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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I like these quotes from Trevon, he seems pretty media savvy in that he pivoted from a "Duke didn't feature me" angle to one that was more positive about the opportunity Duke afforded him.

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...gue/765767002/

    Even in summer league, with its 10-minute quarters, the Rockets play at a fast pace, scoring 92 points in the opening game. Duval took advantage of the up-tempo game, something relatively uncommon at Duke.

    "Breaking free of the cohesive Duke offense, Duval showed NBA-level ability.

    Without last season' teammates -- no Marvin Bagley lll or Wendell Carter to force a deliberate pace, no other ball-handlers such as Gary Trent Jr. and Grayson Allen -- Duval unleashed his real identity.

    ďI think it helped me a little bit,Ē Duval said. ďI always like playing fast in transition. So, this pace is for me.Ē

    With Duval playing in an offense he prefers, he was also able to showcase his improvement -- capitalizing on success he found in his lone season with the Blue Devils. He took pride in getting everyone involved, collecting 5.6 assists per game in college, and lists that as his top skill.

    ďI would say my playmaking ability since I played on a team with four other NBA players,Ē Duval said. ďSo, I think Iíve learned to create for really good players and also play with other really good players.Ē
    Good interview...but does anyone question the validity of the pace issue? We definitely looked to push the ball in transition (some of Duval's greatest mistakes were in that part of the game, actually) and didn't exactly play a slow pace. Bagley and Carter could both run the floor. Allen looked to push the ball up the court on the break regularly as well. We were easily inside the top 30% of teams in possessions per game, and there were (by my count, may have missed one or two) only 3 major conference teams averaging at least 2 possessions per game more than us. There are ~15 major conference teams that averaged more possessions per game in total, but several of those are so close that the difference makes no difference.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I like these quotes from Trevon, he seems pretty media savvy in that he pivoted from a "Duke didn't feature me" angle to one that was more positive about the opportunity Duke afforded him.

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...gue/765767002/

    Even in summer league, with its 10-minute quarters, the Rockets play at a fast pace, scoring 92 points in the opening game. Duval took advantage of the up-tempo game, something relatively uncommon at Duke.

    "Breaking free of the cohesive Duke offense, Duval showed NBA-level ability.

    Without last season' teammates -- no Marvin Bagley lll or Wendell Carter to force a deliberate pace, no other ball-handlers such as Gary Trent Jr. and Grayson Allen -- Duval unleashed his real identity.

    ďI think it helped me a little bit,Ē Duval said. ďI always like playing fast in transition. So, this pace is for me.Ē

    With Duval playing in an offense he prefers, he was also able to showcase his improvement -- capitalizing on success he found in his lone season with the Blue Devils. He took pride in getting everyone involved, collecting 5.6 assists per game in college, and lists that as his top skill.

    ďI would say my playmaking ability since I played on a team with four other NBA players,Ē Duval said. ďSo, I think Iíve learned to create for really good players and also play with other really good players.Ē
    I may have missed it, but donít recall a single OAD at Duke or anywhere saying his schoolís Defensive strategy didnít adequately prepare him for the NBA or show off his defensive abilities.

  3. #143
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Good interview...but does anyone question the validity of the pace issue? We definitely looked to push the ball in transition (some of Duval's greatest mistakes were in that part of the game, actually) and didn't exactly play a slow pace. Bagley and Carter could both run the floor. Allen looked to push the ball up the court on the break regularly as well. We were easily inside the top 30% of teams in possessions per game, and there were (by my count, may have missed one or two) only 3 major conference teams averaging at least 2 possessions per game more than us. There are ~15 major conference teams that averaged more possessions per game in total, but several of those are so close that the difference makes no difference.
    Have you ever heard the scientific concept of "sleep on it"? Not the term, I'm sure you've heard the term. But there's a concept out there (I've never researched it, but have been told about it by of my old high school teachers) that while you are unconscious, the brain is still active and thinking about the issues that were facing you during your conscious day. As such, when you wake up, sometimes you have newfound thoughts or solutions to concepts that were previously giving you difficulty. I have certainly experienced this in my life, whether or not the science is true or if the concept is simply a myth).

    I think this concept holds true for a college basketball season as well. Sometimes the offseason "reset" gives the body and mind a chance to recalibrate all of the learnings from a full season that were hard to integrate into your game with only short-term breaks filled with practice and game prep. At least, that's my theory. Maybe it's totally wrong, or (probably) only partially right.

