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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC

    Depth and Bench Use

    I had a fairly lengthy conversation with some friends on Duke basketball, and one of the topics we came to was depth. This may be an incredibly obvious observation to some of you, but we realized that in the last 10 years we've had 4 Duke classes of a single player. Maggette, Duhon, Ewing, and Deng were all the lone players in their classes. So its not like K wasn't playing some guys, but a lot of years we never had more than 7 or maybe 8 ACC caliber players.

    Anyway, this may have been incredibly obvious to most of you but it seemed like a revelation to us. K looks like he's adjusted as we've recruited classes of 5 (although only 2 remain), 4, and now 3 with the possibility of adding Patterson. Next year may be more like 98 with no one playing more than 30 or so minutes a game.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    There were reasons for those one-person classes. Deng was the only one coming in his year because of the Redick/Randolph/Williams/Thompson/Melchionni/Dockery class the year before. Demarcus came in by himself also, though if K knew Thompson would leave like he did, that probably wouldn't have been the case. That being said, you're right that K has balanced the classes more evenly as of late.

    Looking at the players we have, especially at the 1-3 with Paulus, Smith, Nelson, Pocius, Scheyer, Henderson, and maybe even King, I'd say just about all of these kids are good enough to get reasonable minutes. At the 4 you have Singler, McClure and Thomas which gives good enough depth at that position. At the 5 you have Zoubek and obviously the jury is still out on Patterson.

    So, with the exception of the Center/Post position, Duke is deeper than it's been in a while. The fact that Patterson would really complete this squad is why we've all been on the edge of our seats since the season ended. Anyhow, we have 10 kids (excluding Patterson) who should or could potentially see minutes. I would love to see K open it up and play all (or at least more) of these kids, to speed up the tempo. With both a healthy Paulus and Nolan Smith able to share ballhandling duties, I think this can be done and it needs to be, as Duke's half-court struggles signaled the need for more transition baskets.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    I'm sure this was just a slip of the keyboard, but DeMarcus didn't come in by himself. Dave McClure was also in his class. And wasn't that the year that Livingston didn't come? Early defections (both prior to and after matriculation) have contributed to this phenomenon as well.
    DukeDevilDeb

  4. #4
    There was some discussion of this on the thread "two year outlook for Men's BB"'

    Here were my thoughts, which relate specifically to K's recruiting strategy:

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    I am of the opinion (I'm sure I'm not the only one) that K is adjusting his philosophy a little b/c of early entries to the L. We were spoiled for a while as literally no one EVER left Duke early until the exodus of '99. I think K was assuming that he would get 3-4 years out of just about everyone, which would mean he would only have to "reload" every couple of years, and in between just recruit one or two kids:

    97 Brand, Burgess, Battier, Avery
    98 Maggette
    99 Jwill, boozer, dun
    00 Duhon
    01 Ewing
    02 JJ, Sheld, M thompson, Lee Melch, Dock
    03 Deng, and Humphries who didn't make it
    04 DMarc and Mcclure, and Livingston who didn't make it

    Then when Humphries and livingston didn't make it and deng left after one year k realized this could easily turn into a pattern, and therefore a problem. So he changes his philosophy up and is just going to reload every year, or at least more often:

    05 Greg, Josh, Marty, Jamal, Boateng
    06 Scheyer, Gerald, Zoubek, Lance
    07 Singler, King, Smith, hopefully PP

    Anyway, I believe that this is the reason we haven't won since '01, and people are all over Coach K. You've got to imagine that if we had Deng playing with JJ and sheld for 2 more seasons we would have had a good shot.

    The game has changed and Coach K is adjusting and we have to hope his new philosophy will work. And since we're talking about one of the greatest coaches of all time, I see no reason why you would bet against him.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Duhon didn't come in by himself. Andre Sweet also was in that class. He didn't stick around long but that's another discussion.

    Kris Humphries was in the same class as Deng. Didn't show up but that's a different discussion.

    So Maggette and Ewing were the only intentional one-player classes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    And of those, Maggette makes complete sense, given that we had one of the best classes of all time the year before, combined with the fact that no one had ever left Duke early.

    Ewing makes relative sense, as K knew that he had a phenomenal class in the wings for the following year, and that he was keeping JWill and Boozer.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Believe it or not, Duke had three one-player classes in five seasons; Bill Foster brought in Mike Gminski in 1977 and Vince Taylor in 1979 and K brought in Doug McNeely for his first team, 1980-81.

    This did contribute to some serious depth and talent shortfalls early in K's tenure.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    Well, if we do sign Patterson, then I won't really care if we only sign one guy for next fall. As long as his name is Elliot Williams.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    Well, if we do sign Patterson, then I won't really care if we only sign one guy for next fall. As long as his name is Elliot Williams.
    If we only sign one player in the Class of 2008, I hope his name is Greg Monroe. Hopefully, we sign Greg Monroe, Elliot Williams, and Drew Gordon.

    Bob Green
    Yokosuka, Japan

  10. #10

    Depth

    We've got incredible depth at 2 and 3 (Nelson, Scheyer, Henderson. Pocius, Smith, and King), some at 4 (Singler, Thomas, and McClure), and not much at all at 1 (Paulus) or 5 (Zoubek). It's not as though we haven't tried to recruit players for the 4 and 5 positions, it's just that lately they haven't worked out (Sasha Kaun, Jon Brockman, Eric Boateng, Jamal Boykin, PP?).

