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Thread: 2017 NBA Finals

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    If only they never would have traded Love for Wiggins and not given Thompson that awful contract (still blows my mind). They would have a better wing defender who can switch on the wings which helps big time against GS. Saved a ton of money which in turn let's them sign better role players. O and they would still be set up for a good future after LeBron with Wiggins and Kyrie in their primes.
    I agree that at this stage they would be better off with Wiggins than Love but i'm not sure if he helps that much the first couple years. Wiggins is pretty bad at defense right now. He has all the tools to be a great defender but hasn't put it together yet. He also hasn't been very efficient on the offensive end yet either.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichabod Drain View Post
    I agree that at this stage they would be better off with Wiggins than Love but i'm not sure if he helps that much the first couple years. Wiggins is pretty bad at defense right now. He has all the tools to be a great defender but hasn't put it together yet. He also hasn't been very efficient on the offensive end yet either.
    But, what would Wiggins be if he was on a team with LeBron, a team where he could have the luxury of being the 3rd offensive option and where winning was the focus of the team's mental makeup? I am not criticizing Minnesota, merely pointing out that when you play for a team with legit championship aspirations, it changes the feel of the locker room at the attitude of the players. I bet Wiggins would be developing in different ways, acquiring different skills and tendencies on the court, than what happens in Minnesota where the team is built around him and there is little room for him to learn on the job.

    I have been one of the most vocal opponents of the Love-Wiggins trade. Though I think Love played considerably better in this Finals (and the rest of the season) than past ones in Cleveland, there is little question he has not lived up to the expectations that he would be one of the 20 best players in the NBA. I mean, is there anyone who thinks Love was better than the 7th best player in the finals? It is especially troubling that when Cleveland needed him most -- in game three, where the series was largely decided, and in game 5, when the Warriors closed it out -- Love was at his worst (7.5 ppg, 3-17 FGs, 1-10 3FGs). The brighter the stage, the dimmer his light shines. He's the anti-Kyrie in that regard.

    In the next couple months, Cleveland will deal Kevin Love, they almost have to. So, the bottom line to all this is simple... if Cleveland had the cap space to make a Love for Wiggins trade right now, does anyone think Minnesota would even begin to make that deal? They would laugh hysterically and slam down the phone.

    Here's a good question -- who could you trade for Love who makes a similar salary? Love makes $21.1 mil.

    Here are the players who make between $20 and $22.2 million... which of them could you trade for Love?

    Chandler Parsons, SF $22,116,750
    Bradley Beal, SG $22,116,750
    Anthony Davis, PF $22,116,750
    Derrick Rose, PG $21,323,252
    Marc Gasol, C $21,165,675
    Brook Lopez, C $21,165,675
    Kevin Love, PF $21,165,675
    Nicolas Batum, SG $20,869,566
    LaMarcus Aldridge, PF $20,575,005
    Blake Griffin, PF $20,140,839
    Paul Millsap, PF $20,072,033

    I think a trade for Parsons, Rose, and maybe Batum or Lopez would go through. The rest of these teams laugh at the notion of a straight up deal for Love, right? Says something about whether Love is really worth the money they are paying him.

    -Jason "and I haven't even gotten into the fact that Wiggins makes $15 mil less than Love, giving the Cavs room to make deals or bring in additional solid bench players" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichabod Drain View Post
    I agree that at this stage they would be better off with Wiggins than Love but i'm not sure if he helps that much the first couple years. Wiggins is pretty bad at defense right now. He has all the tools to be a great defender but hasn't put it together yet. He also hasn't been very efficient on the offensive end yet either.
    Indeed. Wiggins would become a decent player right when LeBron leaves for a different team because the Cavs never won a championship and couldn't compete with Golden State.
       

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    -Jason "and I haven't even gotten into the fact that Wiggins makes $15 mil less than Love, giving the Cavs room to make deals or bring in additional solid bench players" Evans
    You keep saying this, and it keeps not being true. The Cavs are over the cap, and have been basically ever since they signed LeBron. They had to trade other assets in order to be able to bring in Love in the first place. They did not have cap space to bring in additional solid bench players or make other deals.

