Kyrie Irving Demands Trade: Gets traded to Celtics

[superdave]

only reason for all the hate outside this board is because lebron has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by the media as a god. He even has a reporter whose only job is follow him around 24/7 and report anything he does (Brian Wordhorst).

Kyrie hit the game winning shot in game 7 not lebron, ray allen hit the game tying shot in game 6 (lebron missed the previous attempt) but as long as lebron's team wins its only because of him. People forget how Lebron in the prime of his career failed to win against Mavs with a 35 year old Dirk and 40 year old Jason Kidd and how he simply quit against Orlando the season before he came to Miami. Lebron isn't the greatest player of all time (not even close) and especially now when shooting and 3 pointers are much more important. His defense has become average at best as seen this finals by KD driving past him multiple times with ease as well as launching 3's over him at will.

I fully support Kyrie's decision to get off Cavs now and demand a trade. It will be good for his career and I believe he can actually greatly improve all aspects of his game including passing and defense if he gets a great coach (Lue is just a yes man for LBJ and doesn't know anything about basketball strategy). The fact he is considering Spurs means he knows he will need to adapt his game. I think the real reason he wants to leave is because he can't stand lebron james and his arrogance. I am sure LBJ blames Kyrie for losing to the warriors. Even in Miami, LBJ had issues with Dwade and the two of them are best friends. LBJ is a jerk and only cares about himself and his legacy.

Cleveland sucks as a place to live. LBJ is a god there and everyone else is to blame if they ever lose. I'm sure LBJ will leave to ring chase after a year and can't wait to see all the dumb cavs fans burn his jersey again.

My problem with this is Kyrie should handle this more quietly. Part of this narrative in the media now is likely due to the Cavs leaking it to make Kyrie look bad. I really dont like Kyrie wanting to be the man; he should be more concerned about winning. He has not shown he can carry a 50+ win team. My other problem is that Kyrie should stick it out for another year and make one last title run. He seems to want to bail now because he has more leverage, which makes sense for him.

As others have said, his timing is bad. He missed his window pre-draft where big trades happen. So he is going to be in a locker room that knows he does not want to be there and knows Lebron didnt recruit free agents all summer because he's leaving in 2018. Going to be ugly.

[CDu]

I dunno, CDu. Who picks the All-Star teams? Kyrie has made it four of the last five years, missing only when he was hurt in 2015-2016, which was the year he won an NBA championship. Who was it that said: "Scoring is really important. Lots of people can play defense."

Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My problem with this is Kyrie should handle this more quietly. Part of this narrative in the media now is likely due to the Cavs leaking it to make Kyrie look bad.

How is it Kyrie's fault that he didn't handle it quietly if people seem to agree that Gilbert leaked this to make Irving look bad?

Cavs management is a poop-show that got lucky LeBron was determined to take a trophy home. I suspect the franchise is headed back into the basement for the foreseeable future.

[CDu]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

Well, at the risk of joining Indoor66 in possibly sounding smart-a...lecky, of course it will be different in 18 months. Some young players will improve and move up (or onto) the list. Some older players will hit their decline phase and fall down or off the list. Irving is just 25, so improvement is definitely still available to him. Guys like Towns, Davis, Porzingis, and Booker could join Irving on the rise (not to mention guys from more recent classes). Guyslike Gasol and Paul could fall down. But we are talking about rankings right now, so 18 months from now isn't going to tell us much about right now.

[dukebluesincebirth]

FWIW, Avery Bradley (considered one of the best young defenders in the NBA), was asked in a recent interview about which players were the hardest to defend. He said Kyrie, and said it wasn't even close. The dude is a phenomenal scorer who can't be stopped when he's at his best. He also showed clutch scoring ability with the dagger 3 in the Finals, bringing his squad the trophy. Clutch is something not every NBA scorer has proven. Let's give Mr. Irving (a Dukie don't forget) a little more love!

[ice-9]

Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

Well, as others have pointed out, this kind of thinking might be exactly why Kyrie wants out.

Is Harden a better offensive player than Kyrie? I don't think they're far apart, and a good argument can be made that individually Kyrie is more talented.

You use the LeBron-less Cavs as an argument for why Kyrie isn't that great -- but that's a team built specifically for LeBron, not for Kyrie.

Substitute Harden for Kyrie in the Rockets under D'Antoni and will we really be arguing about whether Kyrie is a top 10 offensive player? Or a top 25 overall player?

