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  1. #181
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Lots of examples posted about times when the board was tough on players or teams. Right now, that's not the problem. There's nothing wrong with reasonable criticism of a player or team. There's nothing wrong with frank discussions about shortcomings or the frustrations of having OAD players and a defense they can't play. Right now, it's not just being tough on the team, the tone between posters is just not good. Sometimes I'm reading a thread and it's like little kids in an argument where each feels like they have to get in the last word (and thus the argument goes on too long and gets unreasonable). If you want an example, go read the 'discussion' of the Kyrie trade in the NBA thread.

    Of course people being too hard on the team or players is often the root cause of the issue but somewhere along the lines someone has to be the bigger person and just let it go!
    Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

    Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I don't even know how long I've been reading and posting on DBR (around 20 years now) but in regards to the bolded section above: Mtn.Devil is right. I don't know if it's just a sign of the times but DBR is not super friendly right now. It's still my favorite place to talk Duke hoops but I haven't looked around for a long time. I joined a few Facebook pages that discuss the team and they are downright awful and full of idiots. The discourse here on DBR is not as polite as it used to be and I swear if I see one more condescending post where someone claims an opinion is false because they don't have some obscure stat to back it up...

    One thing to always remember, that I think gets forgotten around here: if you must attack, attack the subject being posted, not the poster.
    Of course, don't come on here and expect to get instant respect. It's earned here just like everywhere else. That's just life.
    Listen to Herm Edwards and "Don't hit send". I can't count how many replies I've typed and then just dumped.

    Hope everyone has a great day.
    Rule #1: Remember the Board is a conversation -- you WANT the other person to respond. Strong opinions are OK but, best administered with a light touch.

    No, I do not always follow rule #1, but I should.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

    Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.
    At least it will largely disappear by mid-April, only to ramp up again by late November

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Agreed. Although I would note that this is a cultural trend generally, not just on this board. Our level of discourse on most matters has degraded significantly over recent times, and tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. Everyone can pick their own reason for it; I say it is the Balkinization of news and opinions that inhibit civil cross-view debate.

    Anyone who disagrees with me, of course, is a wanker.
    I'm not sure that tolerance for dissenting opinions has frayed. I suspect people have always disliked dissenting opinions. It's just that we now have a lot more access to dissenting opinions via the proliferation of social media.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    It may just be my eye test playing tricks on me, because I haven't done an empirical analysis of game flow, but there seems to be a very prevalent in-game trend for this team this season (roughly):
    First third: Play well, move the ball, build a comfortable double-digit lead, look the part of the more talented team on the court
    Second Third: Go away from what built the lead (start taking more long jumpers or run stagnant post-up plays), play more individual ball, more zero- or one-pass possessions, stale offense negatively impacts defense--lose the double digit lead, go down comfortably by high single- or double-digits
    Last Third: Use the talent surplus and intensity (or whatever) to get a few stops and run efficient offense to catch up, frequently taking a small lead or closing to a one or two possession deficit...either win a close game or lose a close game.

    End scene. Cue the reaction.
    Sounds like a more talented team that follows the game plan to build up a lead and has trouble adjusting to the other team's reaction during the flow of the game.

    We have great players, but everyone in the ACC has top level D1 players and coaches who will make adjustments. It becomes frustrating to watch at times, but this is who we are. We are learning to make adjustments on the fly. I just hope we get to where we need to be by the end of the season.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Lar77 View Post
    Sounds like a more talented team that follows the game plan to build up a lead and has trouble adjusting to the other team's reaction during the flow of the game.

    We have great players, but everyone in the ACC has top level D1 players and coaches who will make adjustments. It becomes frustrating to watch at times, but this is who we are. We are learning to make adjustments on the fly. I just hope we get to where we need to be by the end of the season.
    To me the pattern looked similar but there were significant differences in our personnel. We got the lead with a superior offense and a stingy defense. Grayson led the show and we were missing MBIII. Gary was quiet at first but came on stronly as the half wore on.

    I thought we slowed appreciably when Trevon came in during the first half. In the second half we got into the forced passes to the post and sort of a haphazard offense with a lot less ball movement and drives into the crowded basket area all too often. Bad offense led to easy scores by GT. I didn't feel we ever righted the ship but with a big lead, we were able to use FT shooting to keep a safe lead.

    My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively. Both are talented but together they don't enhance the other's game. I would bet the coaches also see that and are trying to get the guys to work better together. We need Trevon to win, so I feel it is critical to get them to optimize their playing relationship.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by duketaylor View Post
    at least it will largely disappear by mid-april, only to ramp up again by late april
    fify

    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    To me the pattern looked similar but there were significant differences in our personnel. We got the lead with a superior offense and a stingy defense. Grayson led the show and we were missing MBIII. Gary was quiet at first but came on stronly as the half wore on.

