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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    Fayetteville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I'm with you. We don't need 5 alpha dogs on the floor at once (something that may have happened a little with this year's team).
    You might be the only person who feels this way about our team this past season. I'd say it was the exact opposite.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    You might be the only person who feels this way about our team this past season. I'd say it was the exact opposite.
    I agree with you. With Grayson focusing on his composure, our team didn't have any... swagger. Or moxie. Or whatever you want to call it.
    Repartee is something we think of twenty-four hours too late.

    - Twain

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by proelitedota View Post
    My god he should swap height and wingspan with Zion.

    Imagine instead...

    Zion: 6'9.5 (in own shoes), 7'0 wingspan, 250 lbs.
    Reddish: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'10 wingspan, 205 lbs.
    Barret: 6'6.5 (in own shoes), 6'9 wingspan, 208 lbs.

    No reason not to play small ball with Zion at 5, and AOC for extended minutes.
    We could just imagine this starting lineup:

    PG: Tre Jones, 6'3" (w/ shoes) tall, 6'4" wingspan, 187 bls.
    SG: R.J. Barrett, 6'6.5" tall, 6'8" wingspan, 208 lbs.
    SF: Cameron Reddish, 6'9" tall, 7'0" tall wingspan, 207 lbs.
    PF: Zion Williamson, 6'6.5" tall, 6'10" wingspan, 250 lbs.
    C: Marques Bolden, 6'11" tall, 7'5" wingspan, 250 lbs.

    Seems like a lineup capable of playing a good zone. Also worth pointing out that Bolden and Carter had nearly identical offensive rebounding and block rates last year.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    We could just imagine this starting lineup:

    PG: Tre Jones, 6'3" (w/ shoes) tall, 6'4" wingspan, 187 bls.
    SG: R.J. Barrett, 6'6.5" tall, 6'8" wingspan, 208 lbs.
    SF: Cameron Reddish, 6'9" tall, 7'0" tall wingspan, 207 lbs.
    PF: Zion Williamson, 6'6.5" tall, 6'10" wingspan, 250 lbs.
    C: Marques Bolden, 6'11" tall, 7'5" wingspan, 250 lbs.

    Seems like a lineup capable of playing a good zone. Also worth pointing out that Bolden and Carter had nearly identical offensive rebounding and block rates last year.

    Barret actually has a 6'9 or 6'9.5 wingspan.

    Next year's team is the tallest and longest Duke team i've seen across the board. It might also be the heaviest.

    We should emphasize O/D boards from all 5 positions on the floor.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by proelitedota View Post
    Barret actually has a 6'9 or 6'9.5 wingspan.

    Next year's team is the tallest and longest Duke team i've seen across the board. It might also be the heaviest.

    We should emphasize O/D boards from all 5 positions on the floor.
    My bad!

    I was just looking through comparisons of recent Duke players and found that Cam Reddish is about the same height and wingspan as Amile Jefferson was coming out of high school with the exception that Reddish is 10 pounds heavier.

    Also, Javin DeLaurier is about the same, too, at 6'10" with a 7'0" wingspan and 8'10" standing reach but much more filled out at 220+ pounds. I wouldn't be surprised to see Reddish, DeLaurier, and Bolden out there for stretches of time next season, which would give the team a super lengthy frontline. It might not be a good shooting team, but it could at least be an efficient offensive team with all that passing and offensive rebounding potential.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    There is legitimate concern about Duke's ability to hit 3 's consistently next year and knowing that teams will likely zone Duke. A zone can be beat by good passing and driving. Duke will have 4 players that fit that description and have decent mid-range games. The thought of Barrett and Reddish in the middle of the zone is interesting/comforting.

    I never liked the chemistry of this past year's team. Not in the sense that the guys didn't get along or that anyone had a bad attitude but more in the sense that they never clicked and had flow. As powerful as the offense was for most of last year it seemed disjointed to me. I'm hopeful that the team next year develops good chemistry quickly this year, establishing flow and identity. That is why i'm hoping that Duke doesn't add anyone else. I think they have enough pieces and it is just a matter of letting the guys develop some chemistry.