I specifically picked Harden as the example because he's a terrible defender too. And in the first few years of being the league he wasn't a great distributor either.

Anyway, we'll see.

[CDu]

Well, as others have pointed out, this kind of thinking might be exactly why Kyrie wants out.

Is Harden a better offensive player than Kyrie? I don't think they're far apart, and a good argument can be made that individually Kyrie is more talented.

You use the LeBron-less Cavs as an argument for why Kyrie isn't that great -- but that's a team built specifically for LeBron, not for Kyrie.

Substitute Harden for Kyrie in the Rockets under D'Antoni and will we really be arguing about whether Kyrie is a top 10 offensive player? Or a top 25 overall player?

I specifically picked Harden as the example because he's a terrible defender too. And in the first few years of being the league he wasn't a great PG either.

Anyway, we'll see.

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

[drummerdevil]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

However, James Harden is the focal point of defenses because he has no one else good on his team. Kyrie has LeBron on his team, and no matter how good you are, LeBron is the focal point of the defense. LeBron is the focal point over Kyrie like he would be over Harden, like he was over prime D Wade, who was arguably better than James Harden is now. Irving is arguably the better shooter, and arguably more difficult to guard. He has better handles and is a better, craftier finisher.

Either way, it's a difficult comparison to make. Kyrie is the second option on his team, whereas Harden is indisputably the best on his. Maybe next year, when Kyrie is leading a team, he will be MVP. Or maybe, he'll get traded and be part of, I don't know, the timberwolves or the spurs where he is again in elite company and won't get as many shots.

The best ways to make that comparison are:

If Kyrie is still on the cavs, next year's Kyrie vs next year's Harden

If Kyrie is leading a team, next year's Kyrie vs this year's Harden

If Kyrie is still on a team where he isn't the first option and Harden/Paul don't work out, causing harden to be his old ball-dominant self, this year's Kyrie vs Harden on the Thunder.

[CDu]

However, James Harden is the focal point of defenses because he has no one else good on his team. Kyrie has LeBron on his team, and no matter how good you are, LeBron is the focal point of the defense. LeBron is the focal point over Kyrie like he would be over Harden, like he was over prime D Wade, who was arguably better than James Harden is now. Irving is arguably the better shooter, and arguably more difficult to guard. He has better handles and is a better, craftier finisher.

Either way, it's a difficult comparison to make. Kyrie is the second option on his team, whereas Harden is indisputably the best on his. Maybe next year, when Kyrie is leading a team, he will be MVP. Or maybe, he'll get traded and be part of, I don't know, the timberwolves or the spurs where he is again in elite company and won't get as many shots.

The best ways to make that comparison are:

If Kyrie is still on the cavs, next year's Kyrie vs next year's Harden

If Kyrie is leading a team, next year's Kyrie vs this year's Harden

If Kyrie is still on a team where he isn't the first option and Harden/Paul don't work out, causing harden to be his old ball-dominant self, this year's Kyrie vs Harden on the Thunder.

I am pretty sure you missed the point of my "focal point" argument. It has nothing to do with who is better by itself.

Being the focal point of the defense makes it harder to score efficiently than being the #2 option. So for Harden to be more efficient than Irving despite Harden being the focal point while Irving was not further illustrates that Harden is the better offensive player. He had to face more defensive focus and STILL scored more efficiently than Irving.

[ice-9]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

I'm not ready to anoint Irving as top 10 either just yet but it's still worth pointing out that you're comparing Harden and a team built specifically for Harden with Kyrie and a team specifically built for LeBron.

[CDu]

I'm not ready to anoint Irving as top 10 either just yet but it's still worth pointing out (again) that you're comparing Harden and a team built specifically for Harden with Kyrie and a team specifically built for LeBron.

Irving and James play the same perimeter-based iso game. You want floor-spacers around them. So the Cavs are built for Irving just as much as they are built for James. And again, Irving benefits greatly from James taking away the defense's focus. I would say that way more than offsets any potential challenges introduced by the team potentially not being built around his strengths.

Also, Harden has pretty much always been the more efficient player. Not just the past two years.

This is all silly. Comparing Irving to the very best players in the game is setting him up for unnecessary criticism. The guy is better than at least 95% of NBA players and 99.9% of professional basketball players. That he isn't quite as good as the top 15 or so players at the moment isn't some sort of bad thing.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am pretty sure you missed the point of my "focal point" argument. It has nothing to do with who is better by itself.

