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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I'm not sure DeLaurier will ever be a stretch 4 in the Shane Battier, Ryan Kelly sense of the word. But he certainly could be a Lance-Thomas-kind of power forward. Rebound, defend, run the court, baskets of opportunity. And down the road maybe he could do a Tony Lang and learn to shoot.
    I believed Javin would have major impact to the program the 1st time I watched him in practice. I think the Lance comparison is perfect if he gets the chance and believe year opportunity is coming this year. He could be a sensational defensive stopper by the time he's a senior.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    For those who believe Antonio Vrankovic and Jack White are known commodities who have shown they can play at this level, consider this: last season, if you don't count the 50 point blowout against Georgia Tech, Antonio played a total of 10 minutes against ACC competition (he also played 1 minute against ACC competition in 2015-16), and Jack played a total of 6 minutes against ACC competition (for comparison's sake, Marques played 106 minutes against ACC competition, not counting Ga Tech).

    So, we have two guys (Antonio and Jack) who were ranked outside the top 200 coming out of high school and who essentially haven't played in any college game that matters. On what, exactly, are people basing their opinions that either of these guys have shown enough to warrant future playing time? I mean, I guess almost anything's possible, but to say that Antonio is going to beat out Marques or Javin for playing time, or that Jack is going to beat out Jordan T or even Alex for playing time, is actually much more of a wild hunch than that of the people who are enamored with the "shiny new toys," because those shiny toys have at least been evaluated as pretty good by the recruiting experts.
    Generally agree. However, Jordan Tucker's rankings (no. 40 in ESPN Top 100/no. 46 in last summer's RSCI) are a "wide chasm fixed" from his not making the Atlanta Journal Constitution's All-Metro team for this past season, even honorable mention for his own county's schools(Cobb County with 16 public high schools and several competitive private schools). By the AJC's evaluation (and I'm not touting the staff there as recruiting experts) Jordan would be no better than the fourth best player on his HS team (Wheeler). His 3 other teammates that did make the AJC's All-Metro teams are headed to Louisville, USC(not the Gamecocks), and Auburn(Class of '18) so he played on a team of considerable talent and maybe the AJC didn't want to stack the All-Metro teams with too many players from the same school. Hopefully the AJC's evaluation is way off and the ESPN experts have Jordan's talents fairly accurately assessed. Let's go, Duke!

    http://www.ajc.com/sports/high-schoo...s2VxKyYVSr9QN/
    "Play and practice like you are trying to make the team." --Coach K

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I'm not sure DeLaurier will ever be a stretch 4 in the Shane Battier, Ryan Kelly sense of the word. But he certainly could be a Lance-Thomas-kind of power forward. Rebound, defend, run the court, baskets of opportunity. And down the road maybe he could do a Tony Lang and learn to shoot.
    or do a lance thomas and learn to shoot. maybe Javin can have a chat with lance and learn his secrets before turning 26...

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    For those who believe Antonio Vrankovic and Jack White are known commodities who have shown they can play at this level, consider this: last season, if you don't count the 50 point blowout against Georgia Tech, Antonio played a total of 10 minutes against ACC competition (he also played 1 minute against ACC competition in 2015-16), and Jack played a total of 6 minutes against ACC competition (for comparison's sake, Marques played 106 minutes against ACC competition, not counting Ga Tech).

    So, we have two guys (Antonio and Jack) who were ranked outside the top 200 coming out of high school and who essentially haven't played in any college game that matters. On what, exactly, are people basing their opinions that either of these guys have shown enough to warrant future playing time? I mean, I guess almost anything's possible, but to say that Antonio is going to beat out Marques or Javin for playing time, or that Jack is going to beat out Jordan T or even Alex for playing time, is actually much more of a wild hunch than that of the people who are enamored with the "shiny new toys," because those shiny toys have at least been evaluated as pretty good by the recruiting experts.
    I didn't say that Vrankovic would beat out Jordan or Alex for playing time. For one thing, Antonio has Carter and Bolden in front of him at the 4 and 5 spots. Then you throw in Javin who is probably more apt to get minutes than Vrank. My post was more about what we'll get from Marquis. Will it be what we saw this past season or what the coaches saw in preseason practice. He must have done something to earn a place on the starting unit before his injury. I will say this, in my eye test, Antonio in the few minutes that I saw him play, looked like the better player. But of course, Bolden was the bight and shiny toy that had a much higher player ranking. I'll leave the minutes problem to the coaching staff and just root for all the players. No matter their rankings. GoDuke!

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by bob blue devil View Post
    or do a lance thomas and learn to shoot. maybe Javin can have a chat with lance and learn his secrets before turning 26...
    Yeah, some guys learn to shoot (like Lance) and some guys don't, at least so far (like Amile, as much as I love him).

