The Americans -- Season 5

[Jeffrey]

Hmm...interesting.

Still, there was no embarrassment on the American side equal to the wheat fiasco, which really started Phillip's departure from the KGB work, and nothing like the attempt to assassinate Gorbachev in Season 6, which moved Elizabeth a