Duke MBB v. Barton College - In-Game and Post-Game Thread

[Edouble]

What is this triple-double you speak of from Haywood? Was it points/rebounds and donuts?

18 points, 14 boards, 10 blocks vs. Miami 12/04/2000. The only triple-double in Tarheel history.

[Channing]

Aside from his personality issues, having a Haywood or a Zwikker doesn't help a team play at the breakneck pace that this year's team wants to operate at, nor does it help a team win tournament games.

One thing Haywood does have going for him is the claim to being an integral part of what can only be described as a tear in the time/space continuum . . . you know when not only did Battier make a low bb IQ play by fouling at half court with 2 seconds left in a tie game . . . but Haywood followed by making both free throws.

The only explanation was something wacky going on in the 4th or 5th dimension

[Jumbo]

I didn't think it was a "nasty" comment He said scheyer is not really a shooter, but a scorer and that he can be a little streaky with his jumper.

I don't need you to translate Grossbus' comment for me. I'm able to read for myself. Additionally, I responded to him as a poster, not a moderator. His post was not moderated. If you have problems with "moderation" in the future, please use the PM route. If you have problems with a post of my in general, don't tell me how I'm supposed to post "as a moderator."

[SMO]

I don't need you to translate Grossbus' comment for me. I'm able to read for myself. Additionally, I responded to him as a poster, not a moderator. His post was not moderated. If you have problems with "moderation" in the future, please use the PM route. If you have problems with a post of my in general, don't tell me how I'm supposed to post "as a moderator."

geez, someone needs to get in here and moderate this discussion

[throatybeard]

This has resulted in two blowouts but before we start to anoint some as the "best" or, in some cases, "worthless", we should wait a few games against decent competition.

It is probably my age, but I don't believe we should slam 19-22 year olds who wear the Duke uniform. Yes, we can point out bad games or areas of needed improvement. We can argue about playing time but it seems to me that the neverending criticism of certain players is not necessary. In the past, I felt that the players or their families could visit this site and not be offended. I don't think that is case for certain players on this year's team.

Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

[Clipsfan]

Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I don't know...people really piled on Duhon. I think that it is the nature of many Duke fans to both set unrealistic expectations (he got 6 assists/game his freshman year, he should get 9 the next year) and come down hard on players who don't meet these ridiculous expectations.

[elvis14]

Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I think there are 2 things at play here. First is that last season was really disappointing and I think some of the ire heaped on Paulus is a result of hard feelings about our team in general last season. Secondly, for some of us, Paulus' play last year was really hard to watch. Specifically, he did 3 things last season that bothered me:

1. Trying to run the offense with his back to the basket any he's picked up past 1/2 court.
2. Killing ball movement. Last season, as we struggled to score points our ball movement died when Paulus got the ball. He always wanted to make THE pass. That's great sometimes but way too often what it did was stagnate ball movement in the 1/2 court and allow defenses to reset and catch up.
3. His first two seasons he has been unable to stop anyone from going past him.

I don't mean to turn this into yet another argument about Paulus, and there are things I like about the kids as well (toughness, shooting, attitude). I am just giving you an example of what it is that causes people (me in this case) to criticize GP. I hope he can fix all of those issues and have a great season leading our team to many great victories.

[gw67]

I recognize that this is a college basketball site and that there is a wide difference of opinion on many subjects. What I find unfair has been the relentless putdown of Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Scheyer since last March. I suspect from your comment that you realize that many threads have gotten off track in the last seven months and have been taken over by posters who continue to criticize Paulus and Scheyer. I’m sure that most will agree that both of these youngsters had some difficult moments last year but that there were extenuating circumstances (injury and inexperience). Many posters, IMO, have failed to be evenhanded in their analysis of these youngsters and the rest of the players on the team. For example, both Thomas and Henderson had uneven freshmen years but neither was subjected to the same negativity. I can only hope that this year’s team is very successful and that we don’t go looking for individuals to blame if the team doesn’t meet expectations.

gw67

[mehmattski]

I would like to clarify one thing from my earlier post- I was not intending to put down Greg Paulus, but rather really emphasize how impressed I was by the play of Nolan Smith on Saturday. Going back over the box score, a lot of the fast-break points came just as much with Greg on the floor as with Nolan. The difference is that the primary ball-handler was involved in the scoring aspect of the fast-break with Smith on the floor- and I feel that is a desirable attribute for this offense.

