2017 NBA Summer Thread

[JasonEvans]

Rather than continue to pollute the NBA Finals thread, let's move the conversation about post-season trades and free agents to a new home... here.

Thanks

[JasonEvans]

Looks like the Cavs are more interested in Jimmy Butler.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=1-19682349

Makes perfect sense to me as Butler would seem more likely to stay in Cleveland than George. Also, Butler is under contract for 2 years while George is only locked in for 1 more season. That said, because George has made it clear he wants out of Indy, I would think a trade would be easier to facilitate with the Pacers.

All the talk is that Cleveland is trying to deal Love to someone who would send picks and younger players to Chicago. I wonder who the third team would be in these scenarios.

-Jason "I know one thing, i ain't Boston " Evans

[kAzE]

Makes perfect sense to me as Butler would seem more likely to stay in Cleveland than George. Also, Butler is under contract for 2 years while George is only locked in for 1 more season. That said, because George has made it clear he wants out of Indy, I would think a trade would be easier to facilitate with the Pacers.

All the talk is that Cleveland is trying to deal Love to someone who would send picks and younger players to Chicago. I wonder who the third team would be in these scenarios.

-Jason "I know one thing, i ain't Boston " Evans

Butler to Cleveland makes sense from a feasibility and mutual interest standpoint, but he doesn't fit in as seamlessly on offense as George or even Kevin Love in my opinion. However, the George to Cleveland story seems to have died down, so Butler is probably the best they can do at this point.

Defensively, Butler is obviously a massive, massive upgrade for them. The reason to do this deal is because of his defense. He can switch 1 through 3 and is tough as nails.
Just adding Butler turns Cleveland into a top 10- defensive squad.

That said, it will be an awkward fit on offense. Butler is another ball dominant perimeter scorer on a team with 2 extremely ball dominant stars, and he doesn't have the consistent shooting that you would want in a #3 scorer.

I think we would all agree that Butler would be 3rd in the pecking order on the Cavs, and it's also widely accepted that the 3rd scorer always gets the short end of a stick on these super teams. That is, unless your 3rd scorer is a lights out shooter who knows how to move without the ball, like Ray Allen or Klay Thompson. Chris Bosh had to work hard on his perimeter shot before he finally settled in comfortably into his role as the #3 guy in that Heat offense.

Butler is not a lights out shooter, and he doesn't have a ton of experience playing without the ball in his hands. However, he does by all accounts have a ridiculous work ethic, so if he does end up with the Cavs, I would bet on him improving that jumper.

It's an interesting move, and I think it does make the Cavs more competitive with the Warriors. I still think George is the better fit from a basketball standpoint, with his ability to play some power forward, and his more accurate shooting, but I guess that ship has sailed.

[CDu]

Butler to Cleveland makes sense from a feasibility and mutual interest standpoint, but he doesn't fit in as seamlessly on offense as George or even Kevin Love in my opinion. However, the George to Cleveland story seems to have died down, so Butler is probably the best they can do at this point.

Defensively, Butler is obviously a massive, massive upgrade for them. The reason to do this deal is because of his defense. He can switch 1 through 3 and is tough as nails.
Just adding Butler turns Cleveland into a top 10- defensive squad.

That said, it will be an awkward fit on offense. Butler is another ball dominant perimeter scorer on a team with 2 extremely ball dominant stars, and he doesn't have the consistent shooting that you would want in a #3 scorer.

I think we would all agree that Butler would be 3rd in the pecking order on the Cavs, and it's also widely accepted that the 3rd scorer always gets the short end of a stick on these super teams. That is, unless your 3rd scorer is a lights out shooter who knows how to move without the ball, like Ray Allen or Klay Thompson. Chris Bosh had to work hard on his perimeter shot before he finally settled in comfortably into his role as the #3 guy in that Heat offense.

Butler is not a lights out shooter, and he doesn't have a ton of experience playing without the ball in his hands. However, he does by all accounts have a ridiculous work ethic, so if he does end up with the Cavs, I would bet on him improving that jumper.

It's an interesting move, and I think it does make the Cavs more competitive with the Warriors. I still think George is the better fit from a basketball standpoint, with his ability to play some power forward, and his more accurate shooting, but I guess that ship has sailed.