  7. #87
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    Oct 2013
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    Madison, WI
    Quote Originally Posted by whereinthehellami View Post
    There is legitimate concern about Duke's ability to hit 3 's consistently next year and knowing that teams will likely zone Duke. A zone can be beat by good passing and driving. Duke will have 4 players that fit that description and have decent mid-range games. The thought of Barrett and Reddish in the middle of the zone is interesting/comforting.

    I never liked the chemistry of this past year's team. Not in the sense that the guys didn't get along or that anyone had a bad attitude but more in the sense that they never clicked and had flow. As powerful as the offense was for most of last year it seemed disjointed to me. I'm hopeful that the team next year develops good chemistry quickly this year, establishing flow and identity. That is why i'm hoping that Duke doesn't add anyone else. I think they have enough pieces and it is just a matter of letting the guys develop some chemistry.
    I'm with you. It seemed that in the 4 and a half games that Marvin Bagley missed due to injury, we functioned more smoothly as an offensive unit. Obviously, Bagley was our best player, but the offense just seemed to make more sense from a chemistry standpoint when he didn't play. Maybe it was just that we had some good matchups during his missed games, but Grayson just looked more comfortable and was able to be himself and do some of the things (especially driving into the paint) that made him an all-american in his sophomore year. With both Bagley and Carter on the floor, it was much harder for him to do those things.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I'm with you. It seemed that in the 4 and a half games that Marvin Bagley missed due to injury, we functioned more smoothly as an offensive unit. Obviously, Bagley was our best player, but the offense just seemed to make more sense from a chemistry standpoint when he didn't play. Maybe it was just that we had some good matchups during his missed games, but Grayson just looked more comfortable and was able to be himself and do some of the things (especially driving into the paint) that made him an all-american in his sophomore year. With both Bagley and Carter on the floor, it was much harder for him to do those things.
    I agree with the above statements and am looking forward to a more spread out offense in which all the ball handlers will have the ability to get into the lane. Not every team will zone Duke, after all. Few teams run that defense. Bolden is the only traditional big on this team that likes to post up, but he has not been a focal point of the offense in his time at Duke. He's more likely to be a part of the pick-and-roll than to just hang out in the paint. That leaves Jones, Barrett, Reddish, and Williamson with a lot of real estate to move to the basket. Instead of a drive-and-kick offense, we might see a lot drive-and-dish in which Barrett or Reddish dump it off to a cutting teammate that just got freed up by a pick or exploited a switch. Most 3's should be open shots as the defense collapses in to cover the cutting wing or after an offensive rebound.

    From watching bits of the all-star games and Nike Hoops Summit, it seems clear that Barrett is going to see the ball in his hands a lot, but that the ball is going to move. He's a facilitator as well as a creator. I'm really excited to see what he can do playing with all those weapons around him.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    I agree with the above statements and am looking forward to a more spread out offense in which all the ball handlers will have the ability to get into the lane. Not every team will zone Duke, after all. Few teams run that defense. Bolden is the only traditional big on this team that likes to post up, but he has not been a focal point of the offense in his time at Duke. He's more likely to be a part of the pick-and-roll than to just hang out in the paint. That leaves Jones, Barrett, Reddish, and Williamson with a lot of real estate to move to the basket. Instead of a drive-and-kick offense, we might see a lot drive-and-dish in which Barrett or Reddish dump it off to a cutting teammate that just got freed up by a pick or exploited a switch. Most 3's should be open shots as the defense collapses in to cover the cutting wing or after an offensive rebound.

    From watching bits of the all-star games and Nike Hoops Summit, it seems clear that Barrett is going to see the ball in his hands a lot, but that the ball is going to move. He's a facilitator as well as a creator. I'm really excited to see what he can do playing with all those weapons around him.
    I agree with kaze that this year's team just didn't gel well. I'm putting the vast majority of that on a) freshman and b) not everyone embracing their true roles/deferring too much.

    But I'm not banking on everyone gelling next year, either. For one, just because you like each other doesn't mean you can play well together. It helps, but it's far from a guarantee. The guy I gelled with the most in Duke pick up games is a kid from a rival fraternity. It just depends on how much you buy into your role.

