shaq v wilt

[kAzE]

The difference in the Curry vs Westbrook and Wilt vs Russell comparison is that Curry was the more efficient player, whereas Chamberlain was more efficient than Russell. It is hard for me to accept a “he wins” argument in discussion of who the best player is when the guy winning has both lesser stats AND lesser efficiency. I don’t buy that “doing what it takes to win” means being less efficient.

If Russell was putting up a better FG%, better rebounding, better assists, better anything other than wins, I would buy it. But it sure seems more like Russell just had better teammates and coaches than Wilt.

Does that include the 3 years (2 of which were championship seasons) Bill Russell was his own head coach?

All kidding aside, yes, I realize Wilt was the more efficient player in terms of stats. Again, I'm not disputing that Wilt was by far the more talented basketball player. The question here is who would you rather have on your NBA team? I ranked them #6 and #7, so obviously both guys are all-time greats who would both be incredible guys to build a franchise around. It's not like I'm saying Bill was miles ahead of Wilt, they are very, very close.

But Russell did all of the little things, like keeping the ball in play when blocking shots, making perfect outlet passes, being a humble and brilliant leader, calling plays in huddles, organizing defensive schemes, knowing how to manage his teammates' egos and just being the smartest player on the court at all times. Let's just take a step back and think about how absurd it is that Russell won 2 rings as a player coach. That is a truly ridiculous accomplishment. Perhaps he did have better teammates than Wilt, but that can't be the only reason he won 11 championships. Bill Russell was the #1 reason Bill Russell won 11 championships.

We talk about players whose contributions don't show up on the stat sheet all the time (Al Horford!), so why disregard that completely when ranking them historically?

[Lar77]

The difference in the Curry vs Westbrook and Wilt vs Russell comparison is that Curry was the more efficient player, whereas Chamberlain was more efficient than Russell. It is hard for me to accept a “he wins” argument in discussion of who the best player is when the guy winning has both lesser stats AND lesser efficiency. I don’t buy that “doing what it takes to win” means being less efficient.

If Russell was putting up a better FG%, better rebounding, better assists, better anything other than wins, I would buy it. But it sure seems more like Russell just had better teammates and coaches than Wilt.

He was also a better teammate and more coachable than Wilt. Who knows how Wilt would have done with Red Auerbach as his coach (he won when he had strong coaches and teammates).

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If you have any doubts about Wilt, looks up his career numbers one on one against Russell. He absolutely smoked him.

It is Wilt/Kareem, then everyone else a few rungs below.

I have no doubts about Wilt....he'd be my first pick in an all time pick'em. With what's known today about training and nutrition and supplements, what Wilt might be if he'd been born 30 years later is friggin scary.

[rsvman]

Reportedly, Wilt was also a world-class volleyball player.

[MartyClark]

Reportedly, Wilt was also a world-class volleyball player.

Also a track star, if I recall correctly.

[JetpackJesus]

Another example can be borrowed from the MJ vs. LeBron debate, although this one doesn't come down to stats. Yes, clearly, LeBron is physically and statistically superior to MJ. But he also holds his team hostage every year to the point where his team is forced to continually make short-sighted "win now" moves, which ultimately resulted in the pathetic roster situation the Cavs now find themselves in. He tried to TRADE KYRIE. This roster is LeBron's own doing. He put his own career before the team. That's my argument for MJ over LeBron.

I think there's some problems with this argument based on the salary cap rules each player labored under. There was no max salary in Jordan's era, and teams could go over the salary cap to resign their own players without the penalties that exist in today's NBA. The NBA instituted the maximum salary because of Jordan.

In '97-98: Jordan made $33.1 million. The salary cap that year was $26.9 million. The average NBA payroll in '97-'98 was $32.7 million. The Bulls total payroll was >$61 million, and the total salary of all the non-MJ players on the team also exceeded the salary cap. That season Jordan's salary was higher than the entire payrolls of 19 out of the 29 teams. Jordan didn't handicap the Bulls because it was practically impossible for him to do so.

The short-sighted moves the Cavs keep making all relate to the salary cap rules now in existence.

Also, I don't think we know that it's true that LeBron tried to have Kyrie traded. I know we know Kyrie's camp thought that was the case, and, true or not, that pushed him out the door.

