MBB: Duke 82, Louisville 56 Post-Game Thread

[flyingdutchdevil]

After Jack that that first great game, I was thinking he should get more minutes but was afraid I was being infatuated with that one game. So I started watching him instead of the ball and I have really liked what I've seen. He plays hard. Because he only plays a few minutes, he can go hard the whole time he's in the game. He's quick and takes defense seriously. He is strong and a quick jumper which helps make him good rebounder. Of course it would be great to get more from him on offense but he does seem to take the shots he should take. He lets the game come to him on that end of the floor which is fine because we have so much scoring we don't need much from Jack (or Javin).

So many kids on this team that I really like, BTW. Wish we could keep a few of them around longer.

This. I love this about White. He's not the most athletic dude on the floor, but he tries really, really hard. There was a play yesterday where Jack tried to save the ball but it fell into the hands of a Louisville player. The ball was nearly over the line when Jack recovered. He sprinted down the court as fast as humanly possible. And it worked; the offense didn't do anything by the time Jack came back.

That hustle was a beautiful thing to see. Grayson, Javin, Bolden, and Jack have really led the way in "hustling". To me, this is something that is so important moving from a leadership point of view.

[jv001]

This. I love this about White. He's not the most athletic dude on the floor, but he tries really, really hard. There was a play yesterday where Jack tried to save the ball but it fell into the hands of a Louisville player. The ball was nearly over the line when Jack recovered. He sprinted down the court as fast as humanly possible. And it worked; the offense didn't do anything by the time Jack came back.

That hustle was a beautiful thing to see. Grayson, Javin, Bolden, and Jack have really led the way in "hustling". To me, this is something that is so important moving from a leadership point of view.

I agree 100% and I would add Trevon to that list now. I know he's not a great shooter but he's improved on defense and I'm sure playing zone has helped him. Back to hustling, I hope when/if Marvin returns, he buys into giving his best effort. Not just on offense, but on defense most of all. If he does, we can be the favorite to win the NCAAT. GoDuke!

[Ballboy1998]

This. I love this about White. He's not the most athletic dude on the floor, but he tries really, really hard. There was a play yesterday where Jack tried to save the ball but it fell into the hands of a Louisville player. The ball was nearly over the line when Jack recovered. He sprinted down the court as fast as humanly possible. And it worked; the offense didn't do anything by the time Jack came back.

That hustle was a beautiful thing to see. Grayson, Javin, Bolden, and Jack have really led the way in "hustling". To me, this is something that is so important moving from a leadership point of view.

Also, while it is cliche to talk about the international player being better at zone D than man-to-man, I think it is very clear that White has some of the best zone D instincts on the team. It is no coincidence that his increased minutes have coincided with the team’s increasing reliance on zone, though Bagley’s absence is likely the number one factor. White looked lost at times in man-to-man where his relative lack of quickness hurt him, but he moves great in the zone and is also a great rebounder.

I do find the sudden drop in O’Connell’s minutes after his first start to be odd. Perhaps he has a bit of the inverse issue and is still struggling with the zone relative to his teammates, or maybe it is something else we don’t have visibility into.

[Rich]

Grayson’s game has improved. One factor, I believe, is that his path to the rim isn’t so clogged because teams aren’t sagging on Bags and Carter. Since Bags has been out, not as much congestion.

Except that Bagley has been replaced mostly by Bolden and Delaurier, neither of whom spread the floor.

But Bolden and Delaurier are not the focus of the offense and don't command the ball the way that Bagley does. So how does K re-integrate Bagley into this lineup? In my mind that's the #1 question right now. With Bagley in the game we have better players, but it seems we have been a better team the last few games while he's been injured. The chemistry really seems to be there. We can obviously be an even better team with Bagley integrated, but I'm not sure how we get there.

I don't think running the offense through him posting up like we did before his injury is the answer even though our offensive rating was through the roof. I think our offense is more potent now because we're less predictable and seem to be using more of our weapons on the inside and outside. But does he just take the place of Delaurier and Bolden and be a screen setter and rebounder? That doesn't sound like the solution either.