    And you overlook the fact that - at the time - nobody foresaw Golden State being Golden State. Getting Love positioned Cleveland to win titles immediately, whereas Wiggins wouldn't have done so. Without Love, the Cavs probably don't win the title in 2016 (nor in 2015 or 2017), and LeBron is probably looking to leave soon. In hindsight, Love and Thompson don't work together against Golden State. But at the time, it was absolutely the right move for a guy looking to compete for titles immediately.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Indeed. Wiggins would become a decent player right when LeBron leaves for a different team because the Cavs never won a championship and couldn't compete with Golden State.
    Are you saying that if Cleveland had Wiggins instead of Love they would not have won the title last year? Care to provide any statistical evidence to back that up? You are aware that Kevin Love averaged 8.5 ppg, 6.8 rpg, with 5-19 3FG shooting in the NBA finals last year, right? He missed a game completely and the Cavs won that game by 30 points (the largest loss GSW have suffered in 3 years).

    I would love to hear the explanation for how Kevin Love was the integral piece of the puzzle that nets the Cavs the 2016 title, but Andrew Wiggins -- who averaged 20+ ppg, with a Defensive rating of 114 (Love was 102) -- would have prevented them from winning that title. Please, educate me!

    -Jason "all due respect, cato... you are a great poster and a smart guy, but Love was not a key element in the Cavs 2016 title... not even close" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Are you saying that if Cleveland had Wiggins instead of Love they would not have won the title last year? Care to provide any statistical evidence to back that up? You are aware that Kevin Love averaged 8.5 ppg, 6.8 rpg, with 5-19 3FG shooting in the NBA finals last year, right? He missed a game completely and the Cavs won that game by 30 points (the largest loss GSW have suffered in 3 years).

    I would love to hear the explanation for how Kevin Love was the integral piece of the puzzle that nets the Cavs the 2016 title, but Andrew Wiggins -- who averaged 20+ ppg, with a Defensive rating of 114 (Love was 102) -- would have prevented them from winning that title. Please, educate me!

    -Jason "all due respect, cato... you are a great poster and a smart guy, but Love was not a key element in the Cavs 2016 title... not even close" Evans
    A defensive rating of 114 is worse than a defensive rating of 102. You want a lower defensive rating, not a higher one.

    Wiggins scored 20+ ppg inefficiently on a bad team. He would probably not have averaged much or than low double digits (at best) with Irving and LeBron taking so many shots. He's not a great shooter, so he isn't a good option alongside Irving/James. And given his defensive weakness, I'm not sure he would even move the needle in that series.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    You keep saying this, and it keeps not being true. The Cavs are over the cap, and have been basically ever since they signed LeBron. They had to trade other assets in order to be able to bring in Love in the first place. They did not have cap space to bring in additional solid bench players or make other deals.
    But, at the time they made the deal, if the Cavs were merely bringing on a $5 mil a season draft pick rather than the $20+ mil Kevin Love, they would not have had to trade those other assets. They were not horribly over the cap and hamstrung when they signed LeBron because they were able to make a major deal for Kevin Love (and his huge salary) only a couple months later. If they had Wiggins on the team, the money they paid Love in 2014-15 and beyond could have been used for other serviceable players. I don't see why that is a hard thing to understand.

    Look, I know Cleveland is in horrible cap shape right now. GM Lebron largely dictated that when he forced the team to pay waaay too much for Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and other buddies (Iman Shumpert makes $10 mil a season). But, there was a window before they brought in Love where they had some flexibility. Anthony Bennett probably still had some trade value at that point. I think Cleveland hamstrung themselves unnecessarily and they continue to pay the price for that to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    And you overlook the fact that - at the time - nobody foresaw Golden State being Golden State. Getting Love positioned Cleveland to win titles immediately, whereas Wiggins wouldn't have done so. Without Love, the Cavs probably don't win the title in 2016 (nor in 2015 or 2017), and LeBron is probably looking to leave soon. In hindsight, Love and Thompson don't work together against Golden State. But at the time, it was absolutely the right move for a guy looking to compete for titles immediately.
    I 100% agree with you about this. No one saw the Warriors turning into this kind of a juggernaut. The 2013-14 Warriors won 51 games, but they were bounced in the first round of the playoffs by the Clips. Sure, their future looked good, but no one saw a 70-win superteam on the horizon. Draymond wasn't even a starter for them at that point and their post play was largely built around David Lee.

