NBA Boozer vs. Duke Boozer

[stumps]

Long time lurker, few time poster - apologies if I've missed this thread in the past year or so.

I'm curious about what people think is the difference between Boozer at Duke vs. Boozer today in the NBA. At last check, he's averaging 25 pts. and 12 boards per game. He's a beast.

Was he good at Duke. Absolutely. Maybe even great. But he wasn't as good as he is now. I've heard a number of arguments from other folks, primarily the following:

1. He played with Battier, Duhon, Williams, Dunleavy. And therefore, didn't have the "opportunity" to be a star.
2. He had to "conform" to the Duke system.

Are both of these true? Sure, at least to an extent. But I don't think they explain everything. I know, you know, and Coach knows, that if you've got a guy on the block that's a beast, you get him the ball, no matter who else is on the team. Think Elton halfway through his freshman year, when K redesigned the offense to take advantage of Elton's dominance.

The Duke "system"...? (Let's not get into an argument about what this is or isn't). But Boozer doesn't do anything today that wouldn't fit into Duke's game. He's not popping out for 15ft. jumpers, he's not leading the break. He gets the ball in the post, makes strong moves, and crashes the boards.

In fairness, as big a Duke fan as I am, I don't follow the NBA that closely. I can't stomach it. But every freaking time I see the ticker, it's showing Boozer with 35 points and 15 boards. Amazing. My conclusion is that he's simply improved a ton once he got to the NBA. He was young when he arrived at Duke, and over the past couple of years, he's matured, improved, and developed a dominating approach to the game. But I'm curious as to what others think, especially anyone from Utah/Cleveland or those who follow the NBA more closely. (And no, in NO way am I criticizing Boozer's play at Duke, or the ability for our coaches to develop big men). I really want to know what he does or has done differently over the past few years.

[rthomas]

The old joke when MJ was playing for the Bulls was: How do you hold MJ to below 35 points a game? The answer: Get Dean Smith to coach him.

[_Gary]

He's not popping out for 15ft. jumpers, he's not leading the break. He gets the ball in the post, makes strong moves, and crashes the boards.

Actually, Boozer is popping out (or staying out after picks) and hitting 15 footers. He's also hitting turnarounds from 15 feet. It's not just that he's getting garbage points from hitting the boards or being fed on the break. He's actually getting his points in many different forms and fashions. The pick and roll that he and Williams run is a thing of beauty (thanks in great part to Sloan). Boozer is just in a great system, but he's also got the skills to excel. He's doing it all and it's really fun to see he and the rest of the Jazz play ball.

He actually came to Duke with the rep that he could hit the outside shot, it just so happened that it wasn't necessary for him to do that. We needed his inside muscle and so he played inside for the most part. We also didn't run the pick and roll to the same degree they do at Utah. We did run it some, and he and Jason were great at it. But Utah runs in even more, and he does excel. I for one and really happy to see Boozer succeeding in Utah. Hope they win it all in the next couple of years.

Gary

[-jk]

He averaged 18 points and 9 rebounds in 28 minutes per game his last season at Duke, shooting 66% from the floor and 75% from the line.

That's not too shabby.

-jk

[CDu]

I think explanation #1 (played with a bunch of other stars) is the reason he didn't have a more dominant statline at Duke. I mean, when you look at what he did his junior year: 18 pts, 9 reb, 66% fg pct, 75% ft pct, it's easy to see he was a really effective player here. When you consider that he also had to share shots with Jason Williams and Dunleavy, it's pretty clear why he didn't put up better numbers.

That's not to say that Duke held him back. We just had so many weapons that he didn't have to carry the load. I personally think he's one of the more underrated players in that era of Duke basketball. The guy was just a beast, but always played second/third fiddle to Battier (for two years) and Williams. Now that he's the top option in Utah, he's showing what he can do.

[Indoor66]

Actually, Boozer is popping out (or staying out after picks) and hitting 15 footers. He's also hitting turnarounds from 15 feet. It's not just that he's getting garbage points from hitting the boards or being fed on the break. He's actually getting his points in many different forms and fashions. The pick and roll that he and Williams run is a thing of beauty (thanks in great part to Sloan). Boozer is just in a great system, but he's also got the skills to excel. He's doing it all and it's really fun to see he and the rest of the Jazz play ball.

