Game of Thrones 2017 (no spoilers from leaks/theft!)

[Wander]

John and Sansa: While it feels like the show is setting them up for conflict, I'm not so sure. I liked that they came together after their quarrel and talked about things. I'm sure Littlefinger will try to sow discontent between them, but the show is going to have to do a lot more to convince me it is believable for Sansa to betray John in any way at this point.

I'm going to put myself in the (perhaps wishful thinking) minority here on the Jon/Sansa reunion. I think she's got Littlefinger's number and is playing him.

Wishful thinking. These betrayal storylines tend to start with hints early in the season - think Roose Bolton expressing disapproval at Robb Stark's naive methods and, more analogously, Stannis initially recoiling in disgust at the suggestion of sacrificing his daughter. I think one of the things GoT wants to do is to show how villains get born, and let's not forget that the show is fundamentally about politics and power, not cool fight scenes. Everyone banding together isn't in the theme of the show, and even taking away the obvious bad guys like Littlefinger and Cersei and just having Jon, Sansa, Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Jamie, Sam, and Bran banding together isn't really in the theme of the show.

I don't think Sansa is literally going to stab Jon or anything. Maybe she'll order the execution of those Umber and Karstark kids when Jon is away fetching dragonglass from Dany or something. But there will be a moment this season that we're all going to interpret as her betrayal of Jon.

[JNort]

So... thoughts about last night's ep.

Arya: How long did it take all of you to figure out Walder was Arya? When the scene started I thought it was a flashback, but the moment Walder did not drink the wine, I knew it was Arya. She's a cold blooded killer! That was a great way to begin the season but I sorta wonder what is up with Arya. I guess people don't really talk about "the news" all that much for her to hear that John Snow is ruling Winterfell. It would be nice for her to return home and reconnect with the family so they can plan stuff together. It is also possible that Arya just doesn't care much about long lost brothers and sisters compared to her desire to cross names off her list (with Cersei and Jamie being the next names in her crosshairs). At first I thought the sit-down with Ed Sheeran and the Lannister soldiers was a waste, but I think it was meant to show her (and us) some of the humanity of the grunts on the front lines. Perhaps their humanity will begin to melt Arya's cold heart.

John and Sansa: While it feels like the show is setting them up for conflict, I'm not so sure. I liked that they came together after their quarrel and talked about things. I'm sure Littlefinger will try to sow discontent between them, but the show is going to have to do a lot more to convince me it is believable for Sansa to betray John in any way at this point. In the grand scheme of things, not much happened at Winterfell this episode, other than Lady Mormont again and again showing everyone else in the North that she is the biggest bad!#% is the 7 Kingdoms. I could watch her scold old men about their dishonor for several hours without taking a pee break.

Dany: "Ooooh, I am touching the sand where I took my first steps." Yawn... ok, ok, I get that this was a big personal moment for her, but it just wasn't a big deal. I know the show needs to put pieces in place and Dany needs to be in the seat of power in Dragonstone, I get it. Still, pretty uneventful start to the season for a major character and her crew.

Cersei, Jamie, and Euron: I'll skip over the uneventful map conversation where Jamie and Cersei discuss how they are boxed in on all sides. I really enjoyed Euron's audience with them, both for Jamie's disdain of the Iron Born and for Euron's brash confidence. He and Jamie were really firing veiled insults at each other and it was fun. Of course, the key moment (perhaps of the entire episode) was Euron promising to bring Cersei a gift and then leaving. I suspect that "gift" will be a major plot driver over the next several episodes, if not this entire season. Anyone have any theories about what it will be? I think he is going to kidnap Tyrion. Tyrion is the perfect gift for Cersei, someone she hates and wants to kill and also someone who would have valuable information about what Dany is up to. Any other guesses?

The Wall: So, I'm guessing those theories that Bran reaching the wall would cause it to fall down (because of how the Knight's King marked him or something like that) are proven untrue at this point. I'm glad as I would rather see some other cool way for the Knight's King to bring the wall down. Clearly, The Hound's visions are going to take him and the rest of the Brohood to the Wall. Tormund and a bunch of Wildlings are going that way too. Could anyone tell if The Hound's vision was the Army of the Dead passing the Wall or just approaching it?