[stedge]

One of you said you like so many kids on this team.

I think that is just it. We are becoming a team. Maybe still some fragility, still, but I think Grayson is doing his best work in that regard. To me, that could be his greatest achievement.

I am going to miss him. Good kid.

[jv001]

[QUOTE=Rich;1043937]But Bolden and Delaurier are not the focus of the offense and don't command the ball the way that Bagley does. So how does K re-integrate Bagley into this lineup? In my mind that's the #1 question right now. With Bagley in the game we have better players, but it seems we have been a better team the last few games while he's been injured. The chemistry really seems to be there. We can obviously be an even better team with Bagley integrated, but I'm not sure how we get there.

This^, our opponents began playing Marvin to his left, played him physical and doubled down on him. Marvin tried to dribble out of the double teams and used up time on the shot clock. The often led to a wild shot as the clock expired. When/if Marvin comes back, I would like to see him pass out of the double teams and keep the offense moving.
I think a pick and roll offense with Grayson, Marvin and Wendell would be deadly if ran properly. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Also, while it is cliche to talk about the international player being better at zone D than man-to-man, I think it is very clear that White has some of the best zone D instincts on the team. It is no coincidence that his increased minutes have coincided with the team’s increasing reliance on zone, though Bagley’s absence is likely the number one factor. White looked lost at times in man-to-man where his relative lack of quickness hurt him, but he moves great in the zone and is also a great rebounder.

I'm highly skeptical we are selecting our defensive scheme for the rest of the season based on the fact that a guy playing 12% of available minutes may have better "D instincts." We're playing more zone because K has determined the man is a lost cause. It has nothing to do with Jack and everything to do with this team as a whole being terrible at playing man D.

I do find the sudden drop in O’Connell’s minutes after his first start to be odd. Perhaps he has a bit of the inverse issue and is still struggling with the zone relative to his teammates, or maybe it is something else we don’t have visibility into.

O'connell's has been tied to Duval almost all year. Even early on, putting in o'connell early in games was the answer to Duval not coming out of the gate right. This is made abundantly clear with the UNC and GT games, where Duval was replaced by O'connell for large stretches of times, including when Duval was benched.

Duval starts playing better, O'connell sees his minutes go down. It's not a secret....It's no slight of O'connell, but when Duval is out there busting his butt like he can and has the past 3 games, O'connell will see his minutes limited. I expect 5 minutes to be his ceiling to get duval and grayson each 2-3 minutes of break a game.

[thedukelamere]

One of you said you like so many kids on this team.

I think that is just it. We are becoming a team. Maybe still some fragility, still, but I think Grayson is doing his best work in that regard. To me, that could be his greatest achievement.

I am going to miss him. Good kid.

I personally think that the switch to zone has allowed Grayson's energy and leadership to be more organically contagious... We've seen him play his heart out all year, and previously the team would respond in spurts but sometimes just go through the motions of being "pumped up." Then again, itt's tough to keep that tenacity going when you are being routinely carved up in the PNR.
It seems that, coupled with the switch to zone, the team's energy has transformed from individual effort to the type of swarming attack we've been waiting to see. Color me cautiously optimistic.

[Ballboy1998]

I'm highly skeptical we are selecting our defensive scheme for the rest of the season based on the fact that a guy playing 12% of available minutes may have better "D instincts." We're playing more zone because K has determined the man is a lost cause. It has nothing to do with Jack and everything to do with this team as a whole being terrible at playing man D.

Apologies on being unclear - my point is that the team’s decision to play more zone has created more opportunities for White to play. He is playing more minutes thanks in part to us playing more zone. I am certainly not suggesting the team is playing more zone because it is the D White excels at.

