2017 NBA Playoffs

[Troublemaker]

The Raptors going small -- moving Norman Powell into the starting lineup in place of Valanciunas -- has done wonders for Toronto and turned that series around. If they can close out the Bucks, they're going to give Cleveland a heck of a series, imo. Toronto pushed Cleveland to 6 last year and are improved this year.

[DukeTrinity11]

In the East... to be clear we are just talking about the East. I think the Finals will be muuuuch harder and I expect the Warriors or Spurs would beat the Cavs, perhaps in a few as 5 games.

Jason, I"ll have to disagree with you here about grouping the Spurs with the likes of GSW and the Cavs. While the Spurs had a great regular season record due to depth, good coaching and consistently elite defense, their guards are being completely exposed now in this series with the Grizzlies. Manu Ginobili is over the hill and is scoreless in this series while Tony Parker has been manhandled by Mike Conley and hasn't played well of the offensive end either.

Aldridge has been inconsistent and the combo of Randolph and Gasol is wearing down these Spurs. I wouldn't be shocked if the Grizzlies knock out the Spurs here,

[BigZ]

I think this Spurs team like the last few years is a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs. One star and a group of role players won't work. Unless Aldridge returns to his Blazers form I don't see the Spurs beating Houston or Golden State

[rsvman]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.

[Furniture]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.

They should have given Kyle a chance...

[duke4ever19]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.

I've got to hand it to Westbrook, he gave all he had, but was absolutely gassed by the 4th quarters of these games (as Reggie Miller pointed out a billion times) and just had nothing left in the tank which led to a lot of pressing and turnovers. People like to call it "hero ball" but heck, I wouldn't pass to people who can't shoot either. To average a triple-double with that supporting cast is amazing.

The problem was that OKC couldn't afford to sit Westbrook and hope to remain in the game.

Roberson (?!) should be absolutely ashamed of himself. He's a wing in the NBA and shot 12% from the line. He should walk home from Houston.

Reggie Miller said star players are supposed to trust their teammates, but Westbrook simply doesn't have anyone to trust. Maybe Taj Gibson? Adams bricks everything and was a major disappointment this year. McDermott and Singler can't stay on the floor because their defense sucks. Roberson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Oladipo was either warm or ice cold from the field. Kanter was a defensive liability and couldn't really play much this series.

OKC needs to get busy this off-season.

[darthur]

Roberson (?!) should be absolutely ashamed of himself. He's a wing in the NBA and shot 12% from the line. He should walk home from Houston.

Reggie Miller said star players are supposed to trust their teammates, but Westbrook simply doesn't have anyone to trust. Maybe Taj Gibson? Adams bricks everything and was a major disappointment this year. McDermott and Singler can't stay on the floor because their defense sucks. Roberson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Oladipo was either warm or ice cold from the field. Kanter was a defensive liability and couldn't really play much this series.

OKC needs to get busy this off-season.

That team surely has its limitations but:

- Roberson shot 7 for 17 for 3 in the series somehow = 41%. He is also an absolutely stud defender.
- Adams shot 18 for 28 in the series = 64%.
- Gibson shot 21 for 35 in the series = 60%.
- Grant shot 19 for 31 in the series = 61%.
- Kanter is a terrible matchup against Harden so didn't play much, but was a great offensive player all season.

Now let's do a breakdown by quarter:

Per quarter stats for Q1-Q3: Westbrook shots: 7.0, Westbrook assists: 3.2, Thunder team +-: +0.47
Per quarter stats for Q4: Westbrook shots: 9.4, Westbrook assists: 1.2, Thunder team +-: -10.0

Westbrook may have been tired, but he also *consistently* stopped passing to open teammates who were hitting shots all game long. Oh and apparently he set the all-time playoff record for most shots by a single player in a quarter. He absolutely deserves some of the blame for his team's collapses in the fourth. Playing hard is not always a good substitute for playing smart.

The team still has really nice pieces, but they were built around Durant and Westbrook together. With Durant gone, they need to trade away some of the defense/rebounding for more shot creators.