-Jason "a good start to the season. As I said, they are putting pieces in place. We should get some more action very soon... I hope" Evans

Regarding Arya:
As soon I we saw Walder my first thought was flashback or this is Arya and after the first couple of sentences i thought it was plainly Arya.
As for the scene with the Lannister men, i think this could be a big sign as to where we are headed with her. Will she kill them simply because who they fight with or show them mercy because they aren't the true players and are just being used as pawns. I think the whole point in that scene was for her to see that there are good people on both sides and not everyone is to blame. So... does she become a ruthless killer or an assassin who wants to make a difference. If she takes the first path I see no good outcome for her story down the road.

Dany and Tyrion:
Fairly certain the whole point of their scene was just to give us a cliffhanger until next time and show us she has truly (and finally!) arrived.

Euron (potentially a spoiler)
I assume this gift is gonna be something to help Cersei defeat or hamper Danys dragons. If you've read the books then this was introduced long ago when he was trying to make his claim for the Salt Throne or whatever they call it.


Bran:
My understanding wasn't that him passing thru the wall would make it fall but rather it would cease the magic stopping the White Walkers from entering much like the under the tree escape from last season. Now that he has passed by the wall I think the WW can now take the wall down or walk past it.

[luburch]

Regarding Arya:

Euron (potentially a spoiler)

Bran:
My understanding wasn't that him passing thru the wall would make it fall but rather it would cease the magic stopping the White Walkers from entering much like the under the tree escape from last season. Now that he has passed by the wall I think the WW can now take the wall down or walk past it.

I agree with your statements about both Euron and Bran.

I wish the Jon/Sansa bickering/betrayal wasn't happening, because it's really dumb and feels forced, but I think Sansa is going to do something stupid.

[JasonEvans]

Maybe she'll order the execution of those Umber and Karstark kids when Jon is away fetching dragonglass from Dany or something.

Speaking of which, how did folks feel about Jon's decision there? Was he right not to punish the children for the actions of their fathers or was Sansa right that you reward your allies and punish your enemies? After all, the Umber and Karstark leaders merely perished on the battlefield in the battle of the bastards, the same fate as befell everyone on the losing side. There was no additional punishment for their betrayal of generations of loyalty to the Stark family.

I wonder if Jon knows that Rickon was handed over to the Boltons by the Karstarks? Is Sansa aware of that?

I'm torn about it. On the one hand, Jon is correct that it seems unfair to let the actions of a few adults ruin generations of a family's heritage. On the other hand, these families have been allies for centuries and it feels like the best way to keep your allies is to show them how truly terrible it is to betray you. I mean, are you really going to treat the Karstarks and Umbers no differently than the Mormonts? There should have been some middle ground where the Karstarks and Umbers face some kind of extra taxes or something. Perhaps they have to give up some portion of their lands. Frankly, the Mormonts on Bear Island need to be given as much as the rest of the North can afford to give up. Mormonts rock!!!

-Jason "if this whole thing somehow ends with 12-year-old Lyanna sitting on the Iron Throne, I will be more than satisfied" Evans

[JNort]

One more comment/question again but this time regarding Beric Dondarrion (the guy who keeps coming back to life).

So he made a comment to the Hound (I think) that he doesn't know why he keeps coming back to life and isn't sure why the Lord of Light wants him still.

Well... potential spoilers below.

In the books he dies for the final time to use his life to resurrect Catelyn Stark and therefore creates the Lady Stoneheart in the process. However this seems waaayyyy to late to do and would probably be to complicated to introduce an entirely new character with only a handful of episodes left. Besides her apparent purpose in the books is to kill Frey men but Arya has done just that already.

So why does the Lord of Light keep bringing him back? What purpose does he have to fulfill?


Anyone catch the scenes for next time?!?!?! Was that Nymeria (Aryas Direwolf)?

[JasonEvans]

Bran:
My understanding wasn't that him passing thru the wall would make it fall but rather it would cease the magic stopping the White Walkers from entering much like the under the tree escape from last season. Now that he has passed by the wall I think the WW can now take the wall down or walk past it.