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    I like the Javin to Lang comparison. Javin seems to be growing into more of an inside guy and I could see him developing the equivalent tools that Lang had at the end of his career. IIRC Lang actually had a decent offensive game his last year. More so than Thomas did at Duke. But it was more of an inside to mid-range game than a stretch four role.

    The backup perimeter player is most likely going to be a defensive liability. I like what White showed in his limited chances last season. He did not seem to lack confidence and had some toughness. Can he move his feet and stay in front of a 2G and/or a SF? That is going to be a problem for all the perimeter backups though. I wouldn't be surprised if the best option in the end is White.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    For those who believe Antonio Vrankovic and Jack White are known commodities who have shown they can play at this level, consider this: last season, if you don't count the 50 point blowout against Georgia Tech, Antonio played a total of 10 minutes against ACC competition (he also played 1 minute against ACC competition in 2015-16), and Jack played a total of 6 minutes against ACC competition (for comparison's sake, Marques played 106 minutes against ACC competition, not counting Ga Tech).

    So, we have two guys (Antonio and Jack) who were ranked outside the top 200 coming out of high school and who essentially haven't played in any college game that matters. On what, exactly, are people basing their opinions that either of these guys have shown enough to warrant future playing time? I mean, I guess almost anything's possible, but to say that Antonio is going to beat out Marques or Javin for playing time, or that Jack is going to beat out Jordan T or even Alex for playing time, is actually much more of a wild hunch than that of the people who are enamored with the "shiny new toys," because those shiny toys have at least been evaluated as pretty good by the recruiting experts.
    I'll take that challenge.

    First, [all together now] "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." If only the Bard had been around to post on DBR! Still trying to figure out how anyone was able to put a ranking on a player who never played here -- but, whatever. Vrank is the classic late bloomer, whose coordination is still developing, and whose HS play was fairly wooden, and I don't mean John.

    Second, why will Vrank and Jack play in 2018? Because they are two of only five players who have been part of the Duke program for more than two weeks and have been taught how K wants to run defense. Casting a gimlet eye at the in-coming crowd: the freshmen will have no clue about Duke-style team defense until January -- at best.

    Third, the most underappreciated players going into a new season are the veterans on the bench -- everyone focuses on the rookies and the returning stars.

    I expect both to play a good bit -- although Mo Bamba might affect Vrank's time on the court.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Yeah, some guys learn to shoot (like Lance) and some guys don't, at least so far (like Amile, as much as I love him).
    don't give up on amile yet - he's only 24, he can go to the lance thomas school too!

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by bob blue devil View Post
    don't give up on amile yet - he's only 24, he can go to the lance thomas school too!
    as much as i love Amile, even LT showed at least a mid-range jumper at Duke. He even hit a couple. Amile i don't think ever attempted one after a miss early in the season. OTOH, Amile had post moves that LT could only dream of.
    If, a big, big IF, Amile can develop a reliable jumper, not even a 3pointer mind you, he could become as valuable to an NBA team as LT.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I'll take that challenge.

    First, [all together now] "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." If only the Bard had been around to post on DBR! Still trying to figure out how anyone was able to put a ranking on a player who never played here -- but, whatever. Vrank is the classic late bloomer, whose coordination is still developing, and whose HS play was fairly wooden, and I don't mean John.

    Second, why will Vrank and Jack play in 2018? Because they are two of only five players who have been part of the Duke program for more than two weeks and have been taught how K wants to run defense. Casting a gimlet eye at the in-coming crowd: the freshmen will have no clue about Duke-style team defense until January -- at best.

    Third, the most underappreciated players going into a new season are the veterans on the bench -- everyone focuses on the rookies and the returning stars.

    I expect both to play a good bit -- although Mo Bamba might affect Vrank's time on the court.
    i agree in that my uneducated eye test liked vrank last season. it's tricky - my a priori for vrank was very low expectations because of the weak recruiting ranking. that perspective has been supported by the lack of minutes. but the minutes he did get were at the expense of jeter and bolden who were desperate for game time (albeit injuries played a part too) - the competition was pretty fierce and he got on the court on a few occasions where i was really surprised not to see jeter or bolden first. i interpreted that as a sign that vrank probably wasn't that far behind jeter or bolden and was putting in solid work. as you noted, vrank could be a late bloomer - not uncommon for big men. and he is big - very big - and has some athleticism; he's got some of the things you can't teach. and when he did get on the court, again, to my uneducated eye, he looked solid. so, it wouldn't shock me if vrank is a major contributor for duke one day and has a surprisingly productive professional basketball career. but, that's more hope than evidence at this point.

