Beware of geeks bearing GIFs (Thread for Play Analysis, Highlights, Fun, etc)

[thedukelamere]

I apologize for posting a non-analytical comment on a purely analytical thread, but I think getting to the bottom of the non X and O aspect of the team may have answers...

Woah woah woah, non-analytical comments are definitely allowed, otherwise Troublemaker would have shown me the door already. I come here for the amazing analytics backed by peanut-buttery GIF goodness, but I personally operate at end of the thread title, somewhere between the "Fun" and the "etc."

Case in point; how fun is this?

[CDu]

I would have to re-watch the State game (something I am loathe to do), but I got the sense that we more actively funneled players away from ball screens in that one. I think that's the right thought, as our bigs have not shown the ability to handle guards on high ball hedges or switches. The problem in the State game appeared to be that the big didn't seem to play along. Well, this was true at least in several instances when said big was Wendell Carter.

My sense is that a lot of this stems from Carter not knowing what he is doing defensively. When he's near the basket, he's fairly effective at rebounding and blocking shots. But he just doesn't seem at all facile when it comes to high ball screens. And that's understandable for a frosh. My guess is that this is because he wasn't really asked to defend too far from the rim in high school. That, and he was so dominant on the other end that it didn't matter if he occasionally gave up open looks to less talented players on the perimeter. But now that the quality of competition is much higher on both ends of the floor, not to mention that teams are much better at scouting and identifying opponents' weaknesses, his lack of awareness is getting exploited.

I get the sense that having Carter drop down will help him and at least mitigate the damage. It will allow him to play where he is most comfortable (near the basket). It's not ideal (for the reasons Troublemaker has laid out), but I think it's better than seeing our defense get spread out more.

And I don't mean to single out Carter, as he's not alone. Our rotations aside from the big involved in the screen have also not been great. Seems like guys are often too eager to help or don't help at all. That just compounds the problem of struggling with the ball screen. At least dropping down on the screen will allow others to stay home more often. I like the idea of pull-up jumpers a lot more than I like giving up layups or uncontested corner 3s.

[Kedsy]

Are there any lessons from the 2015 team on how a team puts it together? I recall back in 2015 we looked lost as well after a couple bad losses, but our defense never disappointed to this extent.

Well, I'm not sure I have lessons for the team, but possibly I can supply some lessons for us fans. Here are some quotes from the post-game thread after we lost our second ACC game in 2015:

Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

Many areas to work on but at this point, it's gotta start with Heart and a sense of pride for the letters on the uni. Tonight was just...putrid

K, maybe it's time to back off on defense, not really working.

This D just doesn't work against good guards. On the other hand, having folks standing four feet away from a three point shooter, daring them to hit the three, doesn't work either.

This has been an issue for several years, but I cannot understand why it is so difficult for us to defend a high screen... We weren't able to do anything to make offense difficult for Miami.

Don't we have someone playing in the paint who should be able to stop the guard penetration? I thought that was the knock on last year's team. So what's the excuse for this team?

You can't hope to score more than the opponent when giving up 90!!!!!! We still can't stop good fast guards. Hey coach k - better figure this SAME FREAKIN PROBLEM out. Same thing every year for last few years... Fine until we hit two speedy guards then game over. Eastern Kentucky beat the crap out of Miami!!!!!!

we started the month with the "easy" part of the schedule. we lost 2 game in that stratch also. When was our last under .500 month? Cause we are.500 right now and don't really have a gimme game left (maybe Pitt?)

The potential for a lot worse to come is staring this team in the face.

[C]olor me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.

I have reset expectations.

I am rooting to make the dance. I honestly think that may not happen if we don't change something in the approach.

Definition of insanity, or, in this case, crashing seasons is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is going on four years now of that form of insanity.

If these guys dont change how the defend, its going to be a really long 2nd have to the year and short tourney...

#benchthewholeteamdressmanagers

They shouldn't be ranked.

The team that played the last 2 games shouldn't make the tourney.