He actually came to Duke with the rep that he could hit the outside shot, it just so happened that it wasn't necessary for him to do that. We needed his inside muscle and so he played inside for the most part. We also didn't run the pick and roll to the same degree they do at Utah. We did run it some, and he and Jason were great at it. But Utah runs in even more, and he does excel. I for one and really happy to see Boozer succeeding in Utah. Hope they win it all in the next couple of years.

Gary

At Duke his role was as the center/rebounder/defender; in the NBA he plays power forward and scorer/rebounder. he has a different role now.

[SilkyJ]

But Boozer doesn't do anything today that wouldn't fit into Duke's game. He's not popping out for 15ft. jumpers, he's not leading the break. He gets the ball in the post, makes strong moves, and crashes the boards.

I really want to know what he does or has done differently over the past few years.

See Gary's response below. Dead on. Boozer has developed a REALLY good 15-17 footer that he can hit as a turnaround fade away or a catch and shoot. You want to know what he's done differently, the development of his jumper is the biggest thing.

Jerry Sloan is obviously a great coach too and loves the pick and roll, and having Deron Williams there to run the pick and roll has helped him elevate his game. They'll pick and pop, pick and roll or pick and half roll (where boozer heads to the rim then stops and catches it at 12-15 feet and hits a jumper) and of course teams have to defend deron williams all the away from 25 feet all the way to the rim (not a great 3 pt shooter, but a solid one). so that helps...

Actually, Boozer is popping out (or staying out after picks) and hitting 15 footers. He's also hitting turnarounds from 15 feet. It's not just that he's getting garbage points from hitting the boards or being fed on the break. He's actually getting his points in many different forms and fashions. The pick and roll that he and Williams run is a thing of beauty (thanks in great part to Sloan). Boozer is just in a great system, but he's also got the skills to excel. He's doing it all and it's really fun to see he and the rest of the Jazz play ball.

He actually came to Duke with the rep that he could hit the outside shot, it just so happened that it wasn't necessary for him to do that. We needed his inside muscle and so he played inside for the most part. We also didn't run the pick and roll to the same degree they do at Utah. We did run it some, and he and Jason were great at it. But Utah runs in even more, and he does excel. I for one and really happy to see Boozer succeeding in Utah. Hope they win it all in the next couple of years.

Gary

[Dukiedevil]

He averaged 18 points and 9 rebounds in 28 minutes per game his last season at Duke, shooting 66% from the floor and 75% from the line.

That's not too shabby.

-jk

Note the 28 minutes per game. Scale up his production to the minutes per game he had in Utah last year (35 minutes/game) and you get... 22.5 and 11.2... Not a ton of difference than what he's doing now. That said, he has improved and is in a fantastic system for power forwards down in Utah.

[johnb]

In 2006-7, the Boozeman averaged 21 and 12.

His senior year at Duke, he averaged 22 and 11 (if you multiple his actual stats by 1.2, which would correspond to the 48 minutes in an NBA game).

He's at almost the top NBA echelon, just as he was almost at the top echelon at Duke. Make no mistake, though: he was a star at Duke, and if he were timettraveled so that he were returning for his senior year (with his sr yr skillset), we'd be drooling.

[mepanchin]

In two of three years Boozer was actually the 2nd most involved offensive player in terms of number of possessions used. He also shot over 60% from the field in all 3 years, rarely turned it over, and was a force on the boards. There's a good argument to be made that Boozer at Duke was actually a more dominant offensive player than Brand was.

[Matches]

He's gotten better since he was in college, as one would hope he would. Often we fall into the trap of assuming college players, particularly upperclassmen, have become what they're going to be. The reality is that most of them continue to improve well into their mid to late 20's.

[Scoring Point]

many good comments here

Would just add that I think Carlos the pro is in much better condition physically than he was as a Devil. The Jazz list him at 6-9 266. I am pretty sure he played his last 2 years at Duke in the 275-280 range. He not only looks slimmer now, but also more cut. I suspect he has a bit more lift and quickness as a result, in addition to expanding his game (or at least showcasing more of it) skill-wise.

[dyedwab]

I have always thought that Boozer in the NBA is a natural extension of Boozer at Duke, with more experience. Simply, he still does well what he did at Duke, and, as other have pointed out, added aspects to his game that he did use at Duke.

That being said, it seems to me that the development of Deron Williams and his being healthy at Utah has vaulted him from being really good to great.