  11. #91
    I'd be a little disappointed if Javin doesn't make a small leap and push his way into the rotation. I really like his potential as a position 3-5 defender and a quick, bouncy finisher off missed baskets and dump offs. A perfect complement to the higher skilled, but slower front court. I don't see quite the potential in Jack, even though he looks to have a promising 3 pt shot. Doesn't seem to have either the foot speed for a perimeter defender or the size and bounce to do damage down low. As much as I like Vrank and his feel for the game, he is so slow with little lift that I don't see him ever being more than a situational player. Definitely not Zoubek 2.0. Who knows, though. I want all our players to become our best images of them.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I'll take that challenge.

    First, [all together now] "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." If only the Bard had been around to post on DBR! Still trying to figure out how anyone was able to put a ranking on a player who never played here -- but, whatever. Vrank is the classic late bloomer, whose coordination is still developing, and whose HS play was fairly wooden, and I don't mean John.

    Second, why will Vrank and Jack play in 2018? Because they are two of only five players who have been part of the Duke program for more than two weeks and have been taught how K wants to run defense. Casting a gimlet eye at the in-coming crowd: the freshmen will have no clue about Duke-style team defense until January -- at best.

    Third, the most underappreciated players going into a new season are the veterans on the bench -- everyone focuses on the rookies and the returning stars.

    I expect both to play a good bit -- although Mo Bamba might affect Vrank's time on the court.
    I agree completely. I am very bullish on DeLaurier and Vrank and White to a lesser degree. Just having a year of practice is going to put these guys ahead of some; at least at the start of the season. I agree with Vrank being a late bloomer. I think because of the low high school ranking it sometimes may seem like he has no or little upside. He also seems to be a hard worker and knows his strengths and weaknesses. Fundamentally sound. Can't wait to see him and big D blossom this year. I think we will see this happen. Some very good posts before this btw. Go Duke!

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    as much as i love Amile, even LT showed at least a mid-range jumper at Duke. He even hit a couple. Amile i don't think ever attempted one after a miss early in the season. OTOH, Amile had post moves that LT could only dream of.
    If, a big, big IF, Amile can develop a reliable jumper, not even a 3pointer mind you, he could become as valuable to an NBA team as LT.

    Lance averaged 4.6 points per game at Duke and attempted as many 3-pointers as you and I combined. I'd be surprised if he made more than five shots from further than 12 feet in his Duke career.

    Which makes his post-college improvement all the more laudatory.

    Lang, btw, averaged 12.4 ppg as a senior, making third-team All-ACC (in a smaller league). But his offense was 15-feet in. He was 0-3 on 3s for his career. I do think DeLaurier could develop into a better rebounder than Thomas or Lang, both of whom peaked in the 5 rpg-range.

    Jack White?

    Pretty small sample size at the college level. But he did play for the Australia team in the 2015 FIBA U-19 World Championships, averaging 8.3 points and 3.9 rebounds per game. He also represented Australia in the 2014 FIBA U-17 World Championships and the 2013 U-16 Oceania Championships.

    So, he does have some experience playing at high levels of competition. At 6-7, 215, I see him more as a 3/4 than a 3/2. His handle needs to improve to even think about being a primary ball-handler at this level. But I can definitely see him in the forward mix this season.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Correct. Duval, Allen, and Trent will not play 40. Pretty obvious there. So if somebody is filling in spot duty to give someone a breather is labeled as rotation then we'll have that.
    Yeah, but if those breathers add up to 12-15 mpg, that player is in the rotation. You can't just say someone who plays 30-37% of the game is not in the rotation.

    Plus, it's likely to be more minutes than even that. You already mentioned foul trouble; I could see the frosh Duval and Trent fouling a bit too much. What about when opponents play zone defense against Duke? I think we're going to see zone A LOT. Tucker (or someone) is going to have to come in to stretch out the zone. And there are probably other things that will pop up during gameplay that will require substitution -- hopefully not injury or a tripping of the opponent.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I'll take that challenge.

    First, [all together now] "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." If only the Bard had been around to post on DBR! Still trying to figure out how anyone was able to put a ranking on a player who never played here -- but, whatever. Vrank is the classic late bloomer, whose coordination is still developing, and whose HS play was fairly wooden, and I don't mean John.

    Second, why will Vrank and Jack play in 2018? Because they are two of only five players who have been part of the Duke program for more than two weeks and have been taught how K wants to run defense. Casting a gimlet eye at the in-coming crowd: the freshmen will have no clue about Duke-style team defense until January -- at best.