[kAzE]

I think there's some problems with this argument based on the salary cap rules each player labored under. There was no max salary in Jordan's era, and teams could go over the salary cap to resign their own players without the penalties that exist in today's NBA. The NBA instituted the maximum salary because of Jordan.

In '97-98: Jordan made $33.1 million. The salary cap that year was $26.9 million. The average NBA payroll in '97-'98 was $32.7 million. The Bulls total payroll was >$61 million, and the total salary of all the non-MJ players on the team also exceeded the salary cap. That season Jordan's salary was higher than the entire payrolls of 19 out of the 29 teams. Jordan didn't handicap the Bulls because it was practically impossible for him to do so.

The short-sighted moves the Cavs keep making all relate to the salary cap rules now in existence.

Also, I don't think we know that it's true that LeBron tried to have Kyrie traded. I know we know Kyrie's camp thought that was the case, and, true or not, that pushed him out the door.

To the first bolded point: Jordan never signed 2 year deals with an opt-out clause after 1 year, which is what LeBron does EVERY year. Even before he left Cleveland the first time, the Cavs felt massive pressure to make win-now moves to keep LeBron happy. The Bulls never felt forced to bend to Jordan's every whim to appease him and keep him in Chicago. Jordan never considered leaving the Bulls for another NBA team. Even though it took 7 long years to win their first title, the Bulls were given the opportunity to make roster moves with a long term goal in mind, rather than be constantly worried about whether or not MJ would leave the team.

LeBron is also extremely passive aggressive when it comes to confrontation of any kind, making easily fixable problems much, much worse over time. When he's upset, he shuts everyone out and posts confusing, passive aggressive Tweets rather than face his problems like an adult. When things are going well, LeBron is fantastic. When they aren't, he's a cancer for team chemistry, both on and off the court.

To the 2nd point: If it was a misunderstanding, why was LeBron unable to convince Kyrie to stay? Wouldn't it have taken just one honest, open conversation to clear the air? To me, it demonstrates a lack of leadership ability.

[JasonEvans]

Back to Wilt, at one point several NBA teams seriously considered bringing him back to the NBA - when he was 50!

According to Larry Brown, Wilt used to participate in pickup games with Magic Johnson and some other pros when Wilt was in his mid-upper 40s. One day Magic called a couple cheap fouls on Wilt and Wilt made a proclamation:

"Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at the age of 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt.

"So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one (of Johnson's) shots get to the rim."

By the way, you can understand why Wilt was mad at a couple fouls and a goaltending being called because he never fouled out of a single game in his NBA career despite being perhaps the greatest rim protector of all time. We will never know how many shots he blocked because it was not an official stat back in his day, but there is shot block data on 112 of the games Wilt played in. In those 112 games, Wilt averaged 8.8 blocks per game. Put your head around that...

[sagegrouse]

Also a track star, if I recall correctly.

I recall a story from the 1970's where he was going after the world water skiing speed record.

[CDu]

To the first bolded point: Jordan never signed 2 year deals with an opt-out clause after 1 year, which is what LeBron does EVERY year. Even before he left Cleveland the first time, the Cavs felt massive pressure to make win-now moves to keep LeBron happy. The Bulls never felt forced to bend to Jordan's every whim to appease him and keep him in Chicago. Jordan never considered leaving the Bulls for another NBA team. Even though it took 7 long years to win their first title, the Bulls were given the opportunity to make roster moves with a long term goal in mind, rather than be constantly worried about whether or not MJ would leave the team.

LeBron is also extremely passive aggressive when it comes to confrontation of any kind, making easily fixable problems much, much worse over time. When he's upset, he shuts everyone out and posts confusing, passive aggressive Tweets rather than face his problems like an adult. When things are going well, LeBron is fantastic. When they aren't, he's a cancer for team chemistry, both on and off the court.

To the 2nd point: If it was a misunderstanding, why was LeBron unable to convince Kyrie to stay? Wouldn't it have taken just one honest, open conversation to clear the air? To me, it demonstrates a lack of leadership ability.

Re: Kyrie/LeBron, I don’t think LeBron had much input in it either way. I think Kyrie wanted to be the man, and knew that would never happen playing with LeBron. I also think he didn’t really like playing in Cleveland. His comments post trade seem to indicate as much on both counts. Which is, of course, fine. But I am not sure it is fair to blame LeBron for Kyrie leaving.