    I guess this line you wrote sums it up best: "Getting Love positioned Cleveland to win titles immediately..." That was the conventional wisdom at the time and that is what Lebron was all about at that moment. Heck, I bet he told Cleveland they had to get Love or he would not sign with them. At the time, and still today, I thought Love for Wiggins was a bad move because I was looking a couple years down the line. I was looking for Cleveland to be a championship contender for 8+ years, until LeBron retired and maybe beyond. Lebron did not care about that and what Lebron wants, Cleveland does. I get it... but I still think it was a bad move.

    -Jason "we've had this debate a million times... we all know where we stand. I am fine bowing out of it" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    But, at the time they made the deal, if the Cavs were merely bringing on a $5 mil a season draft pick rather than the $20+ mil Kevin Love, they would not have had to trade those other assets. They were not horribly over the cap and hamstrung when they signed LeBron because they were able to make a major deal for Kevin Love (and his huge salary) only a couple months later. If they had Wiggins on the team, the money they paid Love in 2014-15 and beyond could have been used for other serviceable players. I don't see why that is a hard thing to understand.
    I don't think you fully understand the way the cap and trades work, which is probably why you aren't understanding this. But first, at the time, Love was making $15.7 million and Wiggins $5.5. So it was not a $15+ million difference at that point. Second, the Cavs were over the cap. The only reason they were able to get Love via trade is because they involved a third team (76ers) in the deal to defray some of the costs (this is the part of the CBA that is complicated, so it is understandable not to understand it). They made the "huge" deal for Love by trading away Wiggins ($5.5 million) and Bennett ($5.6 million), and having Philadelphia absorb enough of the difference to make it work: as a capped out but not taxpaying team, you can only get $5 million more than you give out in a multi-team, "simultaneous trade" (Love's salary was less than $5 million more than that of Bennett and Wiggins combined).

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Look, I know Cleveland is in horrible cap shape right now. GM Lebron largely dictated that when he forced the team to pay waaay too much for Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and other buddies (Iman Shumpert makes $10 mil a season). But, there was a window before they brought in Love where they had some flexibility. Anthony Bennett probably still had some trade value at that point. I think Cleveland hamstrung themselves unnecessarily and they continue to pay the price for that to this day.
    There really wasn't much flexibility, as I outlined above. Cleveland was over the cap for 2014-15 the moment they signed LeBron. As such, they had no cap space to sign any free agents of note that summer.

    They would have had a little cap space after 2015 had they not signed Love, but not enough to add any stars, and not even enough to add anyone remotely decent without gutting the roster (including not bringing Thompson back). And if they managed to not spend any long-term money in 2015 (unlikely, given LeBron's win-now mode), they would have only had enough cap space for a second-tier free agent (like a Luol Deng, Pau Gasol, Timo Mozgov type) in 2016. And again, that would be without Thompson, Shumpert, etc on the roster.

    And the Bennett "asset" would have been toast as soon as LeBron arrived, as he wouldn't have seen the floor.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Here are the players who make between $20 and $22.2 million... which of them could you trade for Love?

    Chandler Parsons, SF $22,116,750
    Bradley Beal, SG $22,116,750
    Anthony Davis, PF $22,116,750

    Derrick Rose, PG $21,323,252
    Marc Gasol, C $21,165,675
    Brook Lopez, C $21,165,675
    Kevin Love, PF $21,165,675
    Nicolas Batum, SG $20,869,566
    LaMarcus Aldridge, PF $20,575,005
    Blake Griffin, PF $20,140,839
    Paul Millsap, PF $20,072,033

    I think a trade for Parsons, Rose, and maybe Batum or Lopez would go through. The rest of these teams laugh at the notion of a straight up deal for Love, right? Says something about whether Love is really worth the money they are paying him.
    I would add Aldridge, Griffin, and Millsap (bolded in green) as players that would also be traded for Love. Aldridge is in decline and over 3 years older than Love. Griffin is even more injury prone than Love in recent years, and the Clips would enjoy Love's shooting after years of having to work around Griffin and Jordan occupying the same space. And Millsap is 32; I would think your Hawks would trade for the 28-yr-old Love.

    In terms of who is the better player (so getting away from age being a factor), I still think only the guys in red are better than Love. I mean, Kevin Love's very, very good. In a world without GSW, he'd be a fantastic third wheel for a dynastic Cavs team.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    I would add Aldridge, Griffin, and Millsap (bolded in green) as players that would also be traded for Love. Aldridge is in decline and over 3 years older than Love. Griffin is even more injury prone than Love in recent years, and the Clips would enjoy Love's shooting after years of having to work around Griffin and Jordan occupying the same space. And Millsap is 32; I would think your Hawks would trade for the 28-yr-old Love.