[Kedsy]

Are there any lessons from the 2015 team on how a team puts it together?

Just for kicks, here's some more from that same post-game thread. Funny how at that time, Tyus wasn't the gold standard people make him out to be these days when offering scalding testimony about Trevon.

Four years of this on defense. We all know with the talent we have at the guard position we can't play this way. No changes have been made.

That was really, really, really, bad. Tyus and Justise may need to start Saturday's game on the bench to get a little perspective.

Tyus was lost trying to get around the high ball screen, and people were left open all over the place...

I really don't see how this years edition is much different than last year: A superior interior talent ( Okafor=Parker), and right now I'd take Hood over Winslow... Jones is not playing like a super frosh, just a good frosh. Cook and Suliamon are...Cook and Suliamon. The Defensive vulnerablities are similar.

Tyus Jones - sorry, but he definitely hasn't looked like a #1 rated high school PG lately. In four ACC games, he has shot 6-27 averaging 5.2 ppg/3.2 apg. That just isn't going to get it done in conference play.

My beef with Tyus is that I just don't see him as a PG in attack mode - he's just kinda out there. I don't know if that's a skill problem or just a confidence thing that doesn't allow him to play his game.

If we can't stop other teams on defense, we might as well throw out our best offensive firepower. Perhaps that means playing Rasheed/Quinn 33+ minutes and bringing Tyus off the bench for ~20 minutes.

The two point guard system just isn't working. We've talked a lot about changing our defensive scheme, but I don't know of any scheme that will let you defend with two small, slow guards.

Tyus is no better than Quinn on defense and has not performed well on offense either.

...let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah and Tyus.

This isn't just about defense. It's about Tyus being poor at everything these days.

My biggest problem is Tyus's play, he has been very sloppy with the basketball, hesitant in transition, and just not playing good on the ball defense.

...our offense was pretty weak with Justise, Matt and Tyus not doing much.

Referring to my statement that the three starting freshmen were playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K. My only support is the lack of enthusiasm and lack of emotion by these three players. I am not claiming that they haven't unpacked their bags, but rather that their major purpose for being at Duke is to get to the NBA. I guess they are "balling for dollars" (if you are old enough to get the reference), not balling for championships.

[mkirsh]

Just for kicks, here's some more from that same post-game thread. Funny how at that time, Tyus wasn't the gold standard people make him out to be these days when offering scalding testimony about Trevon.

Can't spork you but thanks for the perspective - very interesting

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just for kicks, here's some more from that same post-game thread. Funny how at that time, Tyus wasn't the gold standard people make him out to be these days when offering scalding testimony about Trevon.

I think I have to wait for one more loss before I start my vaunted 2015 optimism thread that somehow ended up gaining a LOT of momentum.

[brlftz]

Lol kedsy got us all nervously wondering what we posted back then

[heartofgold]

Perhaps we all are too down on the team as the consensus around here had gotten in 2015, but here's one quote I don't think we've ever seen:

"We're playing just horrible defense," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "We understand that and we're working on that."

And this...

"When you're playing teams and you're consistently giving up 80 and 90 points, you want to try to limit that," Duke guard Grayson Allen said. "That comes to our defense. We've got to get stops."

I hate these self evident statements. Reminds me of Bill Guthrie, who was asked at half time what is strategy for the second half was: score more points than the other team. The Duke player/coach comments right now don't evoke much confidence that there is a specific thing being worked on or a specific diagnosis. There is a real danger tonight, if we win, that we get overconfident by walking over a bad team. Our defense looked great against Evansville, giving up only 40 but next game at home to Florida State we gave up 93 points. The real test of whether we've made progress on defense unfortunately won't come until Notre Dame. Between now and then we've got Pitt, Wake Forest and Virginia. Given the NC State game, we should also not take for granted our offense. Virginia won't be a test of defense but certainly our offense.

[-jk]

Perhaps we all are too down on the team as the consensus around here had gotten in 2015, but here's one quote I don't think we've ever seen:

"We're playing just horrible defense," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "We understand that and we're working on that."