A few things here:
1. I totally agree that Butler is less of a fit offensively on the floor with Irving and James than either Love or George. He's at his best with the ball in his hands, and is more of a scorer than a shooter. That said, he's also very good without the ball (especially on back-door alley-oops), and having facilitators like James is a nice plus. He's also a perfect guy to fill in the "LeBron" role when LeBron sits. No, he's not nearly as good as LeBron, but he can play the same position at an All-NBA level while LeBron sits, rather than having replacement-level play there.
2. He does in fact have a ton of experience without the ball in his hands, as the first several years of his career (with Rose at PG and then with Noah as "point center") he was an off-ball player. It's only in the last couple of years that he's expanded his role to be a ball-dominant player.
3. Defensively, he's a HUGE get for whoever gets him. You say "1 to 3" here, but he is more than capable of guarding PFs too, and he's not overwhelmed by most centers. He's 6'7", 220lb, and basically defensively similar to Iguodala in that he's a true Swiss army knife on defense. Plug and play almost wherever you want.

He's one of the absolute best two-way players in the league, and he is on a pretty darn cheap contract for two more years given what he can provide. He's the most valuable commodity that is potentially available this summer.

That being said, I don't think Cleveland is a match unless they can get really creative with a third team, or unless Paxson/Forman really blink. The Cavs don't have the assets to get Butler unless it involves Irving, and that isn't happening. Boston is the place that makes more sense from an assets perspective. They have the pile of high draft picks that would facilitate a rebuild for the Bulls.

[Troublemaker]

A few things here:
1. I totally agree that Butler is less of a fit offensively on the floor with Irving and James than either Love or George. He's at his best with the ball in his hands, and is more of a scorer than a shooter. That said, he's also very good without the ball (especially on back-door alley-oops), and having facilitators like James is a nice plus. He's also a perfect guy to fill in the "LeBron" role when LeBron sits. No, he's not nearly as good as LeBron, but he can play the same position at an All-NBA level while LeBron sits, rather than having replacement-level play there.
2. He does in fact have a ton of experience without the ball in his hands, as the first several years of his career (with Rose at PG and then with Noah as "point center") he was an off-ball player. It's only in the last couple of years that he's expanded his role to be a ball-dominant player.
3. Defensively, he's a HUGE get for whoever gets him. You say "1 to 3" here, but he is more than capable of guarding PFs too, and he's not overwhelmed by most centers. He's 6'7", 220lb, and basically defensively similar to Iguodala in that he's a true Swiss army knife on defense. Plug and play almost wherever you want.

He's one of the absolute best two-way players in the league, and he is on a pretty darn cheap contract for two more years given what he can provide. He's the most valuable commodity that is potentially available this summer.

That being said, I don't think Cleveland is a match unless they can get really creative with a third team, or unless Paxson/Forman really blink. The Cavs don't have the assets to get Butler unless it involves Irving, and that isn't happening. Boston is the place that makes more sense from an assets perspective. They have the pile of high draft picks that would facilitate a rebuild for the Bulls.

CDu, what do you think of Butler's chances of slowing down (not stopping) Durant? I mean, that's what this trade would be about, essentially.

Have you seen Butler and Durant matched up enough to make a determination either way? It'd be a small sample, of course, since different conferences.

[CDu]

CDu, what do you think of Butler's chances of slowing down (not stopping) Durant? I mean, that's what this trade would be about, essentially.

Have you seen Butler and Durant matched up enough to make a determination either way? It'd be a small sample, of course, since different conferences.

Butler is as capable as anyone against Durant. He isn't stopping Durant, of course. Nobody does that. But when not burdened with playing 40+ minutes AND carrying the offense, he is as good as it gets defensively against SG/SF/PF.

[JasonEvans]

Butler is as capable as anyone against Durant. He isn't stopping Durant, of course. Nobody does that. But when not burdened with playing 40+ minutes AND carrying the offense, he is as good as it gets defensively against SG/SF/PF.

Kawhi Leonard might take exception to that.

That said, Butler is a remarkable defender and would be a major upgrade to the Cavs D.

