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Thread: 2018 NBA Draft

  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    Yeah, Rose was thrown around too.

    But I think Jim's point still holds. Many around here (and in the media) played the comparison game with exceptional college/NBA players. Which is a sobering contrast to what actually played out on draft night for Trevon.

    - Chillin
    Also, "a sobering contrast to what actually played out" at Duke.

  2. #582
    Adam Zagoria: Duke PG Trevon Duval will play summer league with the Rockets, per his dad.

    Rockets summer league team, per source, will include Trevon Duval, Rob Gray, Markel Brown, Deng Adel and R.J. Hunter, plus their own guys, Zhou Qi, Chinanu Onuaku, Vncent Edwards and De'Anthony Melton. Hartenstein likely.

    https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Feigen/...95619469172738


    I look forward to watching him play for the Rockets squad. I think the up and down pace of summer league will present Trevon with the opportunity to show off his strongest skills. Hopefully he can impress some of the teams that passed on him last night.
       

  3. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Duval came to Duke as a consensus top-10 recruit, a sure-fire OAD, was handed the point-guard-keys to the pre-season number one team, a starting lineup that included four top-40 draft selections. Kyrie Irving, v. 2.

    So, going undrafted has to be pretty sobering. He has to resist some natural human inclinations. He can't blame someone else, he can't feel sorry for himself, he can't lose himself in second-guessing.

    He came to a fork in the road and he took it. Next play.

    There's an old jazz expression; "woodshedding." He needs to get into the figurative woodshed and refine his craft.

    As an aside, I absolutely expected Duval to be drafted last night, no later than mid-40s, likely earlier that that.

    So, color me very, very surprised.
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.

    I’m not making a judgement on it all, I think these kids know that too, and it’s their choice and responsibility on ultimately where to go.

    Duval just made a mistake judging his own talents and was left hanging out there.

  4. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.

    I’m not making a judgement on it all, I think these kids know that too, and it’s their choice and responsibility on ultimately where to go.

    Duval just made a mistake judging his own talents and was left hanging out there.

    While I enjoy having your UNC POV on this board this reeks of being a massive troll post.

  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.

    I’m not making a judgement on it all, I think these kids know that too, and it’s their choice and responsibility on ultimately where to go.

    Duval just made a mistake judging his own talents and was left hanging out there.
    It depends on the player. Allen certainly stepped up from a bit role to stardom over time. Matt Jones didn’t star, but became a solid starter. Jefferson and Plumlee 3 developed a ton. Kennard only stayed two years, but clearly he developed. It seems like the same is happening for DeLaurier and Bolden too, who went from nonparticipants as frosh to being a key starter and sixth man next year as juniors.

    Now, the top-10 recruits aren’t sticking around, for good or for bad. But that is kind of the nature of the top-10 these days. Only about one or two in 10 each year stay more than a year or two, with most being one and done. If your program doesn’t get your top 10 recruits to the NBA in one year, it looks bad for your program (part of why the top recruits have mostly stopped going to UNC in recent years). So for those guys, we are an avenue to the pros in one year. But for those next-tier recruits who do decide to stay, they have generally developed into bigger roles over time in the program.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.

    I’m not making a judgement on it all, I think these kids know that too, and it’s their choice and responsibility on ultimately where to go.

    Duval just made a mistake judging his own talents and was left hanging out there.
    maybe. but as pointed out on the podcast, maybe he was just ready to not be in school anymore and wanted to go pro regardless of draft status.
    All of the things that Trevon needs to work on to some day play in the NBA, he can practice more of, and against better players, away from Duke. Due to the way contracts are structured these days, had he stayed and improved the areas he was lacking and subsequently improved his draft stock, he may have cost himself a lot of money. Otoh, maybe he wouldn't have improved as much in another year at Duke as expected and gone undrafted again. In that scenario he may have improved his situation by starting his pro career now.
    It's all a guessing game at this point since Trevon hasn't said anything and neither has Duke.

  7. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.

    I’m not making a judgement on it all, I think these kids know that too, and it’s their choice and responsibility on ultimately where to go.

