Kyrie Irving Demands Trade: Gets traded to Celtics

[FadedTackyShirt]

I said this on this forum before, a few years ago, that one thing the Cavs organization does well is smear players who have the gall to want to leave. Remember how they made Boozer out to be such a villain for refusing to take a contract that underpaid him by about 20 million dollars? Remember all the crap Lebron got? Remember how Irving wasn't a team player etc, etc, when they thought he would leave a few yeas ago? Don't get sucked into their drama.

Starts at the top with Dan Gilbert. LBJ's Heat intro was in extremely poor taste, but Gilbert's response was worse. He trashed the best pro athlete Cleveland has ever had and was very fortunate that LBJ returned.

'Dubs are extremely talented, but they also have a seamless organization from ownership to Bob Myers to Kerr to the players.

[Indoor66]

Starts at the top with Dan Gilbert. LBJ's Heat intro was in extremely poor taste, but Gilbert's response was worse. He trashed the best pro athlete Cleveland has ever had and was very fortunate that LBJ returned.

'Dubs are extremely talented, but they also have a seamless organization from ownership to Bob Myers to Kerr to the players.

Jim Brown is waving hello re best.

[LasVegas]

Cleveland sucks as a place to live. LBJ is a god there and everyone else is to blame if they ever lose. I'm sure LBJ will leave to ring chase after a year and can't wait to see all the dumb cavs fans burn his jersey again.

Have you ever lived there?

[budwom]

The Cavs thought seriously about trading Kyrie around draft time, so why shouldn't he tell them he wants to leave?

[SilkyJ]

Key part of this article -

Why should Irving commit to Cleveland when James himself won’t? Tying yourself to LeBron also means tying yourself to someone who wants to maximize his leverage and always have an escape plan ready at all times. Irving’s trade demand could be as much about on-court fit as it is about LeBron’s unparalleled control over the organization.

While I basically agree, the argument against the bolded part is that he has already committed himself, literally, to Cleveland by signing a large 5 year deal a few years ago.

The counter-argument to that, which Brian Windhorst made on PTI, is that Kyrie signed the contract before Lebron was there and without knowing that Lebron would be coming there.

He embraced Lebron for 3 years and gave everything he had to Cleveland in that time, including winning a championship. I'm fine if he wants a different look now.

I also think this goes overlooked: if Kyrie wants out, doesn't asking for a trade now actually HELP Cleveland, especially b/c he has 2 years left on his deal? If you're a fan base and you know a guy is going to leave, would you rather:

1) lose him in free agency like Utah did with Hayward
2) get 60 cents on the dollar like Indy did with Paul George b/c he has 1 year left
3) get 40 cents on the dollar as the Clippers did with CP3, b/c he was going to opt-out
4) get a ton of assets, or maybe 90-100 cents on the dollar, for Kyrie b/c he still has 2 years left?

While clearly option "5" -- stay in Cleveland -- is the best option, if he wants out then I would think asking for a trade with 2 years left gives Cleveland the best negotiating leverage in a trade.

Most everyone agrees that CP3 and Paul George did their team a little favor by alerting them that they were going to leave. Kyrie is doing the same thing but gives the organization a ton of leverage to find a fair trade.

Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league and its an arms race to catch the dubs. They should be able to get a ton of value in a trade with 2 years left on his deal.

[Neals384]

Irving is totally within his right to want to play elsewhere. It probably won't be a good career move for him, as LeBron covers up a lot of Irving's defenciencies (poor PG instincts, awful defense). But if Irving wants to be the BMOC on a team that isn't nearly as good as the Cavs, that is his prerogative.

Generally agree re. Kyrie's defense, but there was this:

[CDu]

Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league and its an arms race to catch the dubs. They should be able to get a ton of value in a trade with 2 years left on his deal.

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.

[CDu]

Generally agree re. Kyrie's defense, but there was this:

Yep. Irving's defense in those last three games of 2016 were solid. No doubt he has the physical tools to be a decent defender. He just has never shown even the slightest long-term commitment on that end.

[dudog84]

This sounds like Kyrie is just beating Lebron to the punch. Classic relationship breakup strategy: "you're going to break up with me down the road, so I'll just break up with you now."

For all the same reasons Lebron is probably gone from Cleveland after next year (disfunctional org, probably can't beat the dubs as currently constructed, already won a championship), Kyrie should want out.

