it, both can knock down free throws if you foul them, and both of them can get to the basket.

[devilsadvocate85]

I think if you watch the tape you will see that Duke tried to run the "pick and roll" by giving the ball to either Henderson, Scheyer or Paulus depending on which of the three was being guarded by what Coach K thought was Wisconsin's weakest perimeter defender (#45 maybe?). It looked to me like a case of trying to exploit matchups.

[construe]

I found these paragraphs from the Suns’ victory over the Pacers last night interesting. From the AP recap:

“Phoenix's quick shots gave the Pacers the chance to overcome a 12-point deficit in the second half. The up-tempo style the Suns have helped popularize in recent years worked against them in the second half. The Pacers entered the game ranked in the top 10 in the league in scoring, so they were equipped to make the comeback. ‘You go up 15, and the way you got up there is also the way they're going to get it back,’ Phoenix coach Mike D'Antoni said. ‘So you just have to kind of put your seat belt on and ride through it.’ “

D’Antoni appears to have the mentality that many on the boards here would like to adopt regarding end-of-game management: keep running & gunning, and hope you can "ride it out". As much as K seems to have picked some things up from D’Antoni, perhaps D’Antoni could learn a thing or two from K?

(Of course, it is interesting to note that Phoenix won this game playing “their way”, while Duke has so far won this season playing its way. So who knows which approach is better…)

[uncwdevil]

I found these paragraphs from the Suns’ victory over the Pacers last night interesting. From the AP recap:

“Phoenix's quick shots gave the Pacers the chance to overcome a 12-point deficit in the second half. The up-tempo style the Suns have helped popularize in recent years worked against them in the second half. The Pacers entered the game ranked in the top 10 in the league in scoring, so they were equipped to make the comeback. ‘You go up 15, and the way you got up there is also the way they're going to get it back,’ Phoenix coach Mike D'Antoni said. ‘So you just have to kind of put your seat belt on and ride through it.’ “

D’Antoni appears to have the mentality that many on the boards here would like to adopt regarding end-of-game management: keep running & gunning, and hope you can "ride it out". As much as K seems to have picked some things up from D’Antoni, perhaps D’Antoni could learn a thing or two from K?

(Of course, it is interesting to note that Phoenix won this game playing “their way”, while Duke has so far won this season playing its way. So who knows which approach is better…)

D'Antoni's way is probably more aesthetically pleasing, but I think the chances of blowing the game have to be a little higher. K's way is more painful to watch, but its probably the best thing for winning games.

I stand by K on this since he knows slightly more about basketball than I do, but I have to admit it is excruciating to watch sometimes. Hopefully, with more options for the two man game late in the shot clock, some of the pain will be eased this season.

[greybeard]

Er, I think we are missusing a term here, fellas. The "pick and roll" is first and foremost a two man game in which either the dribbler or the screener get to try to score the ball. Only if neither can get what they want do other options present.

What we have here is something different--the use of a very high screen to permit the dribbler an easier path to penetration, getting an edge on the defender without having to particularly work at it, and with the other side's big, or one of them, being occupied far away from the basket to guard a guy who can kill you from outside if you don't.

If you stay with the screener, he and you are essentially out of the play, which is exactly what K expects. You then have penetration by a guy who should be on balance, who is one of your best shooter/attacker/distributers in a 4 on 3 plus situation (he has beaten his man and as a famous coach once put it, if you beat a guy and know how to tighten the angle between him and you, he stays beaten) with a key inside defender nowhere to be found. A good scoring opporunity has to follow if the other three guys know how to read the ball handler and make decent decisions the ball handler can see coming.

Calling it the "pick and roll" is misleading and technically an incorrect use of the term. In my opinion, of course.

[CDu]

Er, I think we are missusing a term here, fellas. The "pick and roll" is first and foremost a two man game in which either the dribbler or the screener get to try to score the ball. Only if neither can get what they want do other options present.

What we have here is something different--the use of a very high screen to permit the dribbler an easier path to penetration, getting an edge on the defender without having to particularly work at it, and with the other side's big, or one of them, being occupied far away from the basket to guard a guy who can kill you from outside if you don't.