[CDu]

But Bolden and Delaurier are not the focus of the offense and don't command the ball the way that Bagley does. So how does K re-integrate Bagley into this lineup? In my mind that's the #1 question right now. With Bagley in the game we have better players, but it seems we have been a better team the last few games while he's been injured. The chemistry really seems to be there. We can obviously be an even better team with Bagley integrated, but I'm not sure how we get there.

I don't think running the offense through him posting up like we did before his injury is the answer even though our offensive rating was through the roof. I think our offense is more potent now because we're less predictable and seem to be using more of our weapons on the inside and outside. But does he just take the place of Delaurier and Bolden and be a screen setter and rebounder? That doesn't sound like the solution either.

I've seen in a couple of places folks saying that the defense is better without Bagley. I don't buy it. One, because I don't think DeLaurier and White are better at the forward spots in the 2-3 zone than Bagley. Two, because Bagley is still the best rebounder on the team, and second-best defensive rebounder behind Carter. And he's much less foul-prone than Bolden and especially DeLaurier. Yes, he is occasionally out of position in the zone. But so are White and DeLaurier. And when Bolden is in, that pushes Carter to a forward spot, where he is far less effective.

I think the discrepancy we are seeing is that Bagley's absence coincides exactly with the point in the season that the team fully committed to zone. It's no secret that we seemed to be playing better in zone than man-to-man all season. And the defense had been playing better midseason with Bagley when we started playing more zone. Towards the end of the road, we had the last gasps of trying to be a man-to-man team, and the defense took steps backwards accordingly. Well, now we are playing exclusively zone.

I think the bigger reason that our defense has been better is that we are playing zone, which eliminates what we do worst: handle the high ball screens. The 2-3 zone largely eliminates that, and dribble penetration and handling of ball screens is what we struggled with.

So I think that when Bagley returns, we'll continue to be a very good defense. It remains to be seen, but I think that reducing the amount of time that Carter has to play forward and allow DeLaurier to play aggressively. And we get back an impact player like Bagley to the mix, which reduces our depth risk.

[Saratoga2]

I'm highly skeptical we are selecting our defensive scheme for the rest of the season based on the fact that a guy playing 12% of available minutes may have better "D instincts." We're playing more zone because K has determined the man is a lost cause. It has nothing to do with Jack and everything to do with this team as a whole being terrible at playing man D.



O'connell's has been tied to Duval almost all year. Even early on, putting in o'connell early in games was the answer to Duval not coming out of the gate right. This is made abundantly clear with the UNC and GT games, where Duval was replaced by O'connell for large stretches of times, including when Duval was benched.

Duval starts playing better, O'connell sees his minutes go down. It's not a secret...It's no slight of O'connell, but when Duval is out there busting his butt like he can and has the past 3 games, O'connell will see his minutes limited. I expect 5 minutes to be his ceiling to get duval and grayson each 2-3 minutes of break a game.

I don't see O'Connell's reduction in minutes as a slight on his performance, but rather as a recognition of Duval's improvement. O'Connell is still a lankly guard or small forward who is quick and fairly explosive but is still thin for the position. He is a good shooter but tends to defer too much(many freshmen do) and gets rid of the ball rather like a hot potato instead of trying to make a play. Much of his improvement will come when he gains strength and confidence in his ability which is surely there. Maybe he won't get a lot of play this year barring injury to others and will have to work hard to get his time next year but this kid is a valuable asset to the team now and going forward.

[Furniture]

The one where Grayson hugs Trevon like Quinn might've hugged Tyus, right?

Funny how a switch to a defensive scheme the players can execute, and all of a sudden Grayson's a great leader, and the players care; they play for 40 minutes; they play for each other and for Duke and not for their draft stock.

It's almost as if those intangible concerns weren't the problem all along.

Maybe they realize that if they ‘play’ for Duke they are ‘playing’ for their draft stock.

[CDu]

O'connell's has been tied to Duval almost all year. Even early on, putting in o'connell early in games was the answer to Duval not coming out of the gate right. This is made abundantly clear with the UNC and GT games, where Duval was replaced by O'connell for large stretches of times, including when Duval was benched.