I sorta feel like if the show was going to go that route -- that Bran's presence at the Wall was meaningful for the WW army -- then we would have seen some hint of it when he went through the gates. We would have seen the mark on his arm glow or maybe he would have scratched it... something to clue us in that something significant happened. I suppose they can do it some other time, but this feels like the moment it would have happened.

-Jason "never forget, the show is telling a story both to those of us who obsess over every tiny detail and folks like my wife who see Beric Dondarrion and says, 'who is he again?'" Evans

[JNort]

Speaking of which, how did folks feel about Jon's decision there? Was he right not to punish the children for the actions of their fathers or was Sansa right that you reward your allies and punish your enemies? After all, the Umber and Karstark leaders merely perished on the battlefield in the battle of the bastards, the same fate as befell everyone on the losing side. There was no additional punishment for their betrayal of generations of loyalty to the Stark family.

I wonder if Jon knows that Rickon was handed over to the Boltons by the Karstarks? Is Sansa aware of that?

I'm torn about it. On the one hand, Jon is correct that it seems unfair to let the actions of a few adults ruin generations of a family's heritage. On the other hand, these families have been allies for centuries and it feels like the best way to keep your allies is to show them how truly terrible it is to betray you. I mean, are you really going to treat the Karstarks and Umbers no differently than the Mormonts? There should have been some middle ground where the Karstarks and Umbers face some kind of extra taxes or something. Perhaps they have to give up some portion of their lands. Frankly, the Mormonts on Bear Island need to be given as much as the rest of the North can afford to give up. Mormonts rock!!!

-Jason "if this whole thing somehow ends with 12-year-old Lyanna sitting on the Iron Throne, I will be more than satisfied" Evans

Jon partially got it right. They have been loyal and strong supporters to the Starks for a long time so I wouldn't cast them off for the sins of 2 bone heads who happened to be leading them at the time. You do however need further punishments. I would propose to fine them or something similar. Perhaps tax them extra for 10 years or they have to provide their usual goods at a discounted rate to everyone they betrayed for X amount of time.

[Wander]

Speaking of which, how did folks feel about Jon's decision there?

I think that depends on if you believe the White Walker army truly represents an apocalyptic threat, as Jon believes, or if you instead believe (in what was the most interesting dialog of the episode to me) the head librarian who told Sam that, sure, winter sucks, but isn't really a serious threat to the very existence of Westeros.

[LasVegas]

Wishful thinking. These betrayal storylines tend to start with hints early in the season - think Roose Bolton expressing disapproval at Robb Stark's naive methods and, more analogously, Stannis initially recoiling in disgust at the suggestion of sacrificing his daughter. I think one of the things GoT wants to do is to show how villains get born, and let's not forget that the show is fundamentally about politics and power, not cool fight scenes. Everyone banding together isn't in the theme of the show, and even taking away the obvious bad guys like Littlefinger and Cersei and just having Jon, Sansa, Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Jamie, Sam, and Bran banding together isn't really in the theme of the show.

I don't think Sansa is literally going to stab Jon or anything. Maybe she'll order the execution of those Umber and Karstark kids when Jon is away fetching dragonglass from Dany or something. But there will be a moment this season that we're all going to interpret as her betrayal of Jon.

But starks are loyal, no? Has there been a stark betrayal yet? Seems out of character for Sansa to fall into littlefingers trap. She is a strong, intelligent women and I think the writers like that. I think she gets the best of littlefinger in the end.

If I'm playing the "game" then I would have Jon marry dany (ew) and bend a knee to her. The north plus dany's army, I don't see how they would lose. Jon at least needs to join forces with dany. Somehow.

The larger issue is a few people want to battle for the iron throne and the north is trying to save everyone from the white walkers. They need more help.

[Mal]

Jon partially got it right. They have been loyal and strong supporters to the Starks for a long time so I wouldn't cast them off for the sins of 2 bone heads who happened to be leading them at the time. You do however need further punishments. I would propose to fine them or something similar. Perhaps tax them extra for 10 years or they have to provide their usual goods at a discounted rate to everyone they betrayed for X amount of time.

I'm not sure. If calibrated correctly, I guess this could work, but in the abstract it feels a little Treaty of Versailles to me. "Hey, guess what? Winter's here! For your sins we're going to knowingly impoverish you for its duration and hope your resentment doesn't grow with each 16 hour night while you're snowed in out there. Promise not to invade Poland, though, OK?"

