Anyone else miss the marquee non conference games?

[Billy Dat]

This may have been discussed before...but I am dissapointed at the scheduling priority shifting to high tier mid majors and away from traditional giants. I know that Coach tries to bring the team along focused squarely on March, but the past few seasons have demonstrated how hard it is to get to those high powered NCAA games (Elite 8 and beyond). As a result, we haven't been playing the likes of teams we used to have series with such as Florida, Kentucky, Arizona, UCLA, etc. It's fun to play those games, especially pre-conference when they are more for bragging rights then anything else. Based on press coverage, it seems like Coach avoids home and home series with these teams (e.g. Arizona). Why? Who cares if we lose...we'll win our share. We also seem to drop series when teams make a jump up to our competitive level - Florida and Georgetown are good examples. How insane would a home and home series with UConn be? or Kentucky? Arizona? When I look at our non conference schedule this year, Wisconsin is the only team that gets me going...although I am happy that Michigan is back on the schedule as it will give me a chance to pull out the cartoon dog shirt I bought on the quad before the huge rematch at Cameron in Fall of 1992 - the Fab Five's first trip to Cameron. Anyone else know the shirt I am talking about? (it was rated R/X, but the best Duke hoops shirt I have ever seen).

[Troublemaker]

I'm pretty sure I read that the Georgetown series resumes next season. I would like to see a marquee West Coast team added as a home-and-home series, but it's not like Duke tries to duck difficult games.

[Billy Dat]

If we don't duck true road games against top 25 non conference opponents, then why don't we play them? I haven't heard a decent explanation for this.

[Karl Beem]

If we don't duck true road games against top 25 non conference opponents, then why don't we play them? I haven't heard a decent explanation for this.

It takes two to tango?

[NovaScotian]

i dont think we duck hard games as much as we duck hard road games. a good number of games we play against better teams are on neutral courts (msg, meadowlands, etc.). games on those courts also help us get ready for tournament time too.

[Billy Dat]

From scanning the many fine articles posted on this blog, I have seen lots of examples of us ducking...Lute Olson wanted a home and home at the campus gyms but we wanted MSG...I know that Calhoun has talked about wanting a series (not that he's a reliable source). I would think that lots of teams would be willing to come to Cameron if we'd go to their gym...Duke coming to town would be a big event...maybe Mike Craig could shed some light on this.

[JBDuke]

From scanning the many fine articles posted on this blog, I have seen lots of examples of us ducking...Lute Olson wanted a home and home at the campus gyms but we wanted MSG...I know that Calhoun has talked about wanting a series (not that he's a reliable source). I would think that lots of teams would be willing to come to Cameron if we'd go to their gym...Duke coming to town would be a big event...maybe Mike Craig could shed some light on this.

If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

[77devil]

It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there.

Michigan is on the schedule this year in December.

The original premise of the thread is a red herring. There is plenty of quality non conference competition on the schedule including Pitt., Wisconsin, and the Maui Invitational teams among the others already mentioned.

Duke will play 30 regular season games if it wins the Maui tournament. Coach K has booked a full schedule particularly after the Christmas from Jan 6 to March 8 with no respite.

[Exiled_Devil]

JBDuke said everything I wanted to but more eloquently.

I don't think I have ever seen Mike Craigg around here - and I doubt he comes when called out.

Exiled

[dukie8]

If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

gtown got put on when they were bad -- really bad. it just so happens that they have a rebirth underway that basically started when they upset us 2 years ago. st johns and temple both have been terrible for far too long to still be on the schedule. it has been posted before, but both of those teams play dirty and one of these years one of our players is going to get hurt on a cheap shot play.

i agree with the original poster that we need to get a good home/home series going with a legitimate team in place of st johns or temple. kansas is kicked around a lot on here. having the team play in nyc every year is great for me -- so i can see them in person -- but, for the team's sake, i would like to see at least one really tough ooc road game. even if they lose, it will be a good learning experience. those arizona, ucla and fab 5 games were great.

[feldspar]

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

Wow. That's pretty irrational, if it's true.

[DevilAlumna]

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

<pipe dream>I bet Mark Few (or Lorenzo Romar) would be willing to schedule the Key Arena for Duke to come to Seattle!</pipe dream>

[JBDuke]

gtown got put on when they were bad -- really bad. it just so happens that they have a rebirth underway that basically started when they upset us 2 years ago. st johns and temple both have been terrible for far too long to still be on the schedule. it has been posted before, but both of those teams play dirty and one of these years one of our players is going to get hurt on a cheap shot play.

i agree with the original poster that we need to get a good home/home series going with a legitimate team in place of st johns or temple. kansas is kicked around a lot on here. having the team play in nyc every year is great for me -- so i can see them in person -- but, for the team's sake, i would like to see at least one really tough ooc road game. even if they lose, it will be a good learning experience. those arizona, ucla and fab 5 games were great.

Georgetown was added to the schedule in 2003, and they gave us all we wanted, as Duke was down at the half in Cameron, and rallied to a 7 point win. We won handily in 2004 (19 points), skipped them in 2005, and then lost in 2006, and got our revenge last year. That 2004 win was the only blowout.

Temple was added back to the schedule in 2005. That year and the next were both Duke wins, but both by less than ten points. Only last year's win was a blowout.

St. Johns was close last year, but the three years before that were all 10 point plus victories. Maybe they'll get better in the future, but with Duke scheduling a game every year up in New York anyway, this is the series I'd most like to see us drop.