Duval starts playing better, O'connell sees his minutes go down. It's not a secret...It's no slight of O'connell, but when Duval is out there busting his butt like he can and has the past 3 games, O'connell will see his minutes limited. I expect 5 minutes to be his ceiling to get duval and grayson each 2-3 minutes of break a game.

Yep, it does not really seem all that complicated. Duval and Allen are playing at a high level defensively now that we have committed to the zone, and because we are in the zone we don't need to go deeper at guard. And O'Connell is a guard. So if those two don't come out, we just don't need O'Connell on the floor.

[UrinalCake]

Piecing together what several others have said, the team has undergone several changes that all occurred right around the same time:

- Bagley got hurt
- we committed to the zone as our primary defense
- Allen moved to the point while Duval moved off the ball
- Allen regained his shooting touch
- Javin and Bolden got healthy
- Jack White has replaced Alex as the first guard/wing off the bench

On top of that you have the natural maturing of the freshmen as they continue to grow each game. So I don't think it's fair to say that removing Bagley is the only reason for our improved play since the UNC game. Lots of factors involved. I do think there will be an adjustment period when he comes back, but if we can get all of these pieces to fit together and add in a 20/10 guy then our ceiling is enormously high.

[CDu]

Piecing together what several others have said, the team has undergone several changes that all occurred right around the same time:

- Bagley got hurt
- we committed to the zone as our primary defense
- Allen moved to the point while Duval moved off the ball
- Javin and Bolden got healthy
- Jack White has replaced Alex as the first guard/wing off the bench

On top of that you have the natural maturing of the freshmen as they continue to grow each game. So I don't think it's fair to say that removing Bagley is the only reason for our improved play since the UNC game. Lots of factors involved. I do think there will be an adjustment period when he comes back, but if we can get all of these pieces to fit together then our ceiling is enormously high.

Minor quibble, but White hasn't replaced O'Connell as a guard/wing. Duval has. The Zone has allowed Duval to join Allen in the ironman club, which means we really don't need guards. So White has been playing exclusively as a forward in the 2-3 zone. Since Bagley is out, he is getting the minutes DeLaurier used to get backing up Bagley and Trent at forward.

Purely semantics, but I think it is an important distinction because there has been a recurring question as to why O'Connell isn't playing. O'Connell isn't playing because we haven't needed another guard since we went purely to the zone, while we HAVE needed an extra body on the back line of the zone with Bagley out.

Beyond that, I agree. I think the improvement in defense is purely coincidental to Bagley's injury, not a result of it.

[uh_no]

Apologies on being unclear - my point is that the team’s decision to play more zone has created more opportunities for White to play. He is playing more minutes thanks in part to us playing more zone. I am certainly not suggesting the team is playing more zone because it is the D White excels at.

Got it. Though I think in this case, it would have more to do with bagley being out. That said, i'm also not sure I agree his minutes have increased. Or more correctly, his current share of minutes has largely been the same since the first pitt game, which does NOT coincide with the dedication to zone. (the trend since then is an extra .1 minute per game, with a terrible R^2 of .01).

So yes, it has increased since the start of ACC play, but not since pitt.

[rsvman]

Grayson has such a quick release on the catch and shoot. It's like he receives the ball and puts it up all in one motion. Such a weapon that he can get off whenever he wants, and he hits a high percentages of them. I feel like he wasn't pulling the trigger like that when he was in the midst of his shooting slump. So happy to see him get out that slump while still doing all of the other things that he's been doing all along - leading the team, calling out plays, hustling on defense.

Just about everybody played great. Javin and White attacked the offensive boards relentlessly, they know that their defenders are helping off them and they cash in. Wendell looked Shelden-esque on the inside, he just controlled the paint. Gary was a little quiet and Duval made some playground-play type of mistakes, but as a whole the team performance was awesome.

Don't underestimate the importance of Gary's role in the new defense. He in an important part of why our defense is getting so much better. He just GETS it. He seems to always be in the right place at the right time.