-Jason "I wonder, with a lot of young talent that has value, could the Spurs get involved in some of this Butler/George talk? I actually think the Spurs are a lot closer to the Warriors than folks realize" Evans

[CDu]

Kawhi Leonard might take exception to that.

That said, Butler is a remarkable defender and would be a major upgrade to the Cavs D.

-Jason "I wonder, with a lot of young talent that has value, could the Spurs get involved in some of this Butler/George talk? I actually think the Spurs are a lot closer to the Warriors than folks realize" Evans

Yeah, fair point. Leonard is probably better, especially against bigger guys. But after him, I would take Butler defensively over/even with anyone else in that category. He is that good and that versatile defensively.

If he was only a little better as a shooter, he would be darn near the type of perfect player. He isn't a bad shooter, but he definitely isn't a knock-down shooter.

As for the Spurs, I don't think they have the assets to make a trade for either guy.

[Troublemaker]

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 11m11 minutes ago
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

[pfrduke]

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 11m11 minutes ago
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

Since the Nets basically never have their first round pick again, this is the only way for them to get young talent. Eating Mozgov's salary for three years isn't a bad way to do it, and Russell seems like a worthy risk to take a flier on.

[drummerdevil]

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 11m11 minutes ago
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

[kshepinthehouse]

This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

Must mean the Lakers are taking Ball.

[Troublemaker]

This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

I think the Nets made a good trade. Russell is only 21 years old and could still blossom. Lopez is expiring and isn't part of the future for a rebuilding team like the Nets anyway. But I think you're right to criticize the Lakers.

Since the Nets basically never have their first round pick again, this is the only way for them to get young talent. Eating Mozgov's salary for three years isn't a bad way to do it, and Russell seems like a worthy risk to take a flier on.

Excellent point.

[JasonEvans]

So, is our consensus that Minnesota pretty much destroyed Chicago with the Butler trade? I'm beyond stunned that Chicago did not have better offers for Butler. I can't imagine that Boston couldn't have made a better offer than that (maybe the Celtics are truly enamored of Tatum... I dunno).

Anyway, I want opinions on where Minnesota will be in the West next season. How many games will they win and what will their seed be (assuming you think they will make the playoffs)? I don't think it is at all insane to believe that Butler, Bennett, and Towns constitute a three-man core that is as good as any in the league aside from Cleveland and Golden State (they have a big four).

Minnesota has gone from 100-1 to 50-1 to win the title (according to Bovada), the biggest move of any team since odds opened in the wake of the Warriors title. Other interesting movers in the wake of the draft and other off-season news:

Boston 16-1 to 12-1
Charlotte 125-1 to 300-1 (apparently, the bettors don't like Dwight)
Indiana 100-1 to 150-1 (Paul George probably gonna leave sooner rather than later)
Lakers 100-1 to 66-1 (George may be headed here)
New Orleans 50-1 to 100-1 (apparently, Vegas hates drafting Frank)
Orlando 100-1 to 500-1 (no idea why this moved)
Philly 100-1 to 66-1 (the Fultz effect)
Golden State 1-1 to 1-1.75 (you have to bet $175 to win $100)
Cleveland 4-1 to 3.5-1

-Jason "see all the Bovada and other odds here" Evans

[CDu]

I would say that Chicago destroyed itself in that trade. Gar Forman is one of the worst - if not THE worst GMs in the league. They regularly flub trades, always getting pennies on the dollar:

- traded Korver for a trade exception that they didn't use (so literally for nothing)
- traded Deng's expuring contract (at a time when he was still decent) for Andrew Bynum's nonguaranteed contract and a heavily protected pick, which seemed okay but...
- rather than using said pick in a trade over the years, they let it materialize into a late lottery pick, which they...
- packaged with their own mid-first round pick and essentially two 2nds to move up a few spots to take McDermott
- traded Gibson's expiring contract, PLUS McDermott, PLUS a second rounder for... Cameron Payne

Basically, aside from fleecing the Knicks every once in a while, the Bulls ALWAYS blow it on trades. Which explains why they don't make many: they always lose in trades. They are one of the least staffed, least tuned in organizations in basketball. Aside from Ivica Dukan (international scout), they simply don't have a capable guy in the front office.