    Next year, the pieces don't fit as nicely as this year. This year, we had a true PG, two true wings, a perfect 4, and a college 5. And there were some issues. Next year, we have a true PG. We have 3 wings of various heights (come on down, Cam!), various weights (come on down, Zion!), and various motivation (come on down, RJ!) who likely all have some issues shooting the 3 (Cam is the best of the 3. But it's not like he's a sharp shooter). And then we have a 5 who plays solid D but is forgettable - at least right now - on offense. It could work really well. But it could also fall apart quickly.

    I don't know what to think about next year. I can tell you it'll be frustrating from 3 without a surefire 3pt threat (unless AOC gains 15 pounds, learns a little D, and continues working on his shot) and that defense will be a horror story early in the season, but that's about it.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Next year, the pieces don't fit as nicely as this year. This year, we had a true PG, two true wings, a perfect 4, and a college 5. And there were some issues. Next year, we have a true PG. We have 3 wings of various heights (come on down, Cam!), various weights (come on down, Zion!), and various motivation (come on down, RJ!) who likely all have some issues shooting the 3 (Cam is the best of the 3. But it's not like he's a sharp shooter). And then we have a 5 who plays solid D but is forgettable - at least right now - on offense. It could work really well. But it could also fall apart quickly.
    I actually donít think next yearís team blends less well than this yearís group.

    Williamson is not a wing. He is as quintessential a PF as you are going to get in the college game. Heck, I think he would even dominate at the 5 against all but a handful of 5s. Conversely, I would really rather not see him defending for long stretches on the perimeter. He is a a PF/smallball 5.

    I also think we have better (and more) ballhandlers, which might be the single most important (and certainly the most undersppreciated) skill in basketball. Last yearís team had 1.5 strong ballhandlers. I say 1.5 because neither Allen (lacking break-you-down ball skills) nor Duval (lacking good decisionmaking/judgement) were complete ballhandlers. Next year, we will have at least 2.5 (Barrett and Reddish with minor question marks). And our PF will have better ballhandling skills than our SF did this year. That will make a big difference as we should have way more guys capable of initiating offense.

    Plus, with Williamsonís ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isnít super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.

    We also didnít have a team whose pieces fit well together. All of our guys were better suited to be ball-dominant players, and werenít as good in scaled down roles. Next year, we know Bolden and Jones are comfortable in secondary/complementary roles, meaning Barrett/Reddish/Williamson can dominate possessions. And both Barrett and Williamson have shown great ability off the ball, which should play nicely with the passing skills of Jones and Reddish.

    But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach Kís wheelhouse.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I actually don’t think next year’s team blends less well than this year’s group.

    Williamson is not a wing. He is as quintessential a PF as you are going to get in the college game. Heck, I think he would even dominate at the 5 against all but a handful of 5s. Conversely, I would really rather not see him defending for long stretches on the perimeter. He is a a PF/smallball 5.

    I also think we have better (and more) ballhandlers, which might be the single most important (and certainly the most undersppreciated) skill in basketball. Last year’s team had 1.5 strong ballhandlers. I say 1.5 because neither Allen (lacking break-you-down ball skills) nor Duval (lacking good decisionmaking/judgement) were complete ballhandlers. Next year, we will have at least 2.5 (Barrett and Reddish with minor question marks). And our PF will have better ballhandling skills than our SF did this year. That will make a big difference as we should have way more guys capable of initiating offense.

    Plus, with Williamson’s ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isn’t super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.

    We also didn’t have a team whose pieces fit well together. All of our guys were better suited to be ball-dominant players, and weren’t as good in scaled down roles. Next year, we know Bolden and Jones are comfortable in secondary/complementary roles, meaning Barrett/Reddish/Williamson can dominate possessions. And both Barrett and Williamson have shown great ability off the ball, which should play nicely with the passing skills of Jones and Reddish.

    But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach K’s wheelhouse.
    99.9% agree with everything here. The 0.1% is just in there for uncertainty over how they actually fit in real life, rather than on paper.