    Third, the most underappreciated players going into a new season are the veterans on the bench -- everyone focuses on the rookies and the returning stars.

    I expect both to play a good bit -- although Mo Bamba might affect Vrank's time on the court.
    OK, this explains why you expect Jack to play over Jordan T and Alex, though personally I haven't seen any evidence that Jack can play adequate defense at this level. Still, I can't argue with your conclusion because I think the three guys (Jack, Jordan T, and Alex) are basically in a dead-heat race for the fourth perimeter spot in the rotation -- whichever of them practices and plays better will get the spot.

    But your statement doesn't explain Antonio over Javin at all, since Javin is also one of the five returning players, has much better tools, and was considered a much better player in high school. And if you're suggesting all three of Jack, Antonio, and Javin will see rotation minutes, absent serious injury I'd bet a lot against that, right now.

    Also, on what do you base your assessment that Antonio is a "late bloomer"? His 11 career non-garbage time minutes against ACC competition, during which he committed 6 fouls (that's 21.8 per 40 minutes), 2 turnovers, and had just one rebound? I admit he looked pretty good against the likes of Marist (nobody taller than 6'9 and main center weighed 195 pounds) and Appalachian State (only one player taller than 6'9, but that guy only played 7 minutes, and the 6'9 guy weighed all of 200 pounds), but how is that so much more informative than scouting reports of our freshmen against top high school competition?

    Finally, you talk about recruiting ranking being prologue, but what about your statement that the freshmen won't understand defense until January? That's not only based on the past, it's based only on the recent past. We've had plenty of freshmen who could play Duke defense from the get-go. It mostly depends on their tools and their mindset. Applying what we've seen in the past to what little we know of both our returnees and our newcomers, I'd say Trevon, Javin, and Marques could be plus (maybe even plus-plus) defenders, right from the start of the season. Gary, Jordan T, Jack, and Alex, will probably not start the season as plus defenders and may not ever be. Wendell could go either way, but he has the tools, so it's just a matter of whether Coach K can instill the mindset.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Maryland
    I'm probably alone when I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. In my book, Tucker is starting over Trent. The reason is Tucker is the better shooter. From what I've seen/heard of Trent, while he is one of the best shooters, this is a weak shooting class and he is almost inconsistent. I think K wants more shooters on the floor, and therefore will need Tucker and Allen. However, I don't see him playing more than 20-25 mpg and Trent will be off the bench quickly.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    I'm probably alone when I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. In my book, Tucker is starting over Trent. The reason is Tucker is the better shooter. From what I've seen/heard of Trent, while he is one of the best shooters, this is a weak shooting class and he is almost inconsistent. I think K wants more shooters on the floor, and therefore will need Tucker and Allen. However, I don't see him playing more than 20-25 mpg and Trent will be off the bench quickly.
    Even though I am also somewhat concerned about Gary's 34%-from-3 number according to DraftExpress, I think Gary will shoot better than that for Duke because we'll improve his shot selection, which apparently is a weakness. If he only takes good 3s, that percentage will be better.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    I'm probably alone when I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. In my book, Tucker is starting over Trent. The reason is Tucker is the better shooter. From what I've seen/heard of Trent, while he is one of the best shooters, this is a weak shooting class and he is almost inconsistent. I think K wants more shooters on the floor, and therefore will need Tucker and Allen. However, I don't see him playing more than 20-25 mpg and Trent will be off the bench quickly.
    You may be alone with that prediction. No guts, no glory?

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    I'm probably alone when I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. In my book, Tucker is starting over Trent. The reason is Tucker is the better shooter. From what I've seen/heard of Trent, while he is one of the best shooters, this is a weak shooting class and he is almost inconsistent. I think K wants more shooters on the floor, and therefore will need Tucker and Allen. However, I don't see him playing more than 20-25 mpg and Trent will be off the bench quickly.
    OK, I think people might say I rely too much on recruiting rankings, but I think there's no way a freshman ranked #46 in the summer RSCI (and seemingly trending down in the updated services, so when the final 2017 RSCI comes out will probably be ranked worse than #46) will start over a freshman ranked #11 in the summer RSCI (and seemingly trending up in the updated services). What's more, while much has been made on this board of Gary shooting 34% from three in high school, in the stats I found for Jordan T (from his junior year; I couldn't find his senior year stats, hopefully he shot better as a senior), Jordan shot only 34.7% from three, so essentially the same.

    I think there's a pretty good chance Jordan T wins the competition with Alex and Jack for the 7th man. I think (absent injury) there's almost no chance he starts or plays ahead of Gary.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Maryland
    I respect all y'all's opinions, but I'm just trusting my gut on this one

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