I think Jon and Sansa both had good points, and that within the contexts of each of their points of view on where the world of Westeros sits right now, were correct. For Jon, the apocalypse is on its way, he needs every ally he can get, and I think he puts the likelihood of the impressionable young Umber or Karstark kids meaningfully turning on him in the rather short term before his war for humanity begins as vanishingly small. Keep in mind that he basically said "I'll cut your heads off, kids, if you betray me. Personally." If they all beat back the Night King, then there's good feelings to last a century and re-establish the long ties between all the houses of the North.

Separate topic - it strikes me as a massive wildcard that we still don't know the full extent of Bran's powers or what his destiny may be. Or whether or not his being marked will have a tragically devastating effect. Is he going to get back and tell Jon the truth of his parentage and then perish? Is he going to end up being the only one left to restart human society and build a new Wall after the armageddon started by him? Maybe time is a flat circle, y'all.

[LasVegas]

And the ed sheeran cameo was about as dumb as it gets.

[JNort]

And the ed sheeran cameo was about as dumb as it gets.

I've seen a couple people say this and I don't get it. I found it a pretty cool way to throw him in there.

[JNort]

I'm not sure. If calibrated correctly, I guess this could work, but in the abstract it feels a little Treaty of Versailles to me. "Hey, guess what? Winter's here! For your sins we're going to knowingly impoverish you for its duration and hope your resentment doesn't grow with each 16 hour night while you're snowed in out there. Promise not to invade Poland, though, OK?"

I think Jon and Sansa both had good points, and that within the contexts of each of their points of view on where the world of Westeros sits right now, were correct. For Jon, the apocalypse is on its way, he needs every ally he can get, and I think he puts the likelihood of the impressionable young Umber or Karstark kids meaningfully turning on him in the rather short term before his war for humanity begins as vanishingly small. Keep in mind that he basically said "I'll cut your heads off, kids, if you betray me. Personally." If they all beat back the Night King, then there's good feelings to last a century and re-establish the long ties between all the houses of the North.

Separate topic - it strikes me as a massive wildcard that we still don't know the full extent of Bran's powers or what his destiny may be. Or whether or not his being marked will have a tragically devastating effect. Is he going to get back and tell Jon the truth of his parentage and then perish? Is he going to end up being the only one left to restart human society and build a new Wall after the armageddon started by him? Maybe time is a flat circle, y'all.

Guess I should have said that for the taxes or cheapened goods/services I wouldn't implement them during the war or even during the winter. Not does it have to be a heavy penalty. Up their taxes by 5% for the duration of the next summer or something.

[LasVegas]

I've seen a couple people say this and I don't get it. I found it a pretty cool way to throw him in there.

It just seems like a cheap gimmick to me. I just never thought a show like GOT would try to pull something like that.

[El_Diablo]

It just seems like a cheap gimmick to me. I just never thought a show like GOT would try to pull something like that.

They've had musician cameos pretty much every season. Sheeran is the most recognizable one though (to Americans, at least).

[Mal]

...Sheeran is the most recognizable one though (to Americans, at least).

You missed the word "sadly" somewhere in there.

[JasonEvans]

10.1 million folks watched last night, far and away the most to ever watch an HBO program. Another 6 million have watched via DVR or HBO streaming service (HBOGo and HBONow) since 9am ET last night.

Still, it is seems sorta amazing to me that 90% of America has never seen Game of Thrones.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

They've had musician cameos pretty much every season. Sheeran is the most recognizable one though (to Americans, at least).

I agree that it is awkward. Felt more like The Muppets than like GoT.

Overall great episode. The Arya open was perfection. Most of the rest was table-setting for the main course, and I am fine with that.

Great to have The Hound back in the fold. His journey is as interesting to me any anyone else in this world.

I am expecting the rest of the season to have a break-neck pace.

[fidel]

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. It is known.

We know that Leanna whispered to Ned about taking care of Jon. We do not know what she said otherwise.

[Deslok]

Another note on the Jon/Sansa thing... how big a crime is engaging in the slave trade? Should Lady Mormont be punished for the crimes that Jorah committed, but never was(he was due to be executed by Ned but fled to the Free Cities before he could be captured)