[duke4ever19]

That team surely has its limitations but:

- Roberson shot 7 for 17 for 3 in the series somehow = 41%. He is also an absolutely stud defender.
- Adams shot 18 for 28 in the series = 64%.
- Gibson shot 21 for 35 in the series = 60%.
- Grant shot 19 for 31 in the series = 61%.
- Kanter is a terrible matchup against Harden so didn't play much, but was a great offensive player all season.

Now let's do a breakdown by quarter:

Per quarter stats for Q1-Q3: Westbrook shots: 7.0, Westbrook assists: 3.2, Thunder team +-: +0.47
Per quarter stats for Q4: Westbrook shots: 9.4, Westbrook assists: 1.2, Thunder team +-: -10.0

Westbrook may have been tired, but he also *consistently* stopped passing to open teammates who were hitting shots all game long. Oh and apparently he set the all-time playoff record for most shots by a single player in a quarter. He absolutely deserves some of the blame for his team's collapses in the fourth. Playing hard is not always a good substitute for playing smart.

The team still has really nice pieces, but they were built around Durant and Westbrook together. With Durant gone, they need to trade away some of the defense/rebounding for more shot creators.

There's a reason that Westbrook's production dipped drastically in the 4th quarter of those games. Go look up Westbrook's minutes vs. that of Harden. As I said, the dude was gassed by the 4th quarter.

Also, those field-goal percentages are a bit of "fools gold" once you look at their yearly average, plus/minus, and minutes, plus what they could do with Westbrook out of the game (nothing).

Three of the four players you cited as having a high field goal percentage are interior-ish players and relatively low-volume shooters.

Adams averaged 8-points a game. This, from a guy who was supposed to have a break-out year. He was simply not a stable source of offense.

Jerami Grant (??) is a defensive player and averaged 5-points a game this year off the bench. He's incredibly raw and not a consistent source of offense. In fact, he's the exact opposite.

Kanter is a non-case (as you said) because as gifted as he might be, he couldn't stay on the floor. Same goes for McDermott . . . gifted shooter with zero defense.

Roberson might have shot 7 - 17 from three, but Houston was content to let him have all those looks, knowing he couldn't really burn them. Besides, seven makes spread over 5 games . . . Houston was fine with that. He also only averaged around 6-points a game this season and sucks from the free throw line. As I said, for a wing player, he should be ashamed of himself for shooting 12% from the line this series.

You left out Oladipo, who was not a good second-option.

Westbrook deserves his fair share of blame. He gambled on passes, which led to turnovers and he also pressed and tried to shoot his team back in games in the 4th quarter, when his tank was clearly empty. But I'm not going to pretend that Westbrook had lots of playmakers on his team and his selfishness ruined his chance to beat Houston.

[JasonEvans]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

[luburch]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

I think you could make an argument that Oladipo would be the second best player on the Pacers, Bulls, and Hawks and those are just playoff teams. Otherwise you could include the Magic, 76ers, Nets, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Suns, Pistons. So 11/30 teams.

[CDu]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

To be fair, I would say that Enes Kanter, Steven Adams, and Taj Gibson are all better players than Oladipo. But none of them are #2 players on a good team either.

But as for your question, probably the Lakers, Charlotte, Brooklyn, Sacramento, and Orlando would be the only teams in discussion. Which is kind of your point. It's not a good team at all without Westbrook.

And if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, they are competing for a title. It would have been really interesting, for example, if you swapped Westbrook with Isiah Thomas in Boston. Or if you swapped Westbrook with Rondo in Chicago. Or Westbrook with Teague in Indiana. Any of those teams would stand a good chance of getting out of the East.

[drummerdevil]

I think you could make an argument that Oladipo would be the second best player on the Pacers, Bulls, and Hawks and those are just playoff teams. Otherwise you could include the Magic, 76ers, Nets, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Suns, Pistons. So 11/30 teams.