And this...

"When you're playing teams and you're consistently giving up 80 and 90 points, you want to try to limit that," Duke guard Grayson Allen said. "That comes to our defense. We've got to get stops."

I hate these self evident statements. Reminds me of Bill Guthrie, who was asked at half time what is strategy for the second half was: score more points than the other team. The Duke player/coach comments right now don't evoke much confidence that there is a specific thing being worked on or a specific diagnosis. There is a real danger tonight, if we win, that we get overconfident by walking over a bad team. Our defense looked great against Evansville, giving up only 40 but next game at home to Florida State we gave up 93 points. The real test of whether we've made progress on defense unfortunately won't come until Notre Dame. Between now and then we've got Pitt, Wake Forest and Virginia. Given the NC State game, we should also not take for granted our offense. Virginia won't be a test of defense but certainly our offense.

Think of it as a corollary to K's Cone of Silence. They never give anything away...

-jk

[dragoneye776]

Well we did it. Duke defended the pick and rolls with the drop coverage today against Pitt

[COYS]

Well we did it. Duke defended the pick and rolls with the drop coverage today against Pitt

Good catch. I noticed that we used drop coverage when Wendell was defending the pick and roll and most of the time when Marvin was defending it. We usually switched when our other forwards, Jack or Justin, were in the game . . . which makes sense because they are smaller, quicker, and are 3/4's rather than 4/5's like Marvin and Wendell. A lot of people pointed out that we allowed a lot of looks from three, but it also wasn't appreciably higher than in past games when we've pulled Wendell and Marvin higher. I'm with Troublemaker in thinking that, given how poor our defense has been, I'd much rather us give up pull-up threes to a guard off of a pick and roll than continue to have Marvin and (especially) Wendell get caught out on the perimeter behind the play. I would need to watch the game, but I thought we gave up a decent percentage of three point shots off of Pitts offensive rebounds. Given that our second best rebounder in Wendell only played 16 minutes (in which he picked up 7 boards), I'm not too concerned about this. This isn't to say that I think the D is fixed. Far from it. But if opponent three point shots come off the dribble around screens and from offensive rebounds (which would presumably happen a little less frequently when Wendell, Javin, and Marques are playing their usual minutes) rather than kick-outs to open shooters, I think we'll be better off.

I thought drop coverage would actually help Wendell with his foul issues, too. However, he still picked up fouls at a high rate last night, including one in which the guard drove on him while he was in drop coverage. I thought he had good position on that play, but he was a little over-eager and reached in for the foul. Seems like foul issues for Wendell are going to be a consistent occurrence.

[thedukelamere]

Pretty small sample size but, as discussed further up thread, pull up 3's against drop coverage tend to have lower percentages than catch and shoot corner 3's... Granted, it was a Pittiful night shooting for a team that isn't the greatest at it to begin with, but if we continue to utilize the drop I'm very interested to see how it affects our opponents' %s.

Also, if a change to drop coverage somehow becomes a cornerstone of our improved defense moving forward, I nominate this thread as the turning point. Thanks for surfing DBR, Coach!

[House G]

Agree with others that this is a fabulous thread. I found a site that explains a lot of the terminology when discussing various offenses and defenses. I apolgize if it’s been linked before. You can go to the defense section and learn more about drop coverage. I believe this site is about the NBA but I’m sure a lot of it applies to the college game.
https://medium.com/the-basketball-dictionary

[rsvman]

I noticed the drop coverage again in the game against Wake. I think it is definitely an improvement over what we had been doing.

[House G]

I noticed the drop coverage again in the game against Wake. I think it is definitely an improvement over what we had been doing.