    Duval just made a mistake judging his own talents and was left hanging out there.
    Youve got the cart before the horse, wheat. It’s the incoming player’s game plan that drives Duke recruiting. Kid makes it clear he expects to be NBA ready by the end of his fresh year, then of course Duke will try to recruit a replacement for the following year. If the kid says, “I’m going to play in the NBA someday; but for now I’m here to work my butt off for the GOAT. I hope to be ready in a year or two.” then the recruiting priorities migh be different. Perhaps Tre Jones decides to go elsewhere.

    Was there ever ever any doubt that Duvall would be 1nD, ready or not? No. So dont blame the program for “not developing” players.

  8. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Seems to me, Duke is a sink or swim school these days. The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. It’s go big or go home with this one and done recruiting strategy. Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next. It’s all business.
    It's unfortunate that we couldn't develop Allen like UNC did with Berry and Theo.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    While I enjoy having your UNC POV on this board this reeks of being a massive troll post.
    Respectfully, I disagree. This thread devolved many pages ago into a general referendum on Trevon Duval, and Wheat's take is not that different from others who have opined on the one-and-done model. I think it's worthwhile to have other perspectives on this board, so I'm happy to defend Wheat when he's making a rational contribution to the thread.

    Apologies if I'm further devolving this thread from a referendum on one-and-done to another typical topic: whether Wheat is trolling.

  10. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    It depends on the player. Allen certainly stepped up from a bit role to stardom over time. Matt Jones didn’t star, but became a solid starter. Jefferson and Plumlee 3 developed a ton. Kennard only stayed two years, but clearly he developed. It seems like the same is happening for DeLaurier and Bolden too, who went from nonparticipants as frosh to being a key starter and sixth man next year as juniors.

    Now, the top-10 recruits aren’t sticking around, for good or for bad. But that is kind of the nature of the top-10 these days. Only about one or two in 10 each year stay more than a year or two, with most being one and done. If your program doesn’t get your top 10 recruits to the NBA in one year, it looks bad for your program (part of why the top recruits have mostly stopped going to UNC in recent years). So for those guys, we are an avenue to the pros in one year. But for those next-tier recruits who do decide to stay, they have generally developed into bigger roles over time in the program.
    I was referring to OAD’s...all your examples were not considered OAD, except maybe Bolden, correct?

    I’m not saying Duke’s not developing players, just that those OAD types that do come to Duke and struggle some are not willing to stay because they know what’s coming behind them. They are taking their chances and declaring, rather than come back. K not playing a deep rotation factors in too.

    I don’t think it looks bad at all if a player stays when he’s not ready, myself. I think rival fans like to make that out as the case for UNC, but anybody who pays attention saw that Justin Jackson, for instance, was not physically mature enough after his first year to go...or his second, and he was top ten. UNC never held him back. In fact, I’d argue he has a better chance at a long career by staying his three seasons. Same with Barnes coming back for a second year.

    BTW, I don’t see the same criticism about Michigan and a player like Miles Bridges staying and claiming it hurts their recruiting.

    The uncertainty of the ncaa investigation was what hurt UNC recruiting for a few years, and Roy goy through it with excellent talent/character evaluations he could build on.

  11. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I was referring to OAD’s...all your examples were not considered OAD, except maybe Bolden, correct?

    I’m not saying Duke’s not developing players, just that those OAD types that do come to Duke and struggle some are not willing to stay because they know what’s coming behind them. They are taking their chances and declaring, rather than come back. K not playing a deep rotation factors in too.

    I don’t think it looks bad at all if a player stays when he’s not ready, myself. I think rival fans like to make that out as the case for UNC, but anybody who pays attention saw that Justin Jackson, for instance, was not physically mature enough after his first year to go...or his second, and he was top ten. UNC never held him back. In fact, I’d argue he has a better chance at a long career by staying his three seasons. Same with Barnes coming back for a second year.

    BTW, I don’t see the same criticism about Michigan and a player like Miles Bridges staying and claiming it hurts their recruiting.

    The uncertainty of the ncaa investigation was what hurt UNC recruiting for a few years, and Roy goy through it with excellent talent/character evaluations he could build on.
    Yes, all of my examples are not one and dones. Which is kind of the point: one and dones are, by nature, short-term. They don’t get a lot of time to develop. That isn’t to say that none develop: Tatum pretty clearly evolved in his one year, as did Carter this year, Ingram two years ago, and Winslow 3 years ago. But it is hard to really develop one and dones in one year since so much of development happens in the offseason. You said Duke wasn’t developing players anymore. My examples were the counterargument to disprove your point.

