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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    This is laughable and please donít start the ďletís feel sorry for Lebron because itís him and four other nobodiesĒ sympathy fest. While itís true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, itís not true this year.

    First of all, letís not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasnít going to be a cakewalk series.

    Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didnít have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

    Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs donít win this year Iíll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I wonít be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.
    This has to be a joke...
    "God gave me some height and ability but didn't necessarily give me lateral quickness or the little things that make a talented defender, but I've worked my butt off, and I think I'm pretty good at it." - Ryan "The White Raven" Kelly

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada (Ohio born and raised)
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    This is laughable and please donít start the ďletís feel sorry for Lebron because itís him and four other nobodiesĒ sympathy fest. While itís true Lebron has taken four nobodies to the finals, itís not true this year.

    First of all, letís not overreact to a round 1 loss. The Pacers are one of the hotter teams in the NBA anyway, so this wasnít going to be a cakewalk series.

    Second of all, Lebron cries every year that he needs more help, even when he is surrounded by all stars. Jordan didnít have close to some of the supporting casts that Lebron has had.

    Thirdly, the new Cavs GM rescued them at the trading deadline by trading some of their older, washed up players for a surprising haul of better defensive players and seeming players that fit better in their system. If the Cavs donít win this year Iíll hardly feel sad for Lebron. If the Cavs do make it to the Finals this year I wonít be surprised nor will I list it as one of his major accomplishments.
    Wow. You knocked that straw man out of the park!!! Good luck arguing with yourself. I hope you win!

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    This has to be a joke...
    Jordan didnít play in the super team era. He didnít leave as a free agent to play with a Dwayne Wade and a Chris Bosh. He played for one team his whole career and won, mainly because of his talents, not because of free agency decisions.

    I agree that Lebron in the past has dragged a bunch of nobodies to the finals before in his first stint with the cavs. Ever since then he has had a lot of talent and a lot of talented role players helping him.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Jordan didnít play in the super team era. He didnít leave as a free agent to play with a Dwayne Wade and a Chris Bosh. He played for one team his whole career and won, mainly because of his talents, not because of free agency decisions.

    I agree that Lebron in the past has dragged a bunch of nobodies to the finals before in his first stint with the cavs. Ever since then he has had a lot of talent and a lot of talented role players helping him.
    Excuse me, are you saying Tyronn Lue-Rip Hamilton-Kwame Brown-Brendan Haywood wasn't the foundation for a superteam? What if I add in a 33-year old Christian Laettner?

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Why this endless doting on UNC and its former players in the NBA? Most of them (but not all) are good guys once they change unis, and many are friends with their Duke contemporaries.
    Add me to the list of folks happy to see the cheats list...and especially the cheats not listed,
    like the falcon, and Hans-travel-to-china.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    Excuse me, are you saying Tyronn Lue-Rip Hamilton-Kwame Brown-Brendan Haywood wasn't the foundation for a superteam? What if I add in a 33-year old Christian Laettner?
    Oops. How could I forget the Wizards haha

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

    That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

    -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Oops. How could I forget the Wizards haha
    Well, to ask that question is to answer it.

    --from a long-suffering DC area sports fan

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

    That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

    -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans
    This. C'mon, people.
    A plane takes off from Baltimore and touches down on Bourbon Street

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Comparing greats across different eras is extremely difficult. The game changes and the players change.

    That said, pretending that Jordan had to drag those teams to titles is a little bit silly. He played alongside a HOFer in Scottie Pippen. Toni Kukoc was 6th man of the year. Dennis Rodman was Draymond Green before Draymond was Draymond, a freak on the boards and the best defender in the league. Steve Kerr and John Paxon are two of the great shooters of their era. Most importantly, the year after Jordan retired, the Bulls still won 55 games. How can anyone say Jordan's teammates were trash when those same teammates were one of the better teams in the league without him on the team?!!?

    -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans
    Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

    Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    This. C'mon, people.
    Completely agree. You don't have to like LeBron, but let's not be ridiculous about it. When LeBron walked off the floor after losing to the Celtics before going to Miami he was the best player on the floor. But the next 5 best were on the Celtics.

    Howard

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    -Jason "anyone want to speculate how many games this Cavs team would win minus Lebron? I say maybe 30... depends on whether they try to win or they tank" Evans
    Assuming you replace LeBron with a league average starting SF, assuming KLove doesn't get injured, and assuming no crippling locker room drama, I would have thought mid 30s. I feel they are better than NY and comparable to Charlotte.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by howardlander View Post
    Completely agree. You don't have to like LeBron, but let's not be ridiculous about it. When LeBron walked off the floor after losing to the Celtics before going to Miami he was the best player on the floor. But the next 5 best were on the Celtics.