I’m guessing this is not an example of what you’re referring to:

https://gfycat.com/ColossalUntriedBrahmancow

[thedukelamere]

Mood today:

[House G]

After watching the Miami game, I was interested in what is involved in feeding the post. With two great big men, this becomes an important part of our offense. Like many things in basketball, there is a lot more to it than I appreciated. As you might expect, a more experienced player like Allen is better at it than some of the freshmen. There are nuances that I never considered such as the angle of the pass, whether the passer is right- handed or can pass equally well with each hand, and so on. The position of the low post man is also important. In general, I don’t think you want to feed them too far from the basket. Is it better to position Bagley on the right since he is left-handed—or does it matter? Our low post game seems much more effective with two bigs down low because they have trouble double-teaming one of them. Here is an article and a video discussing some of this (and I apologize in advance for the quality of my videos )
https://otterbasketball.com/how-to-feed-the-post/
Here are some ill-advised post passes from the game:
https://gfycat.com/DopeyFlamboyantFunnelweaverspider
https://gfycat.com/PerfectOldLeech
https://gfycat.com/SmoggyIncompatibleBrant
And here’s how it’s done:
https://gfycat.com/AccomplishedIncom...eHypsilophodon
(Of course it’s easier when the guy guarding you is 5’5” lol).

[NYBri]

Well, I'm not sure I have lessons for the team, but possibly I can supply some lessons for us fans. Here are some quotes from the post-game thread after we lost our second ACC game in 2015:

I don’t know who was posting under my name in that thread, but they should be ashamed of themselves to be so negative.

[gus]

After watching the Miami game, I was interested in what is involved in feeding the post. With two great big men, this becomes an important part of our offense. Like many things in basketball, there is a lot more to it than I appreciated. As you might expect, a more experienced player like Allen is better at it than some of the freshmen. There are nuances that I never considered such as the angle of the pass, whether the passer is right- handed or can pass equally well with each hand, and so on. The position of the low post man is also important. In general, I don’t think you want to feed them too far from the basket. Is it better to position Bagley on the right since he is left-handed—or does it matter? Our low post game seems much more effective with two bigs down low because they have trouble double-teaming one of them. Here is an article and a video discussing some of this (and I apologize in advance for the quality of my videos )
https://otterbasketball.com/how-to-feed-the-post/
Here are some ill-advised post passes from the game:
https://gfycat.com/DopeyFlamboyantFunnelweaverspider
https://gfycat.com/PerfectOldLeech
https://gfycat.com/SmoggyIncompatibleBrant
And here’s how it’s done:
https://gfycat.com/AccomplishedIncom...eHypsilophodon
(Of course it’s easier when the guy guarding you is 5’5” lol).

"Dopey flamboyant funnel weaver spider" seems like a play with some potential, but by the time they finish calling it, the defense will have repositioned properly to prevent the lob.

[Truth&Justise]

After watching the Miami game, I was interested in what is involved in feeding the post. With two great big men, this becomes an important part of our offense. Like many things in basketball, there is a lot more to it than I appreciated. As you might expect, a more experienced player like Allen is better at it than some of the freshmen. There are nuances that I never considered such as the angle of the pass, whether the passer is right- handed or can pass equally well with each hand, and so on. The position of the low post man is also important. In general, I don’t think you want to feed them too far from the basket. Is it better to position Bagley on the right since he is left-handed—or does it matter? Our low post game seems much more effective with two bigs down low because they have trouble double-teaming one of them. Here is an article and a video discussing some of this (and I apologize in advance for the quality of my videos )
https://otterbasketball.com/how-to-feed-the-post/
Here are some ill-advised post passes from the game:
https://gfycat.com/DopeyFlamboyantFunnelweaverspider
https://gfycat.com/PerfectOldLeech
https://gfycat.com/SmoggyIncompatibleBrant
And here’s how it’s done:
https://gfycat.com/AccomplishedIncom...eHypsilophodon
(Of course it’s easier when the guy guarding you is 5’5” lol).

That second one -- the wonderfully named "Perfect Old Leech" -- was particularly frustrating because Wendell had such FANTASTIC positioning, with his man sealed under the basket. But coaches have long talked about how hard it is to feed the post from the wing. The easier play would have been to swing the ball to the corner, where Gary would have had a great angle to get it into the post.