[BandAlum83]

Piecing together what several others have said, the team has undergone several changes that all occurred right around the same time:

- Bagley got hurt
- we committed to the zone as our primary defense
- Allen moved to the point while Duval moved off the ball
- Allen regained his shooting touch
- Javin and Bolden got healthy
- Jack White has replaced Alex as the first guard/wing off the bench

On top of that you have the natural maturing of the freshmen as they continue to grow each game. So I don't think it's fair to say that removing Bagley is the only reason for our improved play since the UNC game. Lots of factors involved. I do think there will be an adjustment period when he comes back, but if we can get all of these pieces to fit together and add in a 20/10 guy then our ceiling is enormously high.

Defense drives offense. Turnovers, steals, blocked shots, run outs, fast breaks, etc. can all fuel an offense. I see that happening the past few games. Grayson re-emerging, hunting his shot, playing with joy and confidence is also apparent.

K will need all of his coaching chops to now re-integrate MBIII into the play. Has it become abundantly clear to Grayson that this is his team now? Previously, the play was driven through MBIII to the point that Grayson was looking deferential. Was that scheme, or because of all the items that have now changed (Grayson now at point, defense is now zone, healthy players). Or is it simply that Grayson has found his shot again?

Whatever "it" is, can Grayson keep it up when Bagley returns? We need this Grayson to make a serious run. Sophomore Grayson and even better emerging gives us 2 first team all-Americans and one second team (Carter) on the team. Can/will they co-exist to optimization?

The fourth game without Bagley has now made me worry even more about "reintegration." I would hate to see back sliding, but maybe zone and Grayson on point is the thing, and not that Grayson was forced to take the offensive reigns with MBIII out.

I think the roof has been raised and our ceiling is even higher than I thought a month ago. (Take that, MJ!!)

I do hope this post makes sense. It's a bit stream of consciousness.

[House G]

Also, while it is cliche to talk about the international player being better at zone D than man-to-man, I think it is very clear that White has some of the best zone D instincts on the team. It is no coincidence that his increased minutes have coincided with the team’s increasing reliance on zone, though Bagley’s absence is likely the number one factor. White looked lost at times in man-to-man where his relative lack of quickness hurt him, but he moves great in the zone and is also a great rebounder.

I do find the sudden drop in O’Connell’s minutes after his first start to be odd. Perhaps he has a bit of the inverse issue and is still struggling with the zone relative to his teammates, or maybe it is something else we don’t have visibility into.

I agree with this and would also like to recognize White’s contribution to our zone defense. He seems to understand positioning and boxing out. Last night, he had 5 boards in 15 minutes. He has beefed up since high school but appears to have pretty good hops to me. He’s comfortable mixing it up with bigger guys on both ends of the court. The interesting thing to me is that he appears to have a green light to shoot an open three which suggests he must have some range in practice. Maybe he just needs a couple to go down. Last year and earlier this year, I figured he either wasn’t very good or was a victim of the short bench. Now he seems to be gaining confidence with more PT. It will be interesting to see what his role will be when Bagley returns and we get into the tournament. I, for one, hope that White and DeLaurier continue to get significant minutes. Who knows, if K was willing to switch to zone, maybe he’s receptive to playing his bench more come tournament time.

[CDu]

It will be interesting to see what his role will be when Bagley returns and we get into the tournament. I, for one, hope that White and DeLaurier continue to get significant minutes. Who knows, if K was willing to switch to zone, maybe he’s receptive to playing his bench more come tournament time.

I suspect that when Bagley returns, White's minutes will go the way of O'Connell's minutes. The value of the zone is that it tends to slow the game down and reduces foul risk, so you don't have to go as deep into your bench. So if anything, the switch to zone would seem to play right into Coach K's preference for a shorter rotation. We've certainly seen it with O'Connell now that Duval and Allen are playing 38-40 minutes per competitive game. And I suspect we'll see the same with White once Bagley comes back.