[CDu]

Does that include the 3 years (2 of which were championship seasons) Bill Russell was his own head coach?

All kidding aside, yes, I realize Wilt was the more efficient player in terms of stats. Again, I'm not disputing that Wilt was by far the more talented basketball player. The question here is who would you rather have on your NBA team? I ranked them #6 and #7, so obviously both guys are all-time greats who would both be incredible guys to build a franchise around. It's not like I'm saying Bill was miles ahead of Wilt, they are very, very close.

But Russell did all of the little things, like keeping the ball in play when blocking shots, making perfect outlet passes, being a humble and brilliant leader, calling plays in huddles, organizing defensive schemes, knowing how to manage his teammates' egos and just being the smartest player on the court at all times. Let's just take a step back and think about how absurd it is that Russell won 2 rings as a player coach. That is a truly ridiculous accomplishment. Perhaps he did have better teammates than Wilt, but that can't be the only reason he won 11 championships. Bill Russell was the #1 reason Bill Russell won 11 championships.

We talk about players whose contributions don't show up on the stat sheet all the time (Al Horford!), so why disregard that completely when ranking them historically?

For someone who has said that Wilt was before his time, you sure seem to have a well-formed opinion of the unseen attributes that Russell may or may not have provided.

[kAzE]

For someone who has said that Wilt was before his time, you sure seem to have a well-formed opinion of the unseen attributes that Russell may or may not have provided.

There are these things called books. I've read a couple of them about this very subject. Those aren't opinions, those facts drawn from first hand accounts

And it's not like it's a secret that Bill Russell was fantastic teammate and leader. All it takes is a quick Google search to confirm that.

Re: Kyrie/LeBron, I don’t think LeBron had much input in it either way. I think Kyrie wanted to be the man, and knew that would never happen playing with LeBron. I also think he didn’t really like playing in Cleveland. His comments post trade seem to indicate as much on both counts. Which is, of course, fine. But I am not sure it is fair to blame LeBron for Kyrie leaving.

I think that's a little bit of a mischaracterization. Kyrie was never going to become the best basketball player he could be with LeBron on his team. As you say, it's perfectly reasonable for him to want to leave the organization for any reason of his own choice. But saying that he "wanted to be the MAN" just sounds like it was totally ego-driven. I don't think Kyrie cares if he's "the man." He just wanted to be the best possible version of Kyrie Irving that he could possibly be, and that wasn't going to be possible in a role as a secondary ball handler. Like, if (and most likely WHEN) Jayson Tatum surpasses Kyrie as the best player on the Boston Celtics, I sincerely doubt Kyrie is going to want to leave Boston. Maybe that's semantics, but I think my rationale is much less egotistical-sounding in nature. Even now, I would argue Al Horford is the actual leader of the Celtics, not Kyrie. But Kyrie is the #1 ball handler.

So, even if that's not part of the equation, I still have a big issue with LeBron's contract structure. If he was truly committed to winning championships, he would have been willing to take a pay cut (Tom Brady/Golden State Warriors style) in order to achieve a roster capable of winning in the long term. But in the end, LeBron is all about LeBron. And that's why Jordan is still the GOAT.

[CDu]

There are these things called books. I've read a couple of them about this very subject. Those aren't opinions, those facts drawn from first hand accounts

And it's not like it's a secret that Bill Russell was fantastic teammate and leader. All it takes is a quick Google search to confirm that.



I think that's a little bit of a mischaracterization. Kyrie was never going to become the best basketball player he could be with LeBron on his team. As you say, it's perfectly reasonable for him to want to leave the organization for any reason of his own choice. But saying that he "wanted to be the MAN" just sounds like it was totally ego-driven. I don't think Kyrie cares if he's "the man." He just wanted to be the best possible version of Kyrie Irving that he could possibly be, and that wasn't going to be possible in a role as a secondary ball handler. Maybe that's semantics, but I think my rationale is much less egotistical-sounding in nature.

So, even if that's not part of the equation, I still have a big issue with LeBron's contract structure. If he was truly committed to winning championships, he would have been willing to take a pay cut (Tom Brady/Golden State Warriors style) in order to achieve a roster capable of winning in the long term. But in the end, LeBron is all about LeBron. And that's why Jordan is still the GOAT.