    I thought we slowed appreciably when Trevon came in during the first half. In the second half we got into the forced passes to the post and sort of a haphazard offense with a lot less ball movement and drives into the crowded basket area all too often. Bad offense led to easy scores by GT. I didn't feel we ever righted the ship but with a big lead, we were able to use FT shooting to keep a safe lead.

    My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively. Both are talented but together they don't enhance the other's game. I would bet the coaches also see that and are trying to get the guys to work better together. We need Trevon to win, so I feel it is critical to get them to optimize their playing relationship.
    I agree on Grayson and Trevon playing together. The duo worked well together in the Michigan State game, with Grayson giving Duval credit for his good game. Marvin being out for most of the game kept the lane cleared out for both to drive and kick. Michigan State has a good defense, so, it didn't happen against the Lexington YMCA team. You are also correct about forcing passes into the post. We have turned the ball over too many times trying to throw the ball into a well covered big guy. GoDuke!

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Lance Thomas improved as much as anyone in his career. His senior year he was the best defender on the team and he could guard the 1-4 positions very well. He even began to hit a few mid-range jumpers. As for Zoubs, he was tremendous the last part of that season. He blocked shots and was great at offensive rebounding. If memory serves me correctly, he was really good at getting the offensive board and kicking it out for 3s. Now remember, this is all from this old memory bank, which ain't what it used to be. GoDuke!
    Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    My takeaway is that Grayson and Trevon together, haven't learned how to run the team effectively.
    Tech's 15-2 run was fueled by two missed Duke layups, a missed five-footer, two missed jumpers by Gary, and two turnovers by our one of our big men attempting to pass to the other. Hard to pin any of those mishaps on Grayson and Trevon not being able to run the team effectively.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    I agree on Grayson and Trevon playing together. The duo worked well together in the Michigan State game, with Grayson giving Duval credit for his good game. Marvin being out for most of the game kept the lane cleared out for both to drive and kick. Michigan State has a good defense, so, it didn't happen against the Lexington YMCA team. You are also correct about forcing passes into the post. We have turned the ball over too many times trying to throw the ball into a well covered big guy. GoDuke!
    I remember the post game interview well...the floor reporter asked Grayson "what was working for you tonight?" - and he quickly said "Trayvon...Travyon is what was working for me tonight." I thought that was a great answer, and an accurate one.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Well, yes. That and sporks.

    Look, you seem to be a big fan and that's great. So is everyone else on here. But I will admit that I do look askance at anyone who comes in and immediately starts making waves.

    .
    Making waves?????? Sheesh. I was trying to calm the waves...bitching was someone else's word, not mine, my contention was that there wasn't much of that happening. And you say I was making waves???

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.
    7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. And given he cleaned that up in the second half of the season, it must have been even worse for the first half. I can't find game stats quickly, so I didn't do the calculation.

    Part of playing well is staying on the floor, and Z didn't do that until the last 15 or so games of his career. No argument that his minutes on the floor were productive, though...there just weren't enough of them.
    "I hate basketball."

    -uh_no

    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  13. #193
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. .
    How about 8.23 per 40 minutes?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    7.4 fouls per 40 is a really bad number...like among the worst in the country bad. And given he cleaned that up in the second half of the season, it must have been even worse for the first half. I can't find game stats quickly, so I didn't do the calculation.
    Yeah, but that's not why people were criticizing him for the first 60% of the 2009-10 season. A lot of people around here were saying he didn't belong on the floor at all. It was unjust criticism, often said in an unkind way. My point is it's not a new phenomenon.

  15. #195
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Yah, that was my point. Despite the fact that both Lance and Z played well, really all season, on this board they were skewered on a regular basis.
    There have been a lot of comments like this recently referencing negative fan reactions to various past years, and here is the problem I see with it.

    In a given year, some posters will criticize player x, some will criticize player y, some will criticize player z, some will criticize 2 of the 3, some all 3, and some the whole team.

    The problem with these "what people were saying then" posts is that in hindsight all of these criticisms get grouped together so it seems like the criticism of any one given player is magnified more than it actually was (any discussion criticizing any one player is now recalled as part of the general criticism of all those players). I think comparing someone criticizing (or, to use less inflammatory language, pointing out real flaws in) a player now with that amalgamation of player criticism from years gone by lacks context, accuracy, and usefulness. A possible exception if it was similar criticism by the same poster, but even then I'm not sure I see it.

    Invoking criticism of Jon Scheyer by one person (or many people) to respond to a completely separate person's criticism of Trevon Duval just doesn't hold water to me and I'm not sure why others feel the need to do it constantly in these discussions.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    Making waves?????? Sheesh. I was trying to calm the waves...bitching was someone else's word, not mine, my contention was that there wasn't much of that happening. And you say I was making waves???
    Have fun! Go Duke!

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