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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC

    Can You Name This Player?

    A fun game while we wait for the games to start. Can you name this former Duke player? I've listed his career stats below, alongside Grayson Allen's which are remarkably similar. No Googling!


    Code:
                   Min  Pts  FG%  3PT% FT%  Reb Asst Stl Blk TO
    Player X       33.0 14.4 40.6 38.1 86.1 3.6 3.1  1.4 0.2 1.5
    Grayson Allen  27.6 14.1 43.4 38.3 83.4 3.2 3.0  1.0 0.1 1.7

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Scheyer?

  3. #3

    Easy!

    Jon Scheyer?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    A fun game while we wait for the games to start. Can you name this former Duke player? I've listed his career stats below, alongside Grayson Allen's which are remarkably similar. No Googling!


    Code:
                   Min  Pts  FG%  3PT% FT%  Reb Asst Stl Blk TO
    Player X       33.0 14.4 40.6 38.1 86.1 3.6 3.1  1.4 0.2 1.5
    Grayson Allen  27.6 14.1 43.4 38.3 83.4 3.2 3.0  1.0 0.1 1.7
    Interesting. The stats are skewed a bit by Allen averaging 9.2 minutes per game his freshman year. Scheyer averaged 33.7.

    Let's compare Scheyer's senior season (title year) with Allen's (hopefully title).

    Code:
                   Min  Pts  FG%  3PT% FT%  Reb Asst Stl Blk TO
    Jon Scheyer    36.8 18.2 39.3 38.3 87.8 3.6 4.9  1.6 0.3 1.6
    Grayson Allen  35.1 15.7 42.9 37.7 85.3 3.5 4.5  1.7 0.1 2.3
    Pretty comparable all the way until you get to the turnovers... (though Scheyer did score 3 more points per game)

    And man, I wish we had 2016 Allen. Beast mode.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Jeez, clearly I need to come up with harder questions. Nice work everyone. I've been thinking a lot lately about Grayson's career and where it will go down within Duke history. Some fans think we should consider raising his jersey. Others think he's been a disappointment. Using Scheyer as a frame of reference is kind of a neat way of looking at it. Nobody that I'm aware of has ever argued that Scheyer's jersey should be retired, yet his career numbers and accomplishments are very similar. They were also both similarly ranked out of high school (Allen RSCI #24, Scheyer #28)

    Here's a thought exercise. What if you changed the order of Grayson's seasons so that they went

    Freshman year
    Junior year
    Senior year
    Sophomore year

    In other words, what if his breakout sophomore year where he averaged 21.6 points and was a contender for National POY happened at the end of his career, and he had naturally trended upwards each season? And what if he won a National Title in his fourth year rather than his first? Would we look at him any differently? Part of me thinks that our expectations got thrown out of whack by how good he was that year.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Apropos of jerseys in rafters and whatnot...
    I think there is a non-insignificant proportion of Duke fans who don't think Grayson has been the best representative/ambassador for the program. Sure, he has shouldered an inordinate amount of pressure and criticism, but he has also invited a lot of it. I don't/wouldn't support his jersey being retired, and I know a lot of other Blue Devils who feel similarly.

    /Hey, look at that elephant in the room!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by wilson View Post
    Apropos of jerseys in rafters and whatnot...
    I think there is a non-insignificant proportion of Duke fans who don't think Grayson has been the best representative/ambassador for the program. Sure, he has shouldered an inordinate amount of pressure and criticism, but he has also invited a lot of it. I don't/wouldn't support his jersey being retired, and I know a lot of other Blue Devils who feel similarly.

    /Hey, look at that elephant in the room!
    I think this is a fair opinion to have. While I do think that his transgressions have been overanalyzed by the media (strange that Justise Winslow didn't get the media coverage for his two very similar incidents, for example), I think it is also fair to say that he hasn't helped his cause by repeating them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think this is a fair opinion to have. While I do think that his transgressions have been overanalyzed by the media (strange that Justise Winslow didn't get the media coverage for his two very similar incidents, for example), I think it is also fair to say that he hasn't helped his cause by repeating them.
    Bingo on the bolded part. Grayson has absolutely been overanalyzed, but he knew on Day 1 that such is the lot of any Duke player, and he has on multiple occasions failed to learn from his mistakes.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think this is a fair opinion to have. While I do think that his transgressions have been overanalyzed by the media (strange that Justise Winslow didn't get the media coverage for his two very similar incidents, for example), I think it is also fair to say that he hasn't helped his cause by repeating them.
    Grayson is arguably one of the most polarized players in terms of likability. Not only across the country, but also within the Duke community. I have a ton of Duke friends who love the guy and know quite a few who are counting the days until his graduation.

    And, for the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Did you like every classmate at Duke? Did you not like a few folks that you didn't know personally? To me, it's perfectly natural to have these feelings.