Lebron is chasing championships and is willing to bounce around to do it. No reason Kyrie shouldn't as well.

A man without hand is not a man. (sorry, can never resist a chance for a Seinfeld reference)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887bIe0hXyc

And Indoor66 beat me to it. Jim Brown wants to talk to a lot of people who don't think sports existed before they were born.

[SilkyJ]

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

Reasonable minds can differ, but John Wall, Damian Lillard, and Mike Conley are all guys who couldn't make Team USA ahead of Kyrie. At some point they've ALL been cut or dropped out in favor of Kyrie. Kyrie was the starting PG in '14 & '16. And it wouldn't be crazy to take him over Paul at this stage in CP3s career (and I'm a big CP3 defender/fan).

Millsap is solid, but another guy who can't make Team USA. 37 year old Pau Gasol? Please.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A man without hand is not a man.

The Lannisters send their regards.

[DukeTrinity11]

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.

Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

[CDu]

Reasonable minds can differ, but John Wall, Damian Lillard, and Mike Conley are all guys who couldn't make Team USA ahead of Kyrie. At some point they've ALL been cut or dropped out in favor of Kyrie. Kyrie was the starting PG in '14 & '16. And it wouldn't be crazy to take him over Paul at this stage in CP3s career (and I'm a big CP3 defender/fan).

I would put more stock in NBA performance last year than a semi-tryout for essentially an All-Star team in which the decisionmaker was his former coach. And in terms of NBA performance, yeah, all of those guys were better.

And even if you took those guys away (which as I said I wouldn't), I still count easily more than 10.

37 year old Pau Gasol? Please.

No, I was referring to the other Gasol, who is one of the best two-way bigs in the NBA.

[CDu]

Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

No, Irving is not hetter than those guys. And absolutely no, he is not the third best scorer in the NBA. Durant, Westbrook, Harden, James, Curry, Davis, Thomas, Leonard, and Towns are better scorers. Irving is in a category with Lillard, Cousins, George, and Butler as a scorer. Very good at scoring, maybe even top-10. But no, not top-5 and definitely not top-3.

And I agree that offense should be weighted more than defense. Just not to the degree you do, apparently. Defense matters. It is why Thomas (a better scorer than Irving) also doesn't crack my top-10 as a player, and probably not top-20. There are just too many really good scorers who also play on the other end of the floor.

That isn't to say Irving isn't good. He is one of the top 20 or so players on the planet, and at 25 could move up as some guys age out. That is fantastic. But let's not get carried away here. Irving is a guy who has benefited greatly from playing alongside the best player in the world, which has taken defensive focus away from him. Not that he would be bad without James, but LeBron has a way of masking one's deficiencies.

[vick]

Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

Kyrie vs. Draymond is not close; Draymond is much, much better. Defense matters.

Look, I like Kyrie, but let's get real for a second. The Cavs were legitimately terrible with Kyrie and without Lebron-- -120 over 635 minutes (and in case anyone is wondering, that's more possessions of basketball than an entire ACC season, so not a small sample). There's just no evidence from actual performance that he's anywhere near a top-10 player in the league--even stats that do a poor job accounting for defense (win shares, PER, etc.) don't claim that. Once you account for defense, there's really no case at all.

[sagegrouse]

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.

I dunno, CDu. Who picks the All-Star teams? Kyrie has made it four of the last five years, missing only when he was hurt in 2015-2016, which was the year he won an NBA championship. Who was it that said: "Scoring is really important. Lots of people can play defense."

[DevilFalcon]

This just means Bron Bron is gone gone, again.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

[Indoor66]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

Not trying to be a smart a...leck, but all these conversations WILL be different in 18 months.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not trying to be a smart a...leck, but all these conversations WILL be different in 18 months.

Well, sure. But my point is that conversations like this, with some people saying he is a top five talent, top scorer, etc, and other saying he's not even close to that level - well, we will find out when/if he strikes out on his own.

I think it is a smart move for Kyrie. LBJ is going to leave a steaming mess in Cleveland when he leaves, and Irving doesn't want to deal with whatever the next process is with that repugnant ownership.

Additionally, I think the microscope that LeBron brings with him to any situation is exhausting. Every quote/Tweet/gesture is analyzed on ESPN for a week.

I haven't heard much negative discussion about this in regards to Kyrie. I think most folks understand him wanting to get the heck outta Dodge.