    I think you see that with a lot of these guys after they leave the program. That, plus the spacing is better in the NBA which never hurts.

    So, no, I don't think the pace thing is really all that valid quantatively. But qualitatively, maybe Trevon needed to take a little break to further adjust his game to the quicker pace than he had seen in high school.

    And regardless, the pace thing is an easy narrative to cling to when asked stupid media questions.

    - Chillin

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I think we played a fast pace early on but the switch to the zone meant slowing it down. My eye test tells me we didnít run much, which really hurt Duval.

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    MKE
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I think we played a fast pace early on but the switch to the zone meant slowing it down. My eye test tells me we didnít run much, which really hurt Duval.
    We also (relatedly) forced few turnovers, which reduced opportunities for transition offense. I don't think we played a deliberately slow offense, nor did the presence of Bagley or Carter slow us down - just the opposite.

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    We also (relatedly) forced few turnovers, which reduced opportunities for transition offense. I don't think we played a deliberately slow offense, nor did the presence of Bagley or Carter slow us down - just the opposite.
    You are partially correct, but Bagley and Carter not being able to play Duke's man2man was part of the reason Duke went to Zone and the zone helped slow the pace of play. GoDuke!

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    MKE
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    You are partially correct, but Bagley and Carter not being able to play Duke's man2man was part of the reason Duke went to Zone and the zone helped slow the pace of play. GoDuke!
    Yes, that's true. I was referring to the notion implied in the article that Duval had to slow down his transition game so Bagley and Carter could plod their way down the court and take their positions in the low post. To the contrary, Carter and especially Bagley regularly made Duval (and everyone) look good in transition.

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    With all of our guys playing so well in Summer League, I'm still surprised we didn't slaughter ever team in our path.
    Thatís not a dig at Dukeís coaching is it? Even if it isnít I have heard so many instances on radio, internet and podcasts of Dukeís coaching getting slaughtered since the season ended that itís really shocking. Various sports media members are outright ripping how Dukeís defense was coached and the type of defense that was used, how the players were coached overall, and the type of offense that was run.

    I have NEVER seen Coach K and his staff talked so poorly about in four decades of following Duke basketball. It seems there has been a sea change in perception. These are not all Duke and Coach K haters, either. And even the long-time haters, while berating Duke overall, at least used to generally speak highly of Dukeís coaching. Not anymore. Something is going on, but I donít know what.
    Last edited by Steven43; 07-11-2018 at 05:38 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Thatís not a dig at Dukeís coaching is it? Even if it isnít I have heard so many instances on radio, internet and podcasts of Dukeís coaching getting slaughtered since the season ended that itís really shocking. Various sports media members are outright ripping how Dukeís defense was coached and the type of defense that was used, how the players were coached overall, and the type of offense that was run.

    I have NEVER seen Coach K and his staff talked so poorly about in four decades of following Duke basketball. It seems there has been a sea change in perception. These are not all Duke and Coach K haters, either. And even the long-time haters, while berating Duke overall, at least used to generally speak highly of Dukeís coaching. Not anymore. Something is going on, but I donít know what.
    the elevation of the "hot take" has supplanted actual critical thinking. Also everybody loves taking pot-shots at the supposed "king of the hill".

    As far as the reality of the team goes i think there were a few flaws, and maybe there was some lack of gelling as a unit, but i have no basis on that. Duke had serious issues with spacing with Bagley and Carter being on the floor together that 2 of the 3 perimeter guys couldn't do what they do best, so our offense ended up being less than the sum of its parts. And it was still a really, really good offense. We started 4 Fr. and they didn't play defense very well, up until we used zone, and in addition to the defensive woes, by playing both Bagley and Carter together so much, the team couldn't really defend teams that went small all that well. Still, even in the zone the defense improved markedly from its first use until the end of the year.
    The team needed more outside shooting and the fact that our starting PG was an atrocious 3pt shooter really hurt. Bagley and Carter shot about as many 3s as was appropriate, maybe Carter should have taken a few more, but his rebounding was so important that it makes sense to not have him outside all that much. The fact that we really only used 2 volume shooters from 3 meant that we were highly susceptible to either or both of them being cold.

