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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I would add defensive rebounding. If we grab a defensive rebound between the 4:00 minute mark and 2:00 mark of the last UNC game, we might win that game. They basically dribbled out 2 minutes off the game clock in one possession because they got 3 offensive boards.
    You're right, but UNC was aided by the long rebounds occasioned by their "bricks."
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    You're right, but UNC was aided by the long rebounds occasioned by their "bricks."
    Fair point, though I would note that a number of those long offensive rebounds were 50/50 balls that they simply outfought us for.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    I have also noticed the offense getting stagnant because of a lot of dribbling and/or handing off the ball at the top, without much other movement. In these times, there are also very few assists. When we score out of this approach, it is usually because Gary Trent Jr drives into the lane and hits a fall away jumper or something. I just hate it when I see us settling into this "no offense" offense.

    Move the ball, move without the ball, try to make the defense at least adjust a little. It's a bit like the old-school "iso" offense that a lot of NBA teams used to run. When we run this type of "offense" we are truly not very good. On the other hand, when we run offense more like the Warriors, we are much more impressive.
    A plane takes off from Baltimore and touches down on Bourbon Street

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    Fair point, though I would note that a number of those long offensive rebounds were 50/50 balls that they simply outfought us for.
    Definitely true, though worth noting that in those late offensive rebounds, we were a bit unlucky. A couple of times we actually had 2 guys in position, but one of the two swatted it away from the other and to a UNC guy. That doesnít explain the other 15-16 examples, but it does help explain the costly ones in the closing minutes.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Definitely true, though worth noting that in those late offensive rebounds, we were a bit unlucky. A couple of times we actually had 2 guys in position, but one of the two swatted it away from the other and to a UNC guy. That doesnít explain the other 15-16 examples, but it does help explain the costly ones in the closing minutes.
    Exactly my observation as well....out hustled a bit, and a bit unlucky when we did hustle, and were in position.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    I think the Devils may be on the verge of defining the secret sauce...just not quite there yet.

    I think our best recipe, in general, is to extend the zone, and let Trevon have a good amount of the point guard duties on O. I also think Tre, and the whole team, plays better on offense when they are trapping and pressing out of the zone. What they found the last 17 minutes of the NC game in Durham seems to be that recipe. This depends on Trevon's ankle health of course.

    And there are times when a switch in D might be good - for example, I don't think we would want to extend the zone against Young and Oklahoma, if we play them.

    I also like some of Troublemaker's thoughts vis a vis the lob passes, and so on.
    I tend to share your perspective, particularly on the offense. I think we are at our best when Trevon is penetrating and either 1) dumping it off to a big 2) kicking it out to Allen, Trent or O'Connell or 3) finishing himself if help doesn't come. I think the tendency to force the ball into the low post and/or having both bigs clog the paint has been a big factor in our recent (though relative) offensive decline, as opponents have figured out how to defend that approach better, and our guards have struggled with entry passes and getting clean looks other than 3s.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Definitely true, though worth noting that in those late offensive rebounds, we were a bit unlucky. A couple of times we actually had 2 guys in position, but one of the two swatted it away from the other and to a UNC guy. That doesnít explain the other 15-16 examples, but it does help explain the costly ones in the closing minutes.
    Yeah, my comment was more on a whole game basis, rather than that late stretch.

  8. #28
    From Jason Gay's Wall Street Journal column today, "5. The Duke people in the office are quiet. I donít know exactly what that means. Theyíre just quiet. Iím not complaining."

    Yep, that about sums it up.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Correct side of the Durham/CH border
    Since there are thankfully no vigil threads, I wasnít sure where to look... has there been any update on Wendellís and Trevonís lower extremity health?
    "UNC makes me think of a pile of vomit in a school hallway. They keep trying to throw more and more of that peppermint neutralizer on it and act like it's candy, but the puke smell won't go away." -- (Internet-winning comment on N&O article re: UNX cheating scandal)

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    You're right, but UNC was aided by the long rebounds occasioned by their "bricks."
    That and an assist off one of their player's butt. Just their night. GoDuke!