    In terms of who is the better player (so getting away from age being a factor), I still think only the guys in red are better than Love. I mean, Kevin Love's very, very good. In a world without GSW, he'd be a fantastic third wheel for a dynastic Cavs team.
    I still would give Aldridge the edge but I have to admit, I'm not sure how good Love is. My gut is that he is a lot better than he has played in Cleveland. I think he needs the ball in the post more to produce at the level he did in Minnesota. I think his value has dropped since playing in Cleveland, but mostly due to the role he had been asked to play. The other thing I think hurts him a little is his defense. Seems undersized to guard the center position and just not quite mobile enough to guard the PF. I'm not sure trading Love at this point is going to fetch enough of a return to drastically improve the Cavs. If the Cavs want to dramatically change some things I think they would have to trade Irving, which I don't think they will do. I'm not sure any team in the NBA has the cap space, the draft picks, or the maneuverability to field a team that can beat the Warriors in a 7 game series without some help from injuries, suspensions, egos, etc. I think some teams will try and others may go into full rebuilding mode to try to compete in 3-4 years. I think the Cavs, no matter what they do, aren't going to be able to compete with the Warriors. No draft picks and no cap space leaves them in a bind.

    By the way, some people are saying that teams should put together a roster to try to beat the Warriors. Well, the Cavs did exactly that this year. Lebron the GM insisted in several moves and they just didn't pan out. Resigning Smith and Thompson and trading for Krover. A lot of the moves they made were to help make them a more dangerous three point shooting team, which they were in the regular season. However, the finals just exposed the defensive flaws that the Cavs seemed to overlook when Lebron the GM built this roster.
       

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    I would add Aldridge, Griffin, and Millsap (bolded in green) as players that would also be traded for Love. Aldridge is in decline and over 3 years older than Love. Griffin is even more injury prone than Love in recent years, and the Clips would enjoy Love's shooting after years of having to work around Griffin and Jordan occupying the same space. And Millsap is 32; I would think your Hawks would trade for the 28-yr-old Love.

    In terms of who is the better player (so getting away from age being a factor), I still think only the guys in red are better than Love. I mean, Kevin Love's very, very good. In a world without GSW, he'd be a fantastic third wheel for a dynastic Cavs team.
    Yeah, I think people are underestimating just how hard it is to look good/elite when you have two ball-dominant, iso-centric scorers on your team. I don't think Love is any worse today than he was in Minnesota. He just finished averaging 19 and 11 this year as a third option. That is amazing! If you put him on any team other than the two finalists and he probably averages 25 and 12.

    Part of the problem - and this would be true for almost anyone - is that LeBron and Irving are such brilliant one-on-one guys that the Cavs' offense basically boils down to isos and pick-and-rolls for those two. Everyone else is relegated to a catch-and-shoot or a pick-and-roll player. And that offense works for them. They torched almost everyone and even scored pretty well against Golden State. But it marginalizes the value of other offensive weapons. There just aren't a ton of guys who would excel in that role. JR Smith fits it. Klay Thompson. Danny Green. Guys like that.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Here are the players who make between $20 and $22.2 million... which of them could you trade for Love?
    I would do anything for Love.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Anthony Davis, PF $22,116,750
    But I won't do that.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    I would do anything for Love.



    But I won't do that.
    I need to spread some comments around... someone please take care of Brevity for me!
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I need to spread some comments around... someone please take care of Brevity for me!
    for me as well...
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

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  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    I still would give Aldridge the edge but I have to admit, I'm not sure how good Love is. My gut is that he is a lot better than he has played in Cleveland. I think he needs the ball in the post more to produce at the level he did in Minnesota. I think his value has dropped since playing in Cleveland, but mostly due to the role he had been asked to play. The other thing I think hurts him a little is his defense. Seems undersized to guard the center position and just not quite mobile enough to guard the PF. I'm not sure trading Love at this point is going to fetch enough of a return to drastically improve the Cavs.
    I disagree. I think GMs are savvy enough to realize what CDu pointed out above, which is that going from the #1 option to the #3 option will reduce a player's numbers. I think GMs realize he's the same Kevin Love he was in Minnesota. Better really, because he now has plenty of big-game experience and, imo, has improved his defense some.