    Howard
    Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada (Ohio born and raised)
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.
    2015 finals after game 1 (kyrie injured)?????

    Lebron
    Delly
    Thompson
    Shump
    Mozgov


    Steph
    Draymond
    Klay
    Barnes
    Iguodala

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

    Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.
    Small point of contention: Rodman was a great defender over the course of his career, but well past his prime in that respect during his time with the Bulls. Shawn Kemp and Karl Malone both generally had their way with him in the 96, 97 and 98 Finals. Rodman was still an elite rebounder in those years, though some thought he padded his numbers against weaker competition. As a Bull, he averaged 15.3 boards per game in the regular season and 11.3 in the playoffs; the latter figure was still very good, of course, and very important to the Bulls' success, but no longer superhuman.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    Any time this conversation comes up I like to ask, "what could Jordan do that Lebron can't?"...Also, Lebron does it in Karl Malone's body.

    Rodman is also a HOFer and arguably the best defender of his generation. Jordan had plenty of help. One last thing; when Jordan made his iconic game winner against the Cavs, who was guarding him? Craig Ehlo. Does anyone think that Craig Ehlo would get significant minutes in the modern NBA. I don't.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here, on both counts.

    Rodman was still a very useful player, but he was nearing the end of the line in his years with the Bulls. Still very good, but not nearly the defender he was in his prime.

    And Ehlo was a very good NBA player. A very good defender and a solid 3pt shooter. In his prime, Ehlo averaged double-digit scoring, 4 assists per game, and shot high-30s/low-40s 3pt % (in an era in which the 3 was undervalued). He'd absolutely be a regular in the league today. I mean, seriously, guys like Marco Belinelli are regulars in the league.

  17. #77
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Agreed, but that is the last time that's happened.
    When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by howardlander View Post
    When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.
    Pippen was certainly as good as any player LeBron ever played with. The argument really falls to the third spot on the floor and beyond. I'd argue that both Bosh and Love were better than the Bulls' third man (Grant in the early years, Rodman or Kukoc in the later years). And I'd argue that the role players Lebron has had were better than than the role players the Bulls had.

    But, that's neither here nor there. The biggest difference I see is that the quality of Bulls' opponents was lower than the quality of LeBron's opponents, especially in the Finals. There was maybe one Finals series ever in which Jordan's Bulls weren't the better team. LeBron has had less good fortune. He's run into some teams that were simply better. I'd argue that Golden State was better all 3 times they played, and San Antonio was better in 2007. His Heat were better than Dallas and OKC, and were on par with those Spurs teams (so a split seems right).

    Here's an article that discusses LeBron's playoff legacy in more detail:
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...isappointment/

    Spoiler alert: it suggests LeBron's teams did basically about what they were supposed to do. This was as of 2016, so it omits his last two Finals appearances. Both of those were expected to be losses, but they won one, which means he had 3 wins with an expectation of 3 wins.

    Jordan's Bulls did better than expected, but they were also heavy favorites in 4 of his 6 Finals appearances. And they were only underdogs once: a slight underdog to Utah. Lebron's teams were underdogs 5 of 8 times.

    If Jordan's Bulls had faced the Warriors three times and the Spurs 3 times, maybe Jordan only has 2 or 3 titles instead of six.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by howardlander View Post
    When did it ever happen to Jordan? I'd argue that, at least when the Bulls were winning titles, Jordan and Pippen were normally either the 2 best or 2 of the 3 best players. People forget how good Pippen was. He was much better than anyone LeBron has ever played with, with the possible exception of Dwayne Wade. Kyrie is a great player in his own right, but I can't put him at Pippen's level.
    You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_season.html
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    You think Pippen was the second best or third best player in the league? On the Bulls, most certainly. But better than Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, Isiah, Robinson, Shaq, and Olajuwon? No way. Hell, Pippen never broke the top 250 PER in seasons: https://www.basketball-reference.com...er_season.html
    For the period where the Bulls were at their peak? ('91-'98) Yeah, he definitely was in the conversation. Bird, Magic & Isiah were all out of the league/ on the downslide by then. Pippen was better than Barkley or Robinson. Malone, Shaq and Hakeem were all in the conversation with him, but Pippen absolutely was one of the best players in the NBA in his prime.

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