    On paper, I think the ball handling and passing skills of the 4 freshmen are going to help this team's offense be more of a natural, flowing offense than we saw last year, which often became posting up Bagley or Carter and force feeding them. It wasn't pretty, but early in the season, it was effective. We ran in to trouble once teams started hard denying entry passes into the post, and defending the hell out of Bagley's left hand.

    This year, we won't be posting up very much. Bolden is the only guy who you would want posting up (his hook shot actually looked pretty decent last year), while Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are all guys who are at their best taking their man off the dribble, getting in the paint, and making a play for themselves or for a teammate.

    With the 4 freshmen, I think we actually have closer to 3.5 ball handlers than 2.5. As long as it's a big man matching up with Zion, I have no problem with him taking guys off the dribble from the perimeter.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    99.9% agree with everything here. The 0.1% is just in there for uncertainty over how they actually fit in real life, rather than on paper.

    On paper, I think the ball handling and passing skills of the 4 freshmen are going to help this team's offense be more of a natural, flowing offense than we saw last year, which often became posting up Bagley or Carter and force feeding them. It wasn't pretty, but early in the season, it was effective. We ran in to trouble once teams started hard denying entry passes into the post, and defending the hell out of Bagley's left hand.

    This year, we won't be posting up very much. Bolden is the only guy who you would want posting up (his hook shot actually looked pretty decent last year), while Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are all guys who are at their best taking their man off the dribble, getting in the paint, and making a play for themselves or for a teammate.

    With the 4 freshmen, I think we actually have closer to 3.5 ball handlers than 2.5. As long as it's a big man matching up with Zion, I have no problem with him taking guys off the dribble from the perimeter.
    Yeah, ditto for me on this. I left out Williamson on the "at minimum" list of ballhandlers, but with him I would definitely envision that quartet as more of a 3-3.5 on the purely subjective scale. I think we may have 2-3 guys who are more sure with the ball next year than our best ballhandler this year (Duval could certainly do more things with the dribble than the incoming guys, but he was also sloppier with the ball).

    Definitely intrigued as well by using Bolden as a pick and roll guy (he is a better screener than Bagley) and occasional post presence (his hook looked pretty decent, and in general he looked more poised in the second half of the year). But he is a really nice complementary piece for a team with multiple high-usage slashers.

    And definitely agree that you never know until they take the court. I just feel like next year's team is going to look and feel more like a typical Duke team than this year's team did. Even without having a bunch of knock-down shooters.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Plus, with Williamsonís ball skills, we should be able to spread teams out more than we could this year, even if 3pt shooting isnít super. Because we should have more guys able and willing to attack off the dribble, and with the athleticism to still draw defenses out of position.
    Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But more than anything, I think the team will be better suited to do what Coach K likes. We basically had to play with two post-oriented bigs at all times, and the staff never really figured out how to do that. Next year, we will go back to having 4 perimeter-oriented guys on the floor at all times, which should play back into Coach Kís wheelhouse.
    This I agree with, but I feel as though we're gonna be lamenting our 3 point shooting deficiencies a bunch next year as it has come to really define success the college game.
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?



    This I agree with, but I feel as though we're gonna be lamenting our 3 point shooting deficiencies a bunch next year as it has come to really define success the college game.
    Maybe put AOC on the floor and hope that Reddish can hit when wide open. Nice to have multiple shooters ala Nova but 1-2 may be enough with other guys that can spread the floor and drive.
    dukelifer