    Also, the one and dones at Duke have typically not struggled. Duval did, and Giles did thanks to injury. But most were studs in their one year. Parker, Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Irving, Rivers, Ingram, Tatum, Bagley, Carter, Trent. The hit rate is pretty darn good. One or two misses along the way ain’t too shabby: recruiting isn’t an exact science.

    I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out. Trent and/or Duval would have played a TON had they stayed. But they came to Duke seeing themselves as elite, one and done players. It is hard to change that perception. They chose to go, not the other way around. Heck, Duval hinted as such back in February.

    And if you don’t think missing on getting one-and-dones to the pros is a bad look, I think you are not paying attention. As a UNC fan, that is expected: your school is pretty much the only one that regularly takes top-10 recruits and convinces them to stay longer, usually at the detriment of their draft stock. The scandal didn’t help with one and dones either, but you are kidding yourself if you think the repeated failure to get top-10 guys to the league in one year hasn’t hurt in recruiting. Fortunately, the holding guys back longer than others worked out, as you managed to get a team loaded with second-tier juniors and seniors for three or four years. That well is likely running dry now. It will be interesting to see what happens with third-tier vets and talented freshmen. Very different than what you have been used to.

    As for MSU, it doesn’t get too much grief for Bridges because he is the only example they have had like that. Izzo doesn’t get many top-10 guys to begin with, so he doesn’t have many shots at one and done. Bridges did raise eyebrows by returning, but it takes more than one to screw it up. And they made good with Jackson Jr this year.

  12. #592
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    If last night wasn't enough for you try this on for size.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...cid=spartanntp

  13. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    If last night wasn't enough for you try this on for size.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...cid=spartanntp
    No Tre Jones or Marques Bolden. Three Duke freshmen in the top 5 (of what should be labeled the way, way, way, way too early mock draft). This will certainly be an interesting year!

  14. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yes, all of my examples are not one and dones. Which is kind of the point: one and dones are, by nature, short-term. They don’t get a lot of time to develop. That isn’t to say that none develop: Tatum pretty clearly evolved in his one year, as did Carter this year, Ingram two years ago, and Winslow 3 years ago. But it is hard to really develop one and dones in one year since so much of development happens in the offseason. You said Duke wasn’t developing players anymore. My examples were the counterargument to disprove your point.

    Also, the one and dones at Duke have typically not struggled. Duval did, and Giles did thanks to injury. But most were studs in their one year. Parker, Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Irving, Rivers, Ingram, Tatum, Bagley, Carter, Trent. The hit rate is pretty darn good. One or two misses along the way ain’t too shabby: recruiting isn’t an exact science.

    [B]I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out. [B/]Trent and/or Duval would have played a TON had they stayed. But they came to Duke seeing themselves as elite, one and done players. It is hard to change that perception. They chose to go, not the other way around. Heck, Duval hinted as such back in February.

    And if you don’t think missing on getting one-and-dones to the pros is a bad look, I think you are not paying attention. As a UNC fan, that is expected: your school is pretty much the only one that regularly takes top-10 recruits and convinces them to stay longer, usually at the detriment of their draft stock. The scandal didn’t help with one and dones either, but you are kidding yourself if you think the repeated failure to get top-10 guys to the league in one year hasn’t hurt in recruiting. Fortunately, the holding guys back longer than others worked out, as you managed to get a team loaded with second-tier juniors and seniors for three or four years. That well is likely running dry now. It will be interesting to see what happens with third-tier vets and talented freshmen. Very different than what you have been used to.

    As for MSU, it doesn’t get too much grief for Bridges because he is the only example they have had like that. Izzo doesn’t get many top-10 guys to begin with, so he doesn’t have many shots at one and done. Bridges did raise eyebrows by returning, but it takes more than one to screw it up. And they made good with Jackson Jr this year.
    First, I never said “Duke wasn’t developing players anymore”, that’s your quote, what I said was “The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. ” There is a big difference. I was thinking about players like Frank Jackson, Trent and Duval there, and it’s true.