As for Marty, I knew what I had to say was contentious. While someone was right to point out that my classification of flailing shots as "many" was off, the play-by-play does show that he had two missed layups. If, as others have suggested, he becomes a reliable transition three-point option, then I will change my mind on him. The transition three-pointer is a deadly weapon in the up-tempo offense, and if Marty is better at it than our other shooters, he deserves to get more playing time. If, however, Scheyer and/or King are able to reliably hit threes on the run, then their strengths in other areas mean they should get the nod over Marty.

[elvis14]

I recognize that this is a college basketball site and that there is a wide difference of opinion on many subjects. What I find unfair has been the relentless putdown of Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Scheyer since last March. I suspect from your comment that you realize that many threads have gotten off track in the last seven months and have been taken over by posters who continue to criticize Paulus and Scheyer.

snip

gw67

One thing to keep in mind for some of us, is that we want Paulus to do well and we really like him as a person. At the same time the holes in his game can get people fired up at times because as the starting point guard, he's important to our success and/or seen as contributing to our failures. If you equate a PG to a QB in football, notice how QB's tend to get too much credit for a win and too much blame for a loss?

As for Scheyer, most of what I've read about him has been positive except that people feel that Henderson should start in his place (and get more PT). Some see this as a criticism or negativity towards Jon as opposed to a very positive statement about GH. This generally leads to some guys (Jumbo, for example ) going nuts and defending Jon. The ensuing disagreement ends up more negative towards Jon than intended. I believe that most of us recognize Jon's overall game and value (both of which are great). Of course all of this is conjecture and opinion on my part and I could be full of crap!

[Kilby]

Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I feel that it is a natural reaction to the less than objective views that some people hold about Paulus ( and maybe the Duke hype machine). Up unil the two exhibitions there duke fans that were asserting that Paulus was one of the top three guards in the ACC, a sure starter and Dukes most important cog for the season. A little more objectivity lets people root for him for what he is. For me another good example is Scheyer. I love Sheyer's game, but most people in the country agreed with me that Henderson is a special, special player. In predicting the starting fives people were unfairly picking apart Henderson's game and giving Scheyer a pass. It's okay to have a favorite player but overhype leads to backlash.

[Jumbo]

I love Sheyer's game, but most people in the country agreed with me that Henderson is a special, special player.

You've been talking to most people in the country? That's impressive.

In predicting the starting fives people were unfairly picking apart Henderson's game and giving Scheyer a pass. It's okay to have a favorite player but overhype leads to backlash.

I don't recall anything resembling what you've just said. Is it possible that -- gasp -- people might actually reasonably disagree about a couple of players' relative abilities?

[Kilby]

I'm sorry Jumbo. Next time I will try to better word my post. I love Duke basketball and DBR but sometimes I have a hard time with some of the posts. I think that I had several emotions running through me that I didn't adequately filter. First, I use to be a regular poster some time ago but resolved to stay off of the boards because of 1)the snide sarcastic replies that are in some posts and 2)what I felt was an unfair bias coming through against some Duke players while putting others on too high a pedestal. I know a number of people that have stopped reading the boards because of the second reason. You pile on a season of Dick Vitale saying how great a player is and I thought that it was natural to see some backlash. JJ wasn't hated just because he was good and played for Duke, but maybe I'm trying to make different points again.
I do think that I know a little about basketball and I talk a lot of other fans that do. Above all I hate Carolina from having to endure the obnoxious fans and press that existed during my years in Carolina. I appreciate the fact that posters here generally bring a higher level of discussion than on other fan boards. I also love it when some are able to relay the opinions of experts. I will think about what I want to say a little more before I post. I will respect the opinion of others whether they have their Duke colored glasses on or not, how wrong their experts are, or how biased they seem.

[Jumbo]

I'm sorry Jumbo ... I will respect the opinion of others whether they have their Duke colored glasses on or not, how wrong their experts are, or how biased they seem.

That has to be the most backhanded apology I've ever read. You know what the funny thing is? You've been big into the Henderson-Scheyer debate (as if it's really a debate -- they're both really good players). Then, in your previous post, you talked about unfair hype. Guess which of those players was more hyped coming into Duke? Yup, Gerald Henderson. Guess which one of those players had the more productive freshman season? Yup, Jon Scheyer. Yet, guess which one of those players has been far more hyped all summer, and now as we're heading into the season? It's still Gerald Henderson. Seems to me that if you were really the champion of the underdog, you'd be pointing out some of Scheyer's accomplishments. Instead, you're accusing others of playing favorites. I don't get it.

[Kilby]

Other than saying that Scheyer faded offensively in the last part of the season I don't think that I said anything negative about Scheyer's game at all. And that was only after some pooh poohed the opinion that Henderson should be starting and proceded to cite experts to pick apart Hendeson's game. In fact I've said that I love Scheyer's game.