So, yeah, Minnesota easily won that deal. I am quite sure that a real GM could get more for one of the top ten players in the game than a 23-year-old who was literally the worst shooter in the NBA last year, a talented kid who recently tore his ACL, and the chance to move up just 9 spots in a deep draft. They should have at least gotten a top-3 pick out of it. Frankly, the #3 pick (keeping their #16 pick), Smart, and Zeller's non-guaranteed contract would have been better, and surely something Boston would have considered.

Oh well, what more can you expect from a franchise that literally sold their 2nd round pick for cash?

As for Minnesota? Well, Butler just carried an AWFUL team to a .500 record last year. I think he will be able to get Minnesota into the playoffs next year. Even in the West. Butler with Towns is a good duo. They need more shooters (Rubio and Wiggins aren't that), but the two at the top are enough.

[Jay29]

Oh well, what more can you expect from a franchise that literally sold their 2nd round pick for cash?

Based on some of the other things you say in your post, you clearly know more about NBA wheeling and dealing than I do. But don't teams "sell" their 2nd round picks all the time, if they like their roster and could use the cash? You can't count on franchise-altering talent in the 2nd.

Not to say the Bulls' move you reference was a smart one at the time, but in a vacuum I don't think 2nd-for-cash is outrageously bad.

[CDu]

Based on some of the other things you say in your post, you clearly know more about NBA wheeling and dealing than I do. But don't teams "sell" their 2nd round picks all the time, if they like their roster and could use the cash? You can't count on franchise-altering talent in the 2nd.

Not to say the Bulls' move you reference was a smart one at the time, but in a vacuum I don't think 2nd-for-cash is outrageously bad.

I wouldn't say "all the time." But yes, it does happen some. But it usually happens with teams that like their roster. Not teams starting a rebuild (as the Bulls' President admitted after the trade). When you are starting a rebuild, you want more picks, not less.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

So, is our consensus that Minnesota pretty much destroyed Chicago with the Butler trade? I'm beyond stunned that Chicago did not have better offers for Butler. I can't imagine that Boston couldn't have made a better offer than that (maybe the Celtics are truly enamored of Tatum... I dunno).

Anyway, I want opinions on where Minnesota will be in the West next season. How many games will they win and what will their seed be (assuming you think they will make the playoffs)? I don't think it is at all insane to believe that Butler, Bennett, and Towns constitute a three-man core that is as good as any in the league aside from Cleveland and Golden State (they have a big four).

Minnesota has gone from 100-1 to 50-1 to win the title (according to Bovada), the biggest move of any team since odds opened in the wake of the Warriors title. Other interesting movers in the wake of the draft and other off-season news:

Boston 16-1 to 12-1
Charlotte 125-1 to 300-1 (apparently, the bettors don't like Dwight)
Indiana 100-1 to 150-1 (Paul George probably gonna leave sooner rather than later)
Lakers 100-1 to 66-1 (George may be headed here)
New Orleans 50-1 to 100-1 (apparently, Vegas hates drafting Frank)
Orlando 100-1 to 500-1 (no idea why this moved)
Philly 100-1 to 66-1 (the Fultz effect)
Golden State 1-1 to 1-1.75 (you have to bet $175 to win $100)
Cleveland 4-1 to 3.5-1

-Jason "see all the Bovada and other odds here" Evans

I assume you are referring to Butler, Wiggins and Towns? I think they want to forget about Bennett as quickly as possible up there! Or else maybe you meant Tyus Jones...

[JasonEvans]

I assume you are referring to Butler, Wiggins and Towns? I think they want to forget about Bennett as quickly as possible up there! Or else maybe you meant Tyus Jones...

Oh boy... of course I meant Wiggins. I got my double-consonant Cavs #1 picks who got traded for Love jumbled for a moment. Sorry.

Thanks.

[BD80]

Milos Teodosic of Serbia reportedly could be heading to the NBA, and is linked to the Jazz ...

According to Fran Fraschilla:

"Offensively, he's the best passer in the world, ... Now, he will not guard a chair, but he's a brilliant offensive player and an ultra-competitor."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/ut...on-the-market/