  11. #31
    I think this team goes as deep as Tre takes it. When they are clicking on all five cylinders, they are 20 points better than anyone in the country.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by WVDUKEFAN View Post
    I think this team goes as deep as Tre takes it. When they are clicking on all five cylinders, they are 20 points better than anyone in the country.
    But the thing is, Trevon doesn't have to take the team to victory. He just needs to play under control on offense and out of control on defense. Just kidding about defense. I just like to see him creating havoc on defense. If he drives the lane when it's open and makes the shot or the pass that leads to a basket, then that's all we need from Trevon. He's the key to the game in my estimation. GoDuke!

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    This basketball season has been very interesting and filled with ups and downs. I think the common belief is that when you play a bunch of freshman you are going to have more inconsistency. We play a bunch of freshman. All season long the one thing that kept my head up after losses was the thought that we are young, very talented and that we could get it together and peak in March.

    It's March. What would you say is the state of the team? Are we where you thought we would be? Are we where we want to be?

    Just curious about your thoughts as we get ready to play the tournament. One thing I'm trying real hard to avoid is having too much recency bias after we played so badly in our last game (gift given).
    The reality is this team consists of a senior and the rest are nearly sophomores and have gotten a lot of experience over 30 games. The defense has improved with the zone and when we trap and press we are better, but with a shortage of perimeter players, how many minutes a game can we exert the kind of energy required to put that pressure on? While our zone is an improvement, UNC exploited it from the interior as our second big was not reacting quickly enough to help inside. Can that be improved before Thursday or more likely Saturday when we will face a more difficult opponent.

    Our offense was well covered in threads earlier. Our ball handlers and play makers, including our senior Grayson, has been guilty of carelessly turning the ball over trying to force the ball inside, through getting called for charges or just plain putting themselves in a position to throw the ball away. Trying to avoid the forced passes to the interior and running a more UVA type offense with double screens to our 3 point shooters (they have to move without the ball for that) sounds like a reasonable improvement. Lets see what they do about TO's in the Iona game.

    Why were we so flat in the first 3/4 of the UNC game? Hard not to notice UNC played harder and faster to the ball than we did. What will be needed to light a fire under our players? We have a lot of talent and potential but at some point they need convert that potential and to play smart and hard for 40 minutes. Our fate, if we are healthy, remains with us making good decisions and playing hard and possibly with a better game plan.

    Our end of game decision making also needs to improve. During the VT game, and again against UNC, decisions made were real head scratchers. I assume that coach K didn't want the ball thrown into a poor FT shooter against VT. Also, I find it difficult he thought the final attempt made by Grayson against UNC was the best choice. We need a coach on the floor (PG) that thinks the game and makes good decisions. Personnaly I think Gary is the best at thinking the game, but then he isn't the PG. Where is Jon Scheyer when we need him?

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Since there are thankfully no vigil threads, I wasnít sure where to look... has there been any update on Wendellís and Trevonís lower extremity health?
    I think the pre-game thread references/links some videos from practice that show them practicing.
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  15. #35
    Our end of game decision making also needs to improve. During the VT game, and again against UNC, decisions made were real head scratchers. I assume that coach K didn't want the ball thrown into a poor FT shooter against VT. Also, I find it difficult he thought the final attempt made by Grayson against UNC was the best choice. We need a coach on the floor (PG) that thinks the game and makes good decisions. Personnaly I think Gary is the best at thinking the game, but then he isn't the PG. Where is Jon Scheyer when we need him?
    This would be one of my main concerns (the other being the tendency to commit way too many turnovers). While hopefully it won't be a worry against Iona, closing out tight games is vital, and especially so in the tournament. Hopefully all of the learning has been done, and now comes the result of the players' basketball educations.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    turnovers. literally the only thing i'm not happy with.
    You can say this again (and again and again and again). Our defense has been the best in the country over the past 10 games. Our offense has been inconsistent over that same span mostly because of turnovers. If we can just make sure we get a shot on almost every possession, we will be in GREAT shape. So many of our turnovers have been unforced, too. If we are able to be just a little bit smarter with the ball, we will have the best offense in the country to go along with our recently elite defense. We can overcome a cold night from the field with our defense and offensive rebounding as long as we make sure we end every possession with a shot.
    Who needs a moral victory when you can have a real one?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I would add defensive rebounding. If we grab a defensive rebound between the 4:00 minute mark and 2:00 mark of the last UNC game, we might win that game. They basically dribbled out 2 minutes off the game clock in one possession because they got 3 offensive boards.
    I didn't for one reason:

    Say your any team scores X ppp in a normal halfcourt where they take a shot and don't get rebound

    offensive rebound just gives them another chance to hit X, which you might consider as equivalent to an offensive possession of OURs which resulted in 0 points.
    Turnover gives us a 0 on offense also, but the opponents chances of scoring are much much higher...Earlier in the year, duke was giving X+1 for every turnover. Teams were averaging one more point per possession that came off a turnover than off FGA.