I am not sure why you think Kyrie doesn’t want to be the man. But, it doesn’t matter I guess because it is all conjecture on both our parts.

I will say that it is unfair to talk about LeBron’s contract structure when pretty much everyone takes top dollar. Brady is in a pretty specific circumstance in that his wife might have made even more money than him. It is much easier to take less when you marry as wealthy as Brady did. Also, LeBron DID take less when he was in Miami (Wade made more money than LeBron there). So I don’t blame him for saying “forget that” now.

And with respect to your comparison to Jordan, Jordan DID actually hold things over the Bulls in the first chance he got. The problem is that the money wasn’t as good when he was young. He signed a $25 million deal in 1988... for 8 years. That contract (signed before he was established as best in the league) gave him financial security at a time when the NBA was still developing into the lucrative business it is today. But it also prevented him from playing Geppetto until much later in his career. Once he became a free agent again, he did in fact sign one-year deals. And he strongarmed the organization into paying the guys he specifically wanted or else he would retire. Twice, the Bulls complied. When they were done with Phil, Jordan retired. So I don’t think it is appropriate to call out LeBron relative to Jordan on this. Because Jordan would have done the exact same thing had he had the opportunity. And the proof is in the fact that he did just that at the first real chance he got.

As for those facts you have read about Russell, I suspect they are part fact and part romanticism.

[kAzE]

I am not sure why you think Kyrie doesn’t want to be the man. But, it doesn’t matter I guess because it is all conjecture on both our parts.

I will say that it is unfair to talk about LeBron’s contract structure when pretty much everyone takes top dollar. Brady is in a pretty specific circumstance in that his wife might have made even more money than him. It is much easier to take less when you marry as wealthy as Brady did. Also, LeBron DID take less when he was in Miami (Wade made more money than LeBron there). So I don’t blame him for saying “forget that” now.

And with respect to your comparison to Jordan, Jordan DID actually hold things over the Bulls in the first chance he got. The problem is that the money wasn’t as good when he was young. He signed a $25 million deal in 1988... for 8 years. That contract (signed before he was established as best in the league) gave him financial security at a time when the NBA was still developing into the lucrative business it is today. But it also prevented him from playing Geppetto until much later in his career. Once he became a free agent again, he did in fact sign one-year deals. And he strongarmed the organization into paying the guys he specifically wanted or else he would retire. Twice, the Bulls complied. When they were done with Phil, Jordan retired. So I don’t think it is appropriate to call out LeBron relative to Jordan on this. Because Jordan would have done the exact same thing had he had the opportunity. And the proof is in the fact that he did just that at the first real chance he got.

As for those facts you have read about Russell, I suspect they are part fact and part romanticism.

Okay, those are some fair points.

On the Kyrie subject, I made a couple of edits in my original post to include some examples of why I don't think he cares about being the "man." First, Horford is the actual leader of the team, and 2nd, Tatum is going to eventually be the best player. I don't think either of those guys bothers Kyrie. LeBron was the problem. Playing with LeBron is not easy. Brian Windhorst (who will eventually write LeBron's biography) has said it many times.

As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell more than the 1 time. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

As for Jordan, you got me there. I didn't know about his 1 year contracts. But for all the strongarming going on between those 2 guys, at least Jordan made the right moves. LeBron destroyed his own chances to beat the Warriors by overpaying JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. As atrocious of a GM as Jordan has been with the Hornets/Bobcats, he's still a WAY better GM than LeBron. LeBron's got some painful years ahead of his as a basketball executive (which he clearly intends to become after retirement).

And for the record, I LOVE debates like this. This thread is amazing.

[Indoor66]

As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

when Wilt and Russell played there was no player movement without a trade. No free agency did not exist. You did not pick your teammates.

Wilt was a very nice, gentle man. He was very competetive, as was Russell. That said, they were friends and often had dinner in each others home when they played. It was a different era of interpersonal relationships and is hard to understand without a longer frame of reference than you appear to have.

[CDu]

Okay, those are some fair points.