    And I didn’t say “I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out.” Your quote...I said “Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next.”
    They are feeling the pressure themselves and are opting to leave. I don’t think coach K is pushing anybody out.

    Nobody at UNC held anybody back, and never will. I have no doubt that Roy and staff want the best for their players. The guys who stayed simply weren’t ready. The rankings were flat wrong and expectations based on those rankings too high for some fans.

    If you think it’s hurting UNC recruiting, that’s OK. It makes the back to back championship game appearances, including a national title, that much more impressive, right?

    Look, I’m not trying to ‘diss Duke on this. Just pointing out what I think is happening with some players with the current recruiting strategy coach K has.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    First, I never said “Duke wasn’t developing players anymore”, that’s your quote, what I said was “The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. ” There is a big difference. I was thinking about players like Frank Jackson, Trent and Duval there, and it’s true.

    And I didn’t say “I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out.” Your quote...I said “Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next.”
    They are feeling the pressure themselves and are opting to leave. I don’t think coach K is pushing anybody out.

    Nobody at UNC held anybody back, and never will. I have no doubt that Roy and staff want the best for their players. The guys who stayed simply weren’t ready. The rankings were flat wrong and expectations based on those rankings too high for some fans.

    If you think it’s hurting UNC recruiting, that’s OK. It makes the back to back championship game appearances, including a national title, that much more impressive, right?

    Look, I’m not trying to ‘diss Duke on this. Just pointing out what I think is happening with some players with the current recruiting strategy coach K has.
    jlaw.jpg

  16. #596

    I think

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I was referring to OAD’s...all your examples were not considered OAD, except maybe Bolden, correct?

    I’m not saying Duke’s not developing players, just that those OAD types that do come to Duke and struggle some are not willing to stay because they know what’s coming behind them. They are taking their chances and declaring, rather than come back. K not playing a deep rotation factors in too.

    I don’t think it looks bad at all if a player stays when he’s not ready, myself. I think rival fans like to make that out as the case for UNC, but anybody who pays attention saw that Justin Jackson, for instance, was not physically mature enough after his first year to go...or his second, and he was top ten. UNC never held him back. In fact, I’d argue he has a better chance at a long career by staying his three seasons. Same with Barnes coming back for a second year.

    BTW, I don’t see the same criticism about Michigan and a player like Miles Bridges staying and claiming it hurts their recruiting.

    The uncertainty of the ncaa investigation was what hurt UNC recruiting for a few years, and Roy goy through it with excellent talent/character evaluations he could build on.
    Most OADS would be NoneADs if they could. They leave because they think they can play in the Association. They play for a year in college because the rules don't let them go pro.

    The ncaa investigation meant that the NODs did not bother with Roy.

    SoiCal

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    First, I never said “Duke wasn’t developing players anymore”, that’s your quote, what I said was “The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. ” There is a big difference. I was thinking about players like Frank Jackson, Trent and Duval there, and it’s true.

    And I didn’t say “I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out.” Your quote...I said “Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next.”
    They are feeling the pressure themselves and are opting to leave. I don’t think coach K is pushing anybody out.

    Nobody at UNC held anybody back, and never will. I have no doubt that Roy and staff want the best for their players. The guys who stayed simply weren’t ready. The rankings were flat wrong and expectations based on those rankings too high for some fans.

    If you think it’s hurting UNC recruiting, that’s OK. It makes the back to back championship game appearances, including a national title, that much more impressive, right?

    Look, I’m not trying to ‘diss Duke on this. Just pointing out what I think is happening with some players with the current recruiting strategy coach K has.
    If only Duke could have developed their heralded freshman PG (Duval) as well as UNC developed their own (Felton). By the way how is that working out??

    In terms of not hurting recruiting and two title game appearances how does 6th place finish in ACC and losing veritable home game by 20to medicore SEC football school play into that?
    Last edited by Natty_B; 06-23-2018 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Had to add Texas A&M burn

  18. #598
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    First, I never said “Duke wasn’t developing players anymore”, that’s your quote, what I said was “The commitment to develope a player is not as strong as it once was. ” There is a big difference. I was thinking about players like Frank Jackson, Trent and Duval there, and it’s true.