    I know Smith probably will spell Greg at the point when necessary, but Nolan didn't play PG in high school, so it is unrealistic to expect him to be an ACC-caliber PG, especially during his first year. Let's hope Greg stays healthy and has a banner year.

    Unless Z-man makes a quantum leap between his frosh and sophmore years, which is possible but not likely, we will have to play small ball next season and will have serious rebounding and post defense issues. It's difficult to play aggressive perimeter defense without a big man down low to stop penetration. If we lack a post presence, we should have a good but not great year in 2007-08, similar to 2006-07. I know people like to dump on Josh, but he did play very good defense in the paint most of the time this year, and his skills there will be sorely missed. This means Greg Monroe is the key recruit for us this coming year.

  11. #11

    Duke depth and Blue White Lineups

    Duke Blue-White Game will be interesting.

    There are those who say Coach K will play his best 5 in ACC season and that would be

    Paulus (some say Smith but that is not gonna happen)
    Scheyer
    Nelson
    Henderson
    Singler

    Or some say

    Paulus (some say Smith but that is not gonna happen)
    Nelson
    Henderson
    Lance
    Singler

    Either way, in the Blue-White game, the counter would be something like

    Smith/ guarded man to man by Nelson/Henderson/Paulus
    Scheyer/King guarded man to man by Paulus/ Nelson/Henderson
    Pocius guarded man to man by Nelson/Henderson/Paulus
    McClure/King guarded man to man by Lance/Singler
    Zoubek/King guarded man to man by Lance/Singler

    And I do not see the game being a blow-out, assuming this team was allowed to play zone in the Blue-White game.

    In fact, just to be sporting, I will even throw in Patterson, and unless you were to choose the 5 that K would not

    Smith
    Singler
    King
    Patterson
    Zoubek

    There is a counter with any other combination of Duke players to prevent a blow-out.

    For example even with

    Paulus (some say Smith but that is not gonna happen)
    Henderson/Scheyer
    Nelson
    Singler
    Patterson

    That just makes the second team defense better with Lance or Scheyer/Henderson.

    Smith
    Scheyer/Henderson (whichever is not on the starting 5)
    Pocius/King
    King/Lance
    Zoubek/Lance

    If you want to talk about how badly UNC or UCLA or whoever would destroy any of these lineups or Duke in total, start your own thread.

    The point here is not only that Duke is deep but that there is not so large a difference in skill set to believe K will not use his bench this year, if performance in practice rather than urban myth is the criteria for PT.

    K could also mix/max some combination of this second team used to playing zone and some of the better athletes on the first team to occasionally mix things up with a zone, very occasionally.

    Or full court press with a lineup like

    Smith
    Henderson
    Nelson
    McClure
    Lance

    Or bombs away with a lineup like

    Paulus
    Scheyer
    (Pick one of Smith, Pocius, Nelson, Henderson or go with Zoubek in center)
    Singler
    King

  12. #12
    Why exactly did you "throw in Patterson" ...?

  13. #13
    Let's please not mention Patterson in any Duke lineups, thanks.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    I believe that we will see a whole lot of experimentation early on. I do not think we can predict who will be the five best or even two or three best at this stage. I can even imagine Coach K bringing in a new five guys (platoon system) on occasion. There will be just too much talent to play a traditional lineup. It should be very interesting.
    I expect to see more Henderson and McClure this fall. Hopefully, Thomas and Pocius will warrant more PT. Zoubek will get more, and all the new guys will be competing for PT, plus our tried and true players will be competitive. How can anybody not be excited????

  15. #15
    I have always been very, very excited when a new Duke year is coming.

    I have to admit, for the very first time there is a little trepidation; it isn't because I expect the team to be poor, but rather because I am now terrified by how hard a difficult season is on me! The end of last season was personally tough, with the Maryland loss, UNC loss, first round ACC loss, and first round NCAA loss being a lot of basketball letdown to swallow all at once. This last season was a rough one, so I am cautious going into this next year and will be happily proven to be a worrywart when our guys blow up.


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    Well, the blue-white game is never played in a starters verus subs manner, but I understand the sentiment that we will have an array of good players. Maybe not so good for coach, since he has made it very clear in several books that he prfers it when 5 or 6 guys create "separation" between themselves and the rest of the team.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    Let's please not mention Patterson in any Duke lineups, thanks.
    I second that.

    Patterson doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Duke. As he clearly stated, he "just wasn't feeling the rest of the Duke team." Well, Patty, the feeling's mutual.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Goldsboro, NC

    Unfortuneatly....

    I don't see Coach K playing more than 7 or 8 no matter how good they are....I don't mean that as a criticism, I'm just basing that on what he always does.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by CMS2478 View Post
    I don't see Coach K playing more than 7 or 8 no matter how good they are....I don't mean that as a criticism, I'm just basing that on what he always does.
    You've been saying this for, well, certainly as long as the board has been up. Can you explain what happened in 2002-03 or 1997-98, or 1996-97, for instance, then? Since, you know, he "always" plays no more than seven or eight guys.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Inman, SC & Fort Myers, FL
    I am betting that Coach K plays a lot more than a 7 or 8 man rotation, at least for the first half of the season.

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