On the Kyrie subject, I made a couple of edits in my original post to include some examples of why I don't think he cares about being the "man." First, Horford is the actual leader of the team, and 2nd, Tatum is going to eventually be the best player. I don't think either of those guys bothers Kyrie. LeBron was the problem. Playing with LeBron is not easy. Brian Windhorst (who will eventually write LeBron's biography) has said it many times.

As for Wilt and Russell, it's never going to be settled. There will always be Wilt people and Russell people. I'm not sure what part of what I posted you consider romanticized, but by all accounts, these things are true. If Russell had better teammates, it's mostly likely because guys wanted to play with him. Is that his fault? Who wants to play with a guy who takes 50 shots a game? That fact stands that Russell has 11 rings to Wilt's 2 (only 1 of which happened while Russell was in the league). Were his teammates that much better than Wilt's? It's beyond insanity to repeat the same mistakes 11 times. Wilt had plenty of time to try to get better teammates around him, even switching teams a few times. If he was truly the best player in the league, he should have been able to overcome Russell more than the 1 time. At some point, you've got to consider that those 11 rings had something to do with Russell's superiority in some way over Wilt.

As for Jordan, you got me there. I didn't know about his 1 year contracts. But for all the strongarming going on between those 2 guys, at least Jordan made the right moves. LeBron destroyed his own chances to beat the Warriors by overpaying JR Smith and Tristan Thompson. As atrocious of a GM as Jordan has been with the Hornets/Bobcats, he's still a WAY better GM than LeBron. LeBron's got some painful years ahead of his as a basketball executive (which he clearly intends to become after retirement).

And for the record, I LOVE debates like this. This thread is amazing.

Agree that the GOAT debate won’t be settled. But I feel the need to clarify a point on an argument that isn’t relevant. Players didn’t choose where they played in the NBA of the 50s and 60s (or even the 70s). Free agency really didn’t exist in the NBA until the late-80s. So Russell having better teammates than Wilt would have had nothing to do with players preferring to play with Russell. It had everything to do with them having been drafted or traded for by Auerbach. Conversely, Wilt didn’t get to try to find the teammates to beat Russell. He was limited to the team that drafted him and the teams that traded for him.

[kAzE]

Wilt was a very nice, gentle man.

What are you talking about? Wilt was a notoriously bad teammate. He also continually got coaches fired, Boogie Cousins style. Franklin Mieuli, the owner of San Francisco Warriors at the time they traded Wilt was quoted saying "Chamberlain is not an easy man to love [and] the fans in San Francisco never learned to love him. Wilt is easy to hate [...] people came to see him lose."

He's even the starting center of the of the All-Time Terrible Teammate Team.

Players didn’t choose where they played in the NBA of the 50s and 60s (or even the 70s). Free agency really didn’t exist in the NBA until the late-80s. So Russell having better teammates than Wilt would have had nothing to do with players preferring to play with Russell. It had everything to do with them having been drafted or traded for by Auerbach. Conversely, Wilt didn’t get to try to find the teammates to beat Russell. He was limited to the team that drafted him and the teams that traded for him.

Yep, I totally forgot about that . . . I shouldn't have posted that argument. I knew that . . .

[CDu]

What are you talking about? Wilt was a notoriously bad teammate. He also continually got coaches fired, Boogie Cousins style. Franklin Mieuli, the owner of San Francisco Warriors at the time they traded Wilt was quoted saying "Chamberlain is not an easy man to love [and] the fans in San Francisco never learned to love him. Wilt is easy to hate [...] people came to see him lose."

He's even the starting center of the of the All-Time Terrible Teammate Team.



Yep, I totally forgot about that . . . I shouldn't have posted that argument. I knew that . . .

To be fair, that quote is talking about the Warriors’ fans, not the players. I think folks who didn’t know him could find reason to cheer against him out of jealousy, much like they did Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and even LeBron.

And that “All Terrible Teammate” list is one dude’s opinion, and the evidence he presented was a quote... from another blog post he himself made.

[22JumpShots]

Yao. Ming.

[skysdad]

Yao. Ming.

As far as Wilt vs. Shaq goes Wilt would have worn him out. If Shaq would have tried his signature move by backing his defender in and getting so close to the basket he would dunk the ball. With Wilt it would be like moving a brick wall . In my opinion there are at least 5 or 6 bette rcenters who have played the game.