    And I didn’t say “I think you are also wrong about the leaving. They aren’t being pushed out.” Your quote...I said “Kids are expected to produce in their first year or face the next one and done at their position the next.”
    They are feeling the pressure themselves and are opting to leave. I don’t think coach K is pushing anybody out.

    Nobody at UNC held anybody back, and never will. I have no doubt that Roy and staff want the best for their players. The guys who stayed simply weren’t ready. The rankings were flat wrong and expectations based on those rankings too high for some fans.

    If you think it’s hurting UNC recruiting, that’s OK. It makes the back to back championship game appearances, including a national title, that much more impressive, right?

    Look, I’m not trying to ‘diss Duke on this. Just pointing out what I think is happening with some players with the current recruiting strategy coach K has.
    Regardless of the exact wording, the sentiment is similar. And what you said is still wrong. The commitment to develop players at Duke is still as strong as ever, as evidenced by the examples I listed. Not all players develop in the same pace. And with one and dones, if they don’t develop in that year, that’s it.

    And no, there was no “feeling the pressure from the next class.” Jackson would have been a starter and a star had he stayed. And as I said, Trent and Duval would have been starters next year too.

    Those guys didn’t leave because of pressure from the next class. They CHOSE to leave because they saw themselves as one and dones and their goal was the NBA. And that is fine, they can make their own choices. But it has nothing to do with how Duke does things. Hell, Bolden even thought he was a one and done, and seriously considered leaving after one year of barely playing. But he stayed, and has developed to the point that he now looks to be a key starter and veteran post anchor on a championship caliber team. Development. Imagine that. Folks run their own races at their own pace.

    It is understandable that you don’t get that, since your program stinks at helping players achieve their NBA dreams as quickly as possible. Maybe if Little goes one and done as he should, you will start to understand it better.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Regardless of the exact wording, the sentiment is similar. And what you said is still wrong. The commitment to develop players at Duke is still as strong as ever, as evidenced by the examples I listed. Not all players develop in the same pace. And with one and dones, if they don’t develop in that year, that’s it.

    And no, there was no “feeling the pressure from the next class.” Jackson would have been a starter and a star had he stayed. And as I said, Trent and Duval would have been starters next year too.

    Those guys didn’t leave because of pressure from the next class. They CHOSE to leave because they saw themselves as one and dones and their goal was the NBA. And that is fine, they can make their own choices. But it has nothing to do with how Duke does things. Hell, Bolden even thought he was a one and done, and seriously considered leaving after one year of barely playing. But he stayed, and has developed to the point that he now looks to be a key starter and veteran post anchor on a championship caliber team. Development. Imagine that. Folks run their own races at their own pace.

    It is understandable that you don’t get that, since your program stinks at helping players achieve their NBA dreams as quickly as possible. Maybe if Little goes one and done as he should, you will start to understand it better.
    I can't spork you again, but I have to thank you for nearly always responding with what I want to say, but with much better class and clarity than I would in the moment.
    Last edited by fraggler; 06-23-2018 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Spelling
       

  20. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Nobody at UNC held anybody back, and never will. I have no doubt that Roy and staff want the best for their players.
    It was well publicized that Roy tried to talk Bradley out of leaving last year, and did the same with Cameron Johnson this year. He publicly blasted Reggie Bullock for leaving (a top-15 player who had already stayed three years) claiming that “only players who make the Final Four get drafted.”

    It’s one thing if a program has a player or two that stays longer than expected every few years, that’s just part of chance. But UNC has a proven, repeatable track record of keeping highly ranked players in school longer. The high school prospects all know this and do not see your program as the place to go if they want to get to the NBA quickly. Nassir Little only fell into your lap because of the FBI investigation.

    Justin Jackson - top ten player, stayed three years
    Harrison Barnes - overal #1, two years
    John Henson - top 5, three years
    James Michael Macadoo - top 5, three years
    Theo Pinson - top 15, four years, undrafted
    Isaiah Hicks - top 15, four years, undrafted
    Ed Davis - top 10, two years
    Reggie Bullock - top 15, three years
    PJ Hairston - top 15, LOL

    That’s just off the top of my head.
       

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