    In the end, all of this complaining goes away if Grayson's layup didn't roll off the rim, or perhaps if Carter doesn't foul out after a couple of pretty questionable calls.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    The team needed more outside shooting and the fact that our starting PG was an atrocious 3pt shooter really hurt. Bagley and Carter shot about as many 3s as was appropriate, maybe Carter should have taken a few more, but his rebounding was so important that it makes sense to not have him outside all that much. The fact that we really only used 2 volume shooters from 3 meant that we were highly susceptible to either or both of them being cold.

    In the end, all of this complaining goes away if Grayson's layup didn't roll off the rim, or perhaps if Carter doesn't foul out after a couple of pretty questionable calls.
    Agree with all this. In hindsight, you might say we should have given more of Duval's minutes to O'Connell. But you have to put yourself in the moment Ė IMO it made sense at the time to take a little bit of a risk on Duval's talent. Also, as far as the "pace" argument, I'm not sure it would have really made sense to cancel our plans to center our offense and defense around Bagley and Carter (which generally performed great) and instead build it to maximize the use of a player who can't shoot.

    All this is a long way of saying that I don't think any of the summer league results invalidate our coaching this year.

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Maryland
    I have to say, watching some of these Carter highlights is making me see where his mom was coming from when she said she was disappointed (disgusted?) with how Bagley got most of Carter's shots. I just watched a clip where he got the ball at the free throw line, pump faked, drove and dropped in a floater. Who knew he could do that? Have I forgotten him doing that all year?

  12. #152
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    I have to say, watching some of these Carter highlights is making me see where his mom was coming from when she said she was disappointed (disgusted?) with how Bagley got most of Carter's shots. I just watched a clip where he got the ball at the free throw line, pump faked, drove and dropped in a floater. Who knew he could do that? Have I forgotten him doing that all year?
    You've forgotten. He had plenty of those types of plays for us. At 1:25 is almost exactly the same type of play you're describing.



    With that said, there's no question he has a right to feel like Bagley's reclassification took focus away from him. He would have been a much more featured player and gotten many more shots. But also consider that if you remove Bagley from the team then you likely have Javin starting at the 4, which means Carter is double teamed every time he touches the ball. Or you'd have Bolden at the 5 and Carter at the 4, which means the lane is clogged and Carter has a smaller player guarding him who can contest him at the three point line.

    A couple weeks ago some writer had a good breakdown of Carter's numbers during those games when Bagley sat out. Bottom line is that Carter had more total shots but made a lower percentage, for about the same amount of production.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    I have to say, watching some of these Carter highlights is making me see where his mom was coming from when she said she was disappointed (disgusted?) with how Bagley got most of Carter's shots. I just watched a clip where he got the ball at the free throw line, pump faked, drove and dropped in a floater. Who knew he could do that? Have I forgotten him doing that all year?
    at the college level, Bagley was really, really good at that too.
    I remember Carter getting the ball out at the elbow area a few times, he shot a few jumpers, and he drove the ball a few times. He never looked better at doing it than Bagley. Sample size and all that.

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Another video that shows one of Wendell's better games. Much of this was him matched up against Moore, a very large player who (somewhat foolishly) declared for the draft.



    Wendell did a little of everything, and I think having Bagley next to him is what allowed him to show such a full range of skills. The biggest knock on him prior to the draft was his ability to defend on the perimeter, that's why he was picked 7th instead of 3rd or 4th. Also note that he was limited by foul trouble in a lot of games, and he played through an Achilles injury late in the season. Anyone criticizing how Duke utilized him or suggesting that Duke held him back is just plain wrong IMO.

  15. #155
    The tournament started with the 17 seed Clippers beating the 16 seed Wizards 89-74.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/LACWAS#/boxscore

    Matt had 7 points and 6 rebounds in 24 minutes and Harry had 7 points and 6 assists in 21 minutes, but the 21 seed Kings lost to the 12 seed Cavaliers 96-84 and will now move to the consolation bracket.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/SACCLE#/boxscore

    Trevon had 9 points in 13 minutes for the 5 seed Rockets as they beat the Nets 109-102.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/BKNHOU#/boxscore

    Wendell had 19 points and 9 rebounds in 30 minutes as the 24 seed Bulls beat the 9 seed Mavericks.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/CHIDAL#/boxscore

    Amile had 6 points and 15 rebounds in 29 minutes, but the 8 seed Timberwolves lost to the 25 seed Pistons 64-59.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/DETMIN#/boxscore

    The 18 seed Hawks beat the 15 seed Pacers 107-101.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/ATLIND#/boxscore

    The 29 seed Raptors beat the 4 seed Nuggets 85-77.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/TORDEN#/boxscore