Being the focal point of the defense makes it harder to score efficiently than being the #2 option. So for Harden to be more efficient than Irving despite Harden being the focal point while Irving was not further illustrates that Harden is the better offensive player. He had to face more defensive focus and STILL scored more efficiently than Irving.

Sure, but you are also neglecting that Irving is the second focus of the defense for the explicit reason that he is the second focus of the offense.

May or may not balance out. Perhaps we will see (in the next 18 months).

[drummerdevil]

I still have to think you can't make the Irving/Harden comparison. They don't play the same role. Look at Harden on the Thunder, with players better than him. And look at him now. We can't truly solve this debate until Kyrie can have his own team.

(Hey Kyrie! Come to the T'Wolves! You can shoot whenever you want!)

[Duke79UNLV77]

Kyrie vs. Draymond is not close; Draymond is much, much better. Defense matters.

To me, Kyrie is the most underrated and Draymond is the most overrated star in the NBA now. Offense also matters, and Draymond is a really, really bad scorer. Draymond never has to take any shot other than a wide open practice jumper, a dunk or layup, or a very occasional post move if someone 6'5" or smaller gets matched up on him. And yet he still shoots a very poor percentage from 2 and 3. I'd expect Curry to hit 75% or better if he could just take the 3s Draymond takes. Draymond is a great fit as a role player on the most talented team in basketball, but I think if you put him on a really bad team, he wouldn't help that much. Plus, stupid technicals and fouls aren't an excuse that some offer for Draymond's no-shows in big games; they are who he is.

Kyrie doesn't get enough credit for shooting much better percentages and having many fewer turnovers than almost all of the other elite guards. He doesn't have as many assists, but I don't think any point guard playing with LeBron would average 10 assists. I think his bad defense also has become a bit of a group think truism. When they won the title, he had the 3rd or 4th best defensive efficiency rating in the series. Sure, his defense has lapses over the course of an overlong regular season on a team that knows it's going to the Finals. In the Playoffs over the past 3 years, he has consistently clearly outplayed a bunch of point guards whom people claim are better than he is, with the one exception of this year's Finals, and he was still stellar in that. Plus, clutch is who Kyrie is.

All of that said, I think Kyrie would be wiser to play with LeBron as long as he can. He can create more of a legacy as LeBron's Robin than he can as Batman on a team that's not a true contender.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

Harden shot 44% from 2, 34.7% from 3, and averaged 5.7 turnovers per game. Kyrie shot 47.3%, 40.1% from 3, and averaged 2.5 turnovers. Harden's assists would take a big hit if he had LeBron on his team. Harden has the huge edge in free throws, but to me he gets a ridiculous number of favorable calls. I like Harden, but I don't really like watching him play that much because of how his flailing constantly gets rewarded, like a much, much higher level guard version of Hansblabla in college.

Plus, Harden's efficiency goes down significantly in the postseason, while Kyrie's goes up. Given the length and significance of the NBA season and postseason, postseason numbers should weigh more heavily in comparing players.

[Wander]

I still have to think you can't make the Irving/Harden comparison.

A Duke message board is probably the only place on the internet where you wouldn't find near unanimous agreement that Harden is better than Irving. I mean, Harden would probably have won MVP last year if we lived in a society that used a Base 8 number system.

The thing that's missing to me in the discussion of "he's trying to get ahead of Lebron leaving next year" is... just the fact that that's next year, not this year. That one year is not trivial. It's Kyrie's best chance to get another ring, especially if the Warriors have an injury or something. Those chances are rare.

[sagegrouse]

All of that said, I think Kyrie would be wiser to play with LeBron as long as he can. He can create more of a legacy as LeBron's Robin than he can as Batman on a team that's not a true contender.

I agree with your first two paragraphs. "Kyrie would be wiser" advice falls a little flat with me. Kyrie is a global basketball star, who has legendary offensive moves. He has all the money he needs, and he has a championship. Something is wrong for him in Cleveland -- maybe the future, maybe the past -- and he sincerely wants to be elsewhere. Whether it's new challenges or new teammates -- he's earned the right to decide his future.

[CDu]

I agree with your first two paragraphs. "Kyrie would be wiser" advice falls a little flat with me. Kyrie is a global basketball star, who has legendary offensive moves. He has all the money he needs, and he has a championship. Something is wrong for him in Cleveland -- maybe the future, maybe the past -- and he sincerely wants to be elsewhere. Whether it's new challenges or new teammates -- he's earned the right to decide his future.