    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    I'm not sure any team in the NBA has the cap space, the draft picks, or the maneuverability to field a team that can beat the Warriors in a 7 game series without some help from injuries, suspensions, egos, etc. I think some teams will try and others may go into full rebuilding mode to try to compete in 3-4 years. I think the Cavs, no matter what they do, aren't going to be able to compete with the Warriors. No draft picks and no cap space leaves them in a bind.
    On this we agree. It will be hard for contenders to assemble the greatest team ever, which is what they basically have to do in order to beat GSW. As an NBA fan, I still expect those contenders to try their best to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    By the way, some people are saying that teams should put together a roster to try to beat the Warriors. Well, the Cavs did exactly that this year. Lebron the GM insisted in several moves and they just didn't pan out. Resigning Smith and Thompson and trading for Krover. A lot of the moves they made were to help make them a more dangerous three point shooting team, which they were in the regular season. However, the finals just exposed the defensive flaws that the Cavs seemed to overlook when Lebron the GM built this roster.
    Just because the Cavs failed this season doesn't mean they should give up trying.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Just because the Cavs failed this season doesn't mean they should give up trying.
    100% agree, especially because I actually thought the series was reasonably close. The home team won in a blowout in 3 of the games. The Cavs seemed to be on their way to a close win in game 3, but went absurdly cold down the stretch to blow it. Game 5 was also reasonably close, even with Kyrie hurting his back and running out of gas in qtr 4.

    Kyle Korver, arguably the best long-range shooter in the NBA the past few seasons, had a terrible series. If he is his normal self (10+ ppg, 45% from 3) rather than the finals guy who only averaged 4 ppg on 31% 3FG, it changes the complexion of what Cleveland's second unit is able to do and maybe helps to keep them in games a bit when Lebron takes a brief rest.

    I am not saying Cleveland should win a series with Golden State, but it is not like it would be impossible. Maybe the Cavs will be able to pick up a useful player or two via the veteran minimum or some other deal. Stuff happens.

    -Jason "I would put the Warriors odds of repeating next season at maybe 40-50%, so someone else is fairly likely to win" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    -Jason "I would put the Warriors odds of repeating next season at maybe 40-50%, so someone else is fairly likely to win" Evans
    I am sure someone will ask, so...

    My totally unscientific, wild guess at the chances of every NBA team RIGHT NOW to win the 2018 NBA title:

    Warriors 45%
    Cavs 20%
    Spurs 13%
    Celtics 11%
    Rockets, Clips, and OKC 6% (2% each)
    Heat, Bucks, and Wiz 4% (1.33% each)
    Rest of the NBA combined 1% (this 1% is mostly Toronto and Utah)

    -Jason "so, how wildly insane am I?" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I am sure someone will ask, so...

    My totally unscientific, wild guess at the chances of every NBA team RIGHT NOW to win the 2018 NBA title:

    Warriors 45%
    Cavs 20%
    Spurs 13%
    Celtics 11%
    Rockets, Clips, and OKC 6% (2% each)
    Heat, Bucks, and Wiz 4% (1.33% each)
    Rest of the NBA combined 1% (this 1% is mostly Toronto and Utah)

    -Jason "so, how wildly insane am I?" Evans
    Warriors gotta be above 50%. This team looked unstoppable, and that's with Klay Thompson having a very mediocre series. Veterans are going to want to play for the Dubs.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I am sure someone will ask, so...

    My totally unscientific, wild guess at the chances of every NBA team RIGHT NOW to win the 2018 NBA title:

    Warriors 45%
    Cavs 20%
    Spurs 13%
    Celtics 11%
    Rockets, Clips, and OKC 6% (2% each)
    Heat, Bucks, and Wiz 4% (1.33% each)
    Rest of the NBA combined 1% (this 1% is mostly Toronto and Utah)

    -Jason "so, how wildly insane am I?" Evans
    I don't think it is reasonable to say that there is a greater than 1 in 5 chance that the champ will be the Celtics/Rockets/Clips/OKC/Heat/Bucks/Wiz/Other. I especially think the 11% for the Celtics is too high. I would put their title chances at about 2-3%. I think they are a solid regular season team that stands minimal chance in a 7-game series against an elite team.

    I would put the Warriors' chances higher (55-60%), the Cavs at 20%, the Spurs at 10-15%, and everyone else at 5-10%.

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