If you stay with the screener, he and you are essentially out of the play, which is exactly what K expects. You then have penetration by a guy who should be on balance, who is one of your best shooter/attacker/distributers in a 4 on 3 plus situation (he has beaten his man and as a famous coach once put it, if you beat a guy and know how to tighten the angle between him and you, he stays beaten) with a key inside defender nowhere to be found. A good scoring opporunity has to follow if the other three guys know how to read the ball handler and make decent decisions the ball handler can see coming.

Calling it the "pick and roll" is misleading and technically an incorrect use of the term. In my opinion, of course.

It's frequently called the pick and pop. It's a slight derivation of the pick and roll. Instead of rolling to the basket after setting the pick (which is the "roll" part), the screener just steps back, or "pops" out. Frequently, both defenders follow the ball, leaving the screener open for a jump shot.

It's a derivation born out of the gradual development of the outside shot for big men. In the old days, big guys didn't frequently shoot from the perimeter. Now, it's more and more common.

[yancem]

D'Antoni's way is probably more aesthetically pleasing, but I think the chances of blowing the game have to be a little higher. K's way is more painful to watch, but its probably the best thing for winning games.

I stand by K on this since he knows slightly more about basketball than I do, but I have to admit it is excruciating to watch sometimes. Hopefully, with more options for the two man game late in the shot clock, some of the pain will be eased this season.

I agree that the stall offense can be an effective way to seal a victory but what has always puzzled me was why stand near half court until the 10 second mark and then start the offense? I would prefer if they wold work the ball around more in the manner of the normal offense and simply be more picky with their shots. If a layup or a open short shop presents itself take it regardless of the clock, if it doesn't keep working the ball around.

One of the problems with holding the ball outside of shooting range is that it allows the defense to rest and only forces them to concentrate for a few seconds instead of the entire shot clock. If you pass the ball around or at least threaten to penetrate the defense has to continue working and will be more tired when they get the ball back.

[ice-9]

True, but if you pass it around you also risk getting the ball stolen or turning it over.

[greybeard]

It's frequently called the pick and pop. It's a slight derivation of the pick and roll. Instead of rolling to the basket after setting the pick (which is the "roll" part), the screener just steps back, or "pops" out. Frequently, both defenders follow the ball, leaving the screener open for a jump shot.

It's a derivation born out of the gradual development of the outside shot for big men. In the old days, big guys didn't frequently shoot from the perimeter. Now, it's more and more common.

The screen is set way too high (far away from the basket) for that, and if getting the screener the three is their purpose, they are woefully bad at it. Key to the high screen's being effective, however, is the need for the screener's defender to stay with his man, usually Singlar. If he doesn't, Singlar catches it moving into the three or gets the three after one dribble. So the big cannot help on the screen and is taken out of the defense. Nope, not the pick and pop either.

By the way, at the end of the Laker's game, the Laker's used a variation of this play (of Sun's origin) to free Kobey. Deep left side, only the screener came to the defender's right (Kobe's left). Kobe went easily off the screen for a two from about 18 feet.

In Duke's style now, I see a key element of their game as inside out initiation, with the initiator (pivot) often being the penetrator off a high screen. K had said before the season that they would get center play this year in ways that they had in the past; perhaps this is part of it. The other blast from the past is that Singlar low reminds me very much of the 6' 4" center K had early on who used to kill people in a similar fashion to the way Singlar has on occasion.

Very exciting, innovative year for the K man. Not bad for the talent under him either, not to mention the fans.

[CMS2478]

True, but if you pass it around you also risk getting the ball stolen or turning it over.

Nothing against Paulus, but he is not always capable of going by people or dribbling away from pressure. The defense is not going to always stand there and let you practice dribbling for 10 minutes. So by running stallball we run the same risk. I like the idea of being patient on offense and getting good shots. If you have built a double-digit lead, you must have been doing something right in the first place....why change??? I am not a fan of stallball, but it has rarely cost us a game and I just pray it doesn't. Coach K is one of the best coaches ever and I am a lowly middle-school basketbally coach, so I trust him. But I don't teach my kids stallball the few times we tried it was a disaster!!!