Nets? No, not the nets. On the nets, he's the best player.
Lakers? Who are you putting him behind? Brandon is underrated, and D'Angelo Russell is better than Oladipo imo.
76ers I'm not sure. Is Jah better than Oladipo? Probably not, but I would rather have Jah anyway.
Bulls, no. Definitely not. Are you saying he's better than D Wade and Rondo? If so, look at Oladipo.
Kings, just like the nets, he's the best.

[gam7]

I'd give sporks to someone who tests with the commonly held belief that a team that plays more games in a prior round of the playoffs than its then current opponent is at a disadvantage (e.g., getting worn down while the current opponent rested).

In other words, the Warriors swept Portland, while the Jazz and Clippers battle it out in a series that will end 4-2 or 4-3. Does the empirical evidence show that the "more rested" team (Warriors) wins more often? Admittedly, it is impossible to isolate that variable, and the team that plays fewer games in the prior round is probably more likely to be the better team anyway. Still, I'd be interested to see the numbers.

[kAzE]

To be fair, I would say that Enes Kanter, Steven Adams, and Taj Gibson are all better players than Oladipo. But none of them are #2 players on a good team either.

But as for your question, probably the Lakers, Charlotte, Brooklyn, Sacramento, and Orlando would be the only teams in discussion. Which is kind of your point. It's not a good team at all without Westbrook.

And if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, they are competing for a title. It would have been really interesting, for example, if you swapped Westbrook with Isiah Thomas in Boston. Or if you swapped Westbrook with Rondo in Chicago. Or Westbrook with Teague in Indiana. Any of those teams would stand a good chance of getting out of the East.

I dunno . . . Oladipo seems to be yet another victim of playing on a team with Westbrook. OKC has had a history of under performing supporting guards: Dion Waiters, Cameron Payne, Randy Foye, Reggie Jackson, Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, Daequan Cook, Sebastian Telfair, Eric Maynor, etc.

In many cases, these are guys who played well before they got to OKC, or played well after they left OKC. My theory is that it's just freakin hard for other guards to play on a team with Westbrook. The guy uses an unprecedented percentage of his team's possessions, and that takes a toll on his teammates who are supposed to be ball handlers. It's hard to be good when you need ball and you play with Westbrook. You're constantly paranoid that if you miss a few shots or turn it over, you'll never touch the ball again. Guys also get used to just standing around and watching him play. That's not an excuse, it's just reality.

It's probably true that most of those guys were never going to be stars, but especially young guys like Cameron Payne just could never develop any confidence as an NBA player being a point guard on a team with Westbrook.

I'm not sure putting Westbrook on any team makes them a title contender. He's a guy who forces his style on your team, and if your team doesn't work that way, it might hurt your chemistry in ways that you can't see on paper. Why do you think Kevin Durant left OKC? I think it's because he played with Russell Westbrook for 8 years and realized it would be much more fun playing with the Warriors.

Look, do I think he's an amazing player and deserves all the credit for what he has accomplished? Absolutely. He's a force of nature the likes of which we may never see again. But would I want to play with him if I was an NBA point guard? HELL no. He's that guy you play pick up ball with who is better than everyone, and will never pass you the ball unless you're wide open for a shot, because he knows he's better than everyone.

I think only a guy like Gregg Popovich could reign him in.

[darthur]

There's a reason that Westbrook's production dipped drastically in the 4th quarter of those games. Go look up Westbrook's minutes vs. that of Harden. As I said, the dude was gassed by the 4th quarter.

But only his assists dipped. His shot attempts went up. I'm sure he was tired, but he also changed his playing style to go more solo and the numbers suggest this was a bad idea.

I'm obviously in the minority here, but if I'm GM for a playoff team, I'd rather have Steph Curry, Chris Paul, or James Harden over Russell Westbrook any day, and that's just Western Conference "point" guards. Westbrook did a heroic effort in terms of absorbing usage on a team that didn't have people who could absorb usage. Few people could have done better with the team he had. But he's still the same player he's always been and most playoff teams don't need someone who can absorb usage with decent-but-not-great efficiency, especially if that someone has a history of struggling to co-exist with other stars. IMO most playoff teams this year + Westbrook would lose to the Thunder last year and would not seriously challenge either the Warriors or Cavs this year.