Totally agree. While I think it is a bad career move for him, it is his choice to make. Well, technically, it is the Cavs choice. And if they move him, it likely won't be to a place he will want to go. But voicing his desire to leave is well within his right. Hopefully it works out for him.

[CDu]

Harden shot 44% from 2, 34.7% from 3, and averaged 5.7 turnovers per game. Kyrie shot 47.3%, 40.1% from 3, and averaged 2.5 turnovers. Harden's assists would take a big hit if he had LeBron on his team. Harden has the huge edge in free throws, but to me he gets a ridiculous number of favorable calls. I like Harden, but I don't really like watching him play that much because of how his flailing constantly gets rewarded, like a much, much higher level guard version of Hansblabla in college.

Plus, Harden's efficiency goes down significantly in the postseason, while Kyrie's goes up. Given the length and significance of the NBA season and postseason, postseason numbers should weigh more heavily in comparing players.

Harden's ability to draw fouls is a huge part of what makes him more valuable. Also, he shoots better than Irving on 2s, and takes a higher % of 3s. The two had virtually identical eFG% as a result, but Harden had the better TS%. Harden also averaged nearly double the assists. And he did all of this with much worse teammates than Irving (making it more difficult for him to score efficiently AND more difficult to get assists).

Harden was unequivocally the better offensive player.

No disagreement from me that Irving is more fun to watch. But Harden is better.

[SilkyJ]

I would put more stock in NBA performance last year than a semi-tryout for essentially an All-Star team in which the decisionmaker was his former coach. And in terms of NBA performance, yeah, all of those guys were better.

I wouldn't. The Cavs mailed it in last year and were .500 after the all-star break. They weren't even the 1 seed in the east despite being leaps and bounds better than everyone else.

They were coasting until the playoffs, and really until the finals when Kyrie averaged 30ppg and looked like the best scoring guard in the world. I thought he looked better than Steph in the finals.

You can prefer Wall of course, but for me the Team USA try-out is the only true head to heads comparison. I place a ton of emphasis on it, especially at the PG position. John Wall can't even make the team, but you think he's "easily ahead" of Irving? You're welcome to prefer the guy who lost the position battle, shoots 32% from 3, and has never won anything. I'll take the guy who won the position battle, is a way better shooter, averaged 30ppg in the finals, and was America's PG in the last olympics (I also own Kyrie's Team USA jersey, which contributes heavily to my personal agenda & bias )

To suggest that someone like Wall is "easily" ahead of Irving as if its some indisputable fact is nuts. Its easily disputable and lots of people agree with me: Irving started over Wall in most recent All-Star game

And even if you took those guys away (which as I said I wouldn't), I still count easily more than 10.

I could easily poke another 10 holes in your list

- Greek Freak and Towns have made 1 all-star team combined. Kyrie has 4
- Jimmy Butler isn't indisputably better than kyrie. Kyrie is a much better scorer.
- Deandre Jordan rebounds and dunks, but is not well rounded and is a liability on the FT line
- Blake Griffin used to be a top 5 player, but his legs don't work, he's lost some bounce, and hasn't made an all-start team in 2 years
- Paul Millsap! Another guy who couldn't make Team USA
- Love Marc Gasol, but don't think he's better

Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

Well, first you said "I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20." Now he's definitely top-25. I think the issue is that you're being so definitive that X is clearly better than Y and I don't think its all that clear. Top of the list is Lebron, Durant, Curry...then it gets murky. How do compare Deandre Jordan vs Kyrie vs Butler vs Cousins vs Draymond? Who should have won the MVP this year? Was Russ clearly ahead of Harden? Its all shades of gray in there.

For me, I think he's close to top 10, definitely top 15 b/c I think he's the best scoring guard in all of basketball. I think he's on par with Steph and was better than him in the finals. He's not a good 3 point shooter--he's an ELITE 3 point shooter and has been ever since he joined the league, which is rare. He's even won the 3 point contest. He is one of the best finishers at the rim in all of basketball with both hands. To watch him do what he did against Klay in the finals was incredible. Given his 3 point shooting I think he's even better than Harden or Westbrook as a scorer--Harden is a mediocre 35% 3 pt shooter and Russ is abysmal from 3, and neither guy was won squat. Harden is already known as a playoff choker and kyrie gets better on the big stage.

So yea, I think the best scoring guard in bball should probably be in the top 10. Some folks prefer Russ, some thought Harden should be MVP...and I think Kyrie is a better scorer than both of them. Different strokes for different folks, but I don't think its clear cut who goes where.