    So anyway, I'm worried about the turnovers since they are far more negatively impactful than offensive boards.
    "I hate basketball."

    -uh_no

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Our end of game decision making also needs to improve. During the VT game, and again against UNC, decisions made were real head scratchers. I assume that coach K didn't want the ball thrown into a poor FT shooter against VT. Also, I find it difficult he thought the final attempt made by Grayson against UNC was the best choice. We need a coach on the floor (PG) that thinks the game and makes good decisions. Personnaly I think Gary is the best at thinking the game, but then he isn't the PG. Where is Jon Scheyer when we need him?
    The problem with Trent is that he isnít a great dribbler and isnít a passer at all. But youíre right: neither Duval nor Allen are great decisionmakers with the ball. If we have an Achilles heel, it is that. Well, that and (as we saw Friday) no depth behind Duval.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    This basketball season has been very interesting and filled with ups and downs. I think the common belief is that when you play a bunch of freshman you are going to have more inconsistency. We play a bunch of freshman. All season long the one thing that kept my head up after losses was the thought that we are young, very talented and that we could get it together and peak in March.

    It's March. What would you say is the state of the team? Are we where you thought we would be? Are we where we want to be?

    Just curious about your thoughts as we get ready to play the tournament. One thing I'm trying real hard to avoid is having too much recency bias after we played so badly in our last game (gift given).
    So I posted the questions earlier but didn't have time to answer them myself. At this point everything I'm thinking has probably already been said and probably better than I can say it. Here are a few of my thoughts:

    • I'm still pissed off as a wet cat about the loss to UNCheat last week. If Duval doesn't get hurt we win that game. Yes, I'm aware that he had a slow start but he's had quite a few slow starts and strong finishes. I wanted another crack at UVa.
    • Like others, I am happy that our defense has been playing so well. I really didn't think we could play a zone and succeed. Glad I was wrong and I hope we continue to play well.
    • I'm perplexed by our offensive struggles to a point. I say to a point because it could simply be that we aren't hitting enough 3's. Other than the obvious, which is turnovers. We need to play up to our talent level.
    • We still have 3 weeks in which to improve. I do like where we are right now. If we ignore the Cheater game (where we just didn't show up), we have been good and getting better for a few weeks. So I think we are good enough right now to survive this first weekend (as long as we play decent). The next two weekends, we need to get better each week to make a real run.
    • Having said that, I'll admit that we are not where I thought we'd be (which is why I say we need to continue to improve).
    • Moving Grayson to PG stabilized the offense for a while. Having a different type of PG, like Duval, to be able to hand the ball to and change things up is a great thing (think 2nd half of the 2nd Cheater game). We need Grayson to play a little better.
    • I still feel like we need to mix some of the offense we played when MBIII was out with what we can do with MBIII.
    • These first two games, I want to crush our opponents. We seem too good at giving back leads.
    • And last but not least, I hope our health is OK for the next couple of weeks.
    Last edited by elvis14; 03-13-2018 at 08:55 PM. Reason: whitespace edit

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    You can say this again (and again and again and again). Our defense has been the best in the country over the past 10 games. Our offense has been inconsistent over that same span mostly because of turnovers. If we can just make sure we get a shot on almost every possession, we will be in GREAT shape. So many of our turnovers have been unforced, too. If we are able to be just a little bit smarter with the ball, we will have the best offense in the country to go along with our recently elite defense. We can overcome a cold night from the field with our defense and offensive rebounding as long as we make sure we end every possession with a shot.
    I agree...mostly. I actually think we can still win if we have no more than 12 TO'S per game. Obviously, fewer is even better and improves our odds of winning but I think 12 is the magic # for TO's. Mind you, this is assuming we continue our elite defense and don't give up more than about 15 O boards per game.

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