PS: To kAzE's point, if I could choose between adding Westbrook for free to this Warriors team or not, I would choose not. If he could play within the system, he'd be awesome. I don't see any evidence that he would be willing to do that though, and I think he would disrupt what the team has.

[JNort]

I dunno . . . Oladipo seems to be yet another victim of playing on a team with Westbrook. OKC has had a history of under performing supporting guards: Dion Waiters, Cameron Payne, Randy Foye, Reggie Jackson, Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, Daequan Cook, Sebastian Telfair, Eric Maynor, etc.

In many cases, these are guys who played well before they got to OKC, or played well after they left OKC. My theory is that it's just freakin hard for other guards to play on a team with Westbrook. The guy uses an unprecedented percentage of his team's possessions, and that takes a toll on his teammates who are supposed to be ball handlers. It's hard to be good when you need ball and you play with Westbrook. You're constantly paranoid that if you miss a few shots or turn it over, you'll never touch the ball again. Guys also get used to just standing around and watching him play. That's not an excuse, it's just reality.

It's probably true that most of those guys were never going to be stars, but especially young guys like Cameron Payne just could never develop any confidence as an NBA player being a point guard on a team with Westbrook.

I'm not sure putting Westbrook on any team makes them a title contender. He's a guy who forces his style on your team, and if your team doesn't work that way, it might hurt your chemistry in ways that you can't see on paper. Why do you think Kevin Durant left OKC? I think it's because he played with Russell Westbrook for 8 years and realized it would be much more fun playing with the Warriors.

Look, do I think he's an amazing player and deserves all the credit for what he has accomplished? Absolutely. He's a force of nature the likes of which we may never see again. But would I want to play with him if I was an NBA point guard? HELL no. He's that guy you play pick up ball with who is better than everyone, and will never pass you the ball unless you're wide open for a shot, because he knows he's better than everyone.

I think only a guy like Gregg Popovich could reign him in.

To be fair, most of those guys did play well in OKC with him. They just happened to share the court with not 1 but 2 top 5 players in the league so they got a lot less use. None of those guys are very good now imo anyway. You couldn't pay me (as an owner) to take Jackson.

[JNort]

But only his assists dipped. His shot attempts went up. I'm sure he was tired, but he also changed his playing style to go more solo and the numbers suggest this was a bad idea.

I'm obviously in the minority here, but if I'm GM for a playoff team, I'd rather have Steph Curry, Chris Paul, or James Harden over Russell Westbrook any day, and that's just Western Conference "point" guards. Westbrook did a heroic effort in terms of absorbing usage on a team that didn't have people who could absorb usage. Few people could have done better with the team he had. But he's still the same player he's always been and most playoff teams don't need someone who can absorb usage with decent-but-not-great efficiency, especially if that someone has a history of struggling to co-exist with other stars. IMO most playoff teams this year + Westbrook would lose to the Thunder last year and would not seriously challenge either the Warriors or Cavs this year.

PS: To kAzE's point, if I could choose between adding Westbrook for free to this Warriors team or not, I would choose not. If he could play within the system, he'd be awesome. I don't see any evidence that he would be willing to do that though, and I think he would disrupt what the team has.

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

[camion]

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

Reminds me of a joke.
In Heaven:The cooks are French, The policemen are English, The mechanics are German, The lovers are Italian, The bankers are Swiss.
In Hell:The cooks are English, The policemen are German, The mechanics are French, The lovers are Swiss, The bankers are Italian.


As an exercise take those same players and qualities. Mix them to get the worst pg.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

Rose's legs?

[CDu]

Rose's legs?

Haha! Rose's legs, Rondo's shooting, and Curry's or Irving's defense would be on the list for the worst PG. Probably Rose's passing too. Leadership/brain is a trickier one.