[monkey]

He averaged 18 points and 9 rebounds in 28 minutes per game his last season at Duke, shooting 66% from the floor and 75% from the line.

That's not too shabby.

-jk

I just wish he had gotten just two more points on a certain putback that season though ... I think NBA Boozer stuffs that home.

[mepanchin]

^ Or gets the call since he was hacked

[Zeb]

To anyone on this thread who has said something along the lines of "Boozer's performance in the NBA is in line with what he did at Duke", I think a quick reality check is in order.

Today Boozer is one of the best players in the NBA. In 2002, no NBA GMs (and not many if any posters on this board) were looking at his 18 pts and 9 rebounds at Duke and thinking he would be having 30/20 nights in the NBA playoffs.

The interesting question is why were people so wrong on Boozer's NBA potential, especially when Brand put up similar numbers to Boozer as a sophomore on a very talented team in 99? Why was Brand recognized as a star and drafted #1, while Boozer slipped to the second round?

One factor is Carlos is not as long as Brand is, and NBA scouts notoriously over emphasize defined physical characteristics versus less quantitative assessments of a players strengths. But aside from that, how different was Carlos from Brand?

[-jk]

To anyone on this thread who has said something along the lines of "Boozer's performance in the NBA is in line with what he did at Duke", I think a quick reality check is in order.

Today Boozer is one of the best players in the NBA. In 2002, no NBA GMs (and not many if any posters on this board) were looking at his 18 pts and 9 rebounds at Duke and thinking he would be having 30/20 nights in the NBA playoffs.

The interesting question is why were people so wrong on Boozer's NBA potential, especially when Brand put up similar numbers to Boozer as a sophomore on a very talented team in 99? Why was Brand recognized as a star and drafted #1, while Boozer slipped to the second round?

One factor is Carlos is not as long as Brand is, and NBA scouts notoriously over emphasize defined physical characteristics versus less quantitative assessments of a players strengths. But aside from that, how different was Carlos from Brand?

Personally, I was floored he wasn't a lottery pick. But it worked out quite nicely for him in the end.

-jk

[MChambers]

But aside from that, how different was Carlos from Brand?

Pretty different. Brand was far superior defensively, being an amazing shot blocker for his height and having extremely quick feet. In fact, you really had to see Brand in 1999 to appreciate how fast he was. He was also simply more agile than Carlos.

Boozer actually might have been a better shooter, but I would say that was his only advantage over Brand. I don't say that to diminish Carlos, but only to explain how good Brand was. He was national player of the year, as a sophomore, for goodness sake.

It is worth remembering that Brand was not considered to be a top-five recruit by most of the pundits. Burgess was ranked higher, and Battier might have been ranked higher as well. I remember watching some high school all-star game on TV, however, and it was obvious that Brand was going to be an amazing player.

[jipops]

Was he good at Duke. Absolutely. Maybe even great. But he wasn't as good as he is now. I've heard a number of arguments from other folks, primarily the following:

1. He played with Battier, Duhon, Williams, Dunleavy. And therefore, didn't have the "opportunity" to be a star.
2. He had to "conform" to the Duke system.

The Duke "system"...? (Let's not get into an argument about what this is or isn't). But Boozer doesn't do anything today that wouldn't fit into Duke's game. He's not popping out for 15ft. jumpers, he's not leading the break. He gets the ball in the post, makes strong moves, and crashes the boards.

Not trying to get into the argument over "The Duke System" but what exactly is "The Duke System"? We run motion offense, it's not rocket science, tons of other teams do it. There's a lot of freelance and K constantly adjusts the style of this offense to fit his personnel.

OK back to the thread subject, look at the team makeup of Utah this year and last. They have a brilliant pg in Deron Williams who is both a major scoring threat and sharer of the ball. They have a center in Okur who loves to pop it from 3. This opens things up a great deal for Carlos' post game and pick 'n rolls. 'Los is also about 15-20lbs lighter than he was his last year at Duke which has made him much more mobile. He doesn't have to be the entire front court like he was at Duke in '02.

Oh yeah, and Carlos does in fact pop a lot of mid-range jumpers himself these days. Wouldn't have made much sense for him to do that his last year at Duke with no other physical bodies available to hit the boards.

[gotoguy]

Carlos also has unbelieveable hands and great touch around the basket with both right and left.