    The day ended with the 13 seed Hornets beating the 20 seed Warriors 87-69.
    http://www.nba.com/games/20180711/GSWCHA#/boxscore

    Here is Thursday's schedule (all times ET, games on NBATV also on ESPN3):
    (26) Heat vs (9) Pelicans, 4pm NBATV
    (23) Knicks vs (10) Celtics, 4:30pm ESPN2
    (27) Grizzlies vs (6) Thunder, 6pm NBATV
    (30) Sixers vs (3) Sun, 6:30pm ESPN2
    (19) Spurs vs (14) Bucks, 8:00pm NBATV
    (17) Clippers vs (1) Lakers, 8:30pm ESPN2
    (22) Jazz (Grayson?) vs (11) Magic, 10:00pm NBATV
    (18) Hawks vs (2) Trailblazers (Gary), 10:30pm ESPN2

  16. Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    It's hard to overstate how well Carter has been playing so far in summer league. Averaging 16, 7.3, and 3.7 blocks per game, shooting 57% from the field, 50% from 3, and 79% from the FT line. His stat line is somewhat masked by the fact that he's playing alongside an unabashed gunner in Antonio Blakeney (who is averaging nearly a FGA per minute) and some really bad guards, which keeps him from getting more and better looks. But he's looked great in every facet of the game. Even in perimeter defense, which was a nightmare for him last year.

    The SummerBulls took a tough L to the Hawks, as Trae Young was spectacular from 3. Young hit 7 of 13 from 3, and most were REALLY long because the Bulls were overplaying him anywhere near the line.
    Yeah, he looks real good. I'm thinking about taking him and/or Ayton next season for fantasy.

    I always thought Carter's game was better suited for the NBA than Bagley's, though perhaps as a key role player vs. featured player. Like a Horford rather than a Porzingis. Horford is a monster on D though.

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    Yeah, he looks real good. I'm thinking about taking him and/or Ayton next season for fantasy.

    I always thought Carter's game was better suited for the NBA than Bagley's, though perhaps as a key role player vs. featured player. Like a Horford rather than a Porzingis. Horford is a monster on D though.
    It seems as if there are an awful ot premature conclusions being drawn from a few loosely-structured summer games comprised of mostly second-tier players as well as many others who wonít ever make an NBA roster. I wish someone would do an analysis of how players in previous years have done in summer basketball as compared to how they did during the actual season. Might be revealing.
    Last edited by Steven43; 07-12-2018 at 01:50 AM.

  18. Now now, canít we be a little more sunshine from time to time?

    All that said, rebounds and blocks in college do predict rebounds and blocks reasonably well in the NBA. Iíd assume the same for summer league. We know Carter has a serviceable 3-pointer.

    The big questions will be his defense and fouling.

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Thatís not a dig at Dukeís coaching is it? Even if it isnít I have heard so many instances on radio, internet and podcasts of Dukeís coaching getting slaughtered since the season ended that itís really shocking. Various sports media members are outright ripping how Dukeís defense was coached and the type of defense that was used, how the players were coached overall, and the type of offense that was run.

    I have NEVER seen Coach K and his staff talked so poorly about in four decades of following Duke basketball. It seems there has been a sea change in perception. These are not all Duke and Coach K haters, either. And even the long-time haters, while berating Duke overall, at least used to generally speak highly of Dukeís coaching. Not anymore. Something is going on, but I donít know what.
    I think part of this is different priorities. Ie, if your only goal is develop Wendell Carter for the NBA, you would do a lot of things differently than if your only goal is develop Trevon Duvall, or if your goal is to actually win basketball games. So when people take a very narrow view it's easy to criticize, but when you have to evaluate the competing demands Coach K faced it's much harder to second guess the decisions he made.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    I think part of this is different priorities. Ie, if your only goal is develop Wendell Carter for the NBA, you would do a lot of things differently than if your only goal is develop Trevon Duvall, or if your goal is to actually win basketball games. So when people take a very narrow view it's easy to criticize, but when you have to evaluate the competing demands Coach K faced it's much harder to second guess the decisions he made.
    As I see it, it is quite simple. K is the coach of Duke first and individual players second. Players are recruited in the best interest of Duke and Duke's needs. That is what it is all about. It is not about showcasing individuals for the NBA draft. That aspect is a byproduct of fulfilling the primary purpose to win games for Duke.

    Keep your eye on the ball

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