[Jumbo]

The screen is set way too high (far away from the basket) for that, and if getting the screener the three is their purpose, they are woefully bad at it. Key to the high screen's being effective, however, is the need for the screener's defender to stay with his man, usually Singlar. If he doesn't, Singlar catches it moving into the three or gets the three after one dribble. So the big cannot help on the screen and is taken out of the defense. Nope, not the pick and pop either.

By the way, at the end of the Laker's game, the Laker's used a variation of this play (of Sun's origin) to free Kobey. Deep left side, only the screener came to the defender's right (Kobe's left). Kobe went easily off the screen for a two from about 18 feet.

In Duke's style now, I see a key element of their game as inside out initiation, with the initiator (pivot) often being the penetrator off a high screen. K had said before the season that they would get center play this year in ways that they had in the past; perhaps this is part of it. The other blast from the past is that Singlar low reminds me very much of the 6' 4" center K had early on who used to kill people in a similar fashion to the way Singlar has on occasion.

Very exciting, innovative year for the K man. Not bad for the talent under him either, not to mention the fans.

The term is just a question of semantics. "Ball screen," "high screen," "pick and roll" -- they're all the same. Bottom line is that such a screen always has two purposes -- to free a man or force a switch. Depending on who the screener is, the guy will dive or pop. Depending on the ball-handler, he'll turn the corner or pull-up. And, of course, the defense's strategy (trap the ball-handler, switch, go over the top, go under, hedge) will dictate how the offense reads the situation.

Duke uses this screen in conjunction with great spacing. The theory is that the court is so spread that someone has to be open if the defense helps. Still players have to make plays for that to happen.

[greybeard]

The term is just a question of semantics. "Ball screen," "high screen," "pick and roll" -- they're all the same. Bottom line is that such a screen always has two purposes -- to free a man or force a switch. Depending on who the screener is, the guy will dive or pop. Depending on the ball-handler, he'll turn the corner or pull-up. And, of course, the defense's strategy (trap the ball-handler, switch, go over the top, go under, hedge) will dictate how the offense reads the situation.

Duke uses this screen in conjunction with great spacing. The theory is that the court is so spread that someone has to be open if the defense helps. Still players have to make plays for that to happen.

The theory at play here is plain and simply to create space for the dribbler. No one is switching 40 feet from the basket, not with a big to a little, no one, especially if the screener is Singlar.

These terms are not fungible. The high screen developed by D'A is an innovation, or at least a tactic that he has brought to prominence. As I pointed out last year, JTIII has long used it too.

All those permutations you mentioned are completely and solely implicated when the two-man game is used. The two-man game dominated most pro offenses in the post early 1970's era of basketball, with a few exceptions, the Triangle, the King's Princeton, and then the Suns whatever. Its incessant use terribly dumbed the game down and made it boring. These other styles invigorate and entertain.

Saying the moon looks like swiss cheese is an acceptible statement. Saying that it is swiss cheese is an incorrect one.

[Jumbo]

The theory at play here is plain and simply to create space for the dribbler. No one is switching 40 feet from the basket, not with a big to a little, no one, especially if the screener is Singlar.

The screen isn't happening 40 feet from the basket. Also, just a pet peeve, but please try to spell Duke's players' names correctly. It's Singler.

These terms are not fungible. The high screen developed by D'A is an innovation, or at least a tactic that he has brought to prominence. As I pointed out last year, JTIII has long used it too.

It's not an innovation, but his success with it has led to copycats across the league. As I've pointed out on numerous occasions, the Princeton Offense eschews screens on the ball -- I'm not sure why you keep bringing up JT III as an innovator in tihs regard. That said, I can't think of a team that doesn't utilize a high ball-screen with the shot clock running down. It's the class quick-hitter.

All those permutations you mentioned are completely and solely implicated when the two-man game is used. The two-man game dominated most pro offenses in the post early 1970's era of basketball, with a few exceptions, the Triangle, the King's Princeton, and then the Suns whatever. Its incessant use terribly dumbed the game down and made it boring. These other styles invigorate and entertain.

That is completely, 100%, not true. You can run a ball-screen anywhere on the court and not have it turn into a two-man game. Stuff can be happening elsewhere on the floor to draw help, free a shooter, whatever -- screens, cuts, spacing, you name it.