    I'm not sure where I stand. I like the dude and feel he got an unfair rep in college, but that rep wasn't unfounded (it was exacerbated by the media. That's an understatement). I do not put Grayson in the same "super likability" category as Cook, N Smith, Scheyer, Redick, etc, but I don't put him in the "OAD" category either (ie players who I couldn't have an emotional attachment to because they just weren't here long enough).
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Jeez, clearly I need to come up with harder questions.
    I probably had an unfair advantage, since i had recently looked at Jon's career stats and it stuck out to me that he only shot 40% over his career. That's what gave it away.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    So this comparison was to Jon Scheyer. If we're talking "jersey retirement," Scheyer doesn't have his retired. Neither does Nolan Smith. The last jersey to be retired was JJ Redick. Redick was pretty reviled by non-Duke fans, but not for tripping people. Plus, he was way better than Allen in his career.

    Allen doesn't deserve to have a jersey retired for a variety of reasons - including how good he was at Duke (you can't just throw out his freshman year because he didn't play much, nor his junior year because of his self-inflicted drama). Good, solid player. Wildly inconsistent at times. If we could hang jerseys just for a single season performance, his sophomore year would qualify.

  12. #12
    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that Grayson sacrificed literally millions of dollars when he returned to Duke instead of going pro. How many others have done that? Other than reasons stated above, his return and loyalty to Duke puts him in an unique category.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by devilseven View Post
    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that Grayson sacrificed literally millions of dollars when he returned to Duke instead of going pro. How many others have done that? Other than reasons stated above, his return and loyalty to Duke puts him in an unique category.
    At Duke? Plenty.

    Gerald Henderson, Kyle Singler, Shelden Williams, Josh McRoberts all come to mind.

    Had Grayson had as good a season or better than his sophomore year in his junior year, there is no doubt in my mind he would have left last year.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by devilseven View Post
    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that Grayson sacrificed literally millions of dollars when he returned to Duke instead of going pro. How many others have done that? Other than reasons stated above, his return and loyalty to Duke puts him in an unique category.
    Counterpoint: Grayson came back in hopes of rehabilitating his draft position, which was damaged by his non-basketball issues and a statistically underwhelming junior season.
    I don't think he should be given much credit for "loyalty" in this situation, especially for the purposes of jersey retirement.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    For me, the more I hear people be anti-Grayson because of "the incidents" the more he has my support. Someone asked me about the butt screen vs UNCheat today at lunch. I laughed out loud and said that I loved it and that I love this kid. Sorry guys, the media bias against this kid makes me support him more, not less. More than one of these "incidents" were cases where a F1 was called because a ref missed a call, looked at a replay and realized they wanted to call something and gave the kid an F1. Meanwhile other players are elbowing guys in the mouth with no call, no coverage, etc. I didn't think GA had done enough to have his number retired, then I read more criticism and I rethink that to "if we win again this year..."

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Quote Originally Posted by devilseven View Post
    I think one thing that is being overlooked is that Grayson sacrificed literally millions of dollars when he returned to Duke instead of going pro. How many others have done that? Other than reasons stated above, his return and loyalty to Duke puts him in an unique category.
    I believe Grayson was on track to retire his jersey until the huge shooting slump that he endured throughout most of the ACC schedule this year. I don't think his "loyalty" will change anything.

    If he had played the whole year like he played during games where Marvin Bagley was out (including the MSU game), he'd probably be a first team AA and this would be a done deal.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    At Duke? Plenty.

    Gerald Henderson, Kyle Singler, Shelden Williams, Josh McRoberts all come to mind.

    Had Grayson had as good a season or better than his sophomore year in his junior year, there is no doubt in my mind he would have left last year.
    Perhaps true. That said, I think his soph year was better than Kennard's, and Kennard left of course. I"ll give Grayson credit for coming back as a Jr. Ended up not being a great choice for him, or so it would appear now.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    Perhaps true. That said, I think his soph year was better than Kennard's, and Kennard left of course. I"ll give Grayson credit for coming back as a Jr. Ended up not being a great choice for him, or so it would appear now.
    Not sure why that ended up not being a great choice. He's loved his time at Duke, is about to win his second national championship and will soon be playing in the NBA

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    Perhaps true. That said, I think his soph year was better than Kennard's, and Kennard left of course. I"ll give Grayson credit for coming back as a Jr. Ended up not being a great choice for him, or so it would appear now.
    I agree with you. I'm really impressed that he came back to graduate.

    Grayson Allen may, unfortunately, become another data point for players who should have left early if getting drafted high and maximizing career $$$ is the goal (joining Kyle Singler and McBob). I don't want this to turn into another "but he got a college degree" thread, but it is worth mentioning.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wilson View Post
    Counterpoint: Grayson came back in hopes of rehabilitating his draft position, which was damaged by his non-basketball issues and a statistically underwhelming junior season.
    I don't think he should be given much credit for "loyalty" in this situation, especially for the purposes of jersey retirement.
    I have not and do not advocate jersey retirement. I am only saying that he should be given some respect instead of the holier than thou criticism of some Duke fans. Also, his monetary sacrifices were vastly more that the other players mentioned. He was in the conversation for national player of the year. Were any of the others?

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