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Not trying to be snarky, but why would a team playing defense against a team that can't shoot threes be allowed to be spread out? Why not just pack it in and guard the mid-range and paint? How would an offense with our personnel attack a team that just packs it in?
    The defense wouldn't. The underlying assumption that Duke can't shoot threes needs to be wrong and I think probably is wrong. Or at least I'd be surprised if Coach K allows himself to have two consecutive teams that can't spread the court. He would deserve a lot of criticism were that to come to pass, especially if he remains inactive on the grad transfer market. Most likely, we're making too much of a Hoop Summit game in which both teams shot very poorly from three.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    The defense wouldn't. The underlying assumption that Duke can't shoot threes needs to be wrong and I think probably is wrong. Or at least I'd be surprised if Coach K allows himself to have two consecutive teams that can't spread the court. He would deserve a lot of criticism were that to come to pass, especially if he remains inactive on the grad transfer market. Most likely, we're making too much of a Hoop Summit game in which both teams shot very poorly from three.
    It may be worth noting that we had five guys who shot 37% or better from three-point range in 2017-18, and shot 37.2% as a team, good for 73rd best in the nation. So it's not like we were incompetent from three this season.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Agree that the pieces didn't fit well this past season. Not only did we have two centers (I believe Wendell was a center, even though he shot well from 3) which clogged the paint and didn't have the shooters to space the floor, but Duval was a guy who really needed to run all the time as he played best in transition. Instead we ran a half-court game and halfway through the season went the complete opposite direction by deliberately slowing down the pace. Grayson was not our most talented player, but as the lone senior was granted the authority to take all the big shots even if they were bad ones, the final play in regulation against Kansas being a prime example.

    It remains to be seen how well next year's team fits together. Shooting, rebounding, and leadership are my biggest concerns (not necessarily in that order).

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    Last year, on paper, was an absolutely amazing team. Senior AA candidate who could shoot and drive. #5 PG with length. #7 PF and #14 SG who were good friends and had chemistry coming in. And then you add the #1 player/PF. But you add Bagley late, team chemistry was already starting to form. Now it is time for readjustment. And the senior AA candidate whom was called on to lead wasn't sure if that meant he should lead or defer and when to do either. Who should have took those last shots against KU? I'm not sure last year's team knew, it seemed to vary, like their identity.

    There is no doubt next year, who has the ball at the end of the game, Barrett wants (needs?) that last shot. I think the four recruits coming in this year understand that Barrett is an alpha dog. I think they also understand that Jones is the leader and that they can trust him to make sure they are all integrated into the offense. Jones makes me think of Coach K and the stories of when he was younger and all the other kids would wait for him to organize their neighborhood games. I'm really looking forward to Jones's ability to manage the offense. Reddish and Williamson should flourish feeding off the above dynamics.

    If Bolden buys into his role next year, I think he has the chance to look really good. If he stays healthy and lets the action come to him, he could end up as first rounder. Who would have thought that possible? As the coaches say, each player is on their own journey and what a strange trip for Bolden.

    I think Javin has a huge role next year as a leader. A vocal, natural born leader who is a positive, hard working influence. I think he is the perfect guy to get the four freshman pointed in the right direction and to keep them on the right track as the season ebbs and flows.

  19. #99
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    Nov 2007
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    Vermont
    As some have clearly noted, I can't see why any team would not play a zone against Duke next year until we show we can hit the outside shots. Playing man to man vs this set of athletes, (with a PG like Jones) would seem to be pretty risky.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yeah, ditto for me on this. I left out Williamson on the "at minimum" list of ballhandlers, but with him I would definitely envision that quartet as more of a 3-3.5 on the purely subjective scale. I think we may have 2-3 guys who are more sure with the ball next year than our best ballhandler this year (Duval could certainly do more things with the dribble than the incoming guys, but he was also sloppier with the ball).

    Definitely intrigued as well by using Bolden as a pick and roll guy (he is a better screener than Bagley) and occasional post presence (his hook looked pretty decent, and in general he looked more poised in the second half of the year). But he is a really nice complementary piece for a team with multiple high-usage slashers.

    And definitely agree that you never know until they take the court. I just feel like next year's team is going to look and feel more like a typical Duke team than this year's team did. Even without having a bunch of knock-down shooters.
    It's pretty clear that most posters are leaving AOC out of their thinking as a valuable contributor next season. The kid is 6'5" and has a nice handle and shot. He was on the thin side this year but what I thought he most lacked is the confidence to go for the shot when he had the chance. AOC has as good a handle as most wings/SGs in the league, is explosive and shows signs of being a nice player. Like a lot of young kids thrown into a team with a bunch of stars, he tended to defer. He has a year of experience, which also has to make him more valuable. i expect he and Javin to be first and second off the bench depending on the circumstances.

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