As I said earlier, Michigan is back on the schedule next year, and that's generally been a good rivalry. I like Fran Dunphy, I think he's rebuilding at Temple, and thus I'd like to see us keep them on our schedule. Personally, I'd like to see us drop St. John's and add UCLA. Ben Howland has built a great program out there, and it would get Duke some West Coast exposure, which would be nice.

[Bob Green]

Michigan is back on the schedule this year. The Wolverines visit CIS on December 8th.

Adding UCLA to the schedule would be really exciting but as someone pointed out earlier it takes two to tango. I would also like to see us play a series with Michigan State. Tom Izzo is an excellent coach who consistently fields a solid squad.

[devildeac]

If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

I believe this story is in one of K's books. Duke was getting seriously homered and I think Ferry said such to Lute and Lute yelled back at him and then K yelled at Lute to stop talking to/yelling at my players. I believe there was also a made 3 pointer by Koubeck which was recorded and then on the next or some later possession, was changed to a 2 pointer. Arizona tied in regulation and the beat us in OT(1 or 2, I can't recall).

[trinity92]

Duke always has a strong schedule-- it's a K trademark. But MSG is hardly a neutral site; it's more like a home game. Since we get booed routinely in NCAA regionals unless we're in Greensboro, might be good to be against a top team in a truly hostile environment.

Seems like Carolina schedules big classic matchups every year, home and home. This year, Carolina has Ohio State, Kentucky and Penn back to back to back, ALL away games at campus gyms. For WIW, UNC follows that 2 weeks later with 4 mid-majors in a row (these guys have to play @ Dean Dome) that routinely make the tourney: UC-Santa Barbara (at the bottom, for sure), Nevada, Valpo and Kent State.

For the good of the game, the marquee programs should go against each other at home gyms. I'd like to see us up once a year against Kansas, Indiana, UCLA or KY. Those teams in Cameron, and us in Rupp, Allen, Assembly & Pauley are just good for the game.

[Troublemaker]

JB is dead on about Duke and scheduling opponents in major metro areas. We're very what-can-you-do-for-me minded in our scheduling. I'm not saying that's the right way to approach it, but that's how we do it. I think Duke would really, really like to add UCLA to the schedule but that's up to them, not us.

I'm comfortable having Georgetown as our marquee non-conf opponent. Their recruiting has really picked up recently and I can see them being a consistent top 10-15 team going forward.

[hondoheel]

But playing on a neutral court is of course only good practice when it's the other team's turn to host.

[Patrick Yates]

I don't think the other marque programs want any part of CIS. They may talk a big game, but when it gets right down to it they won't agree to home and home.

It is hard to even find a true neutral arena, should you want to do that. Is some arena in Kansas going to be significantly different that Phog Allen if Duke is in town? Same with KY, UCONN, UCLA, etc. Duke doen't really have a "neutral site." Greensboro is close, but there is still going to be a LARGE number of fans in NC that will go just to boo Duke. No other major program is located in a general area where they are hated as much as Duke.

If you are a major team, Cameron is a nightmare. I think the 95 UNC game showed that. A bad Duke team took a great UNC team to two overtimes. In 99 Duke destroyed a decent Florida team. If you are a major team, playing Duke in Cameron, it goes beyond merely getting "beat." Since these games are made a year or two in advance, there is an off chance that you will catch an "up" Duke squad, at home, for a game that will almost certainly be a tenting game. A game that will be a primetime gem on ESPN. Noisy, unruly Crazies and a big game are dangerous. Losing to Duke at Cameron happens, even to great teams. But a good team can get destroyed at Cameron, and coaches fear that.

On the flip side, Duke is so hated that playing Duke at the oposition's home is not as much of a home advantage as it is versus other places. Every team Duke travels to hates us, and reacts accordingly. Our kids are used to it. No other program is used to playing in an environment like CIS. In the ACC, upperclassmen can prepare underclassmen, and clam them down. No out of conf team has ever dealt with Cameron. I have seen senior, multi-year starters get the Deer in the Headlights look at Cameron when an out of conference team came to town.

Also, given the questionable histories of opposing coaches and players, do you really think they want any part of Cameron? You really think Calhoun wants the Crazies rehashing his recruiting rumors or laptopgate, or Kahlid's weed issues? No. Will Calipari come here? No.

Outsiders have nothing to gain. UNC, NCSU, and Duke have the state of NC locked down as far as recruiting, so you won't come here to impress local recruits. This is the ACC, they are not impressed with the SEC, Pac-10 or whoever. If the ACC doesn't want them, then odds are they are outsiders playing at a local prep school, or there is a big-butt red flag somehwere. An occaisional Gem slips out, but that is usually because the triad powers have a far superior talent already in place.

There is no real inducement for a major team to come to Duke. And we wisely won't do a series other than home and home, so we have stalemate.

I don't like it either, but as an out of conference coach I wouldn't bring my lambs to Duke's (potentially epic) slaughter (but almost certainly defeat of some sort). I'd talk a big game, but I wouldn't bring my ball to play when it came time to put up or shut up. I'd shut up, then start rumors that I was willing, even when I wasn't.

Patrick Yates

[gvtucker]

Dukie and UCLA played every year for many years, until the late 90's, alternating home courts. UCLA ended the series after losing one too many California recruits to Duke; my recollection is that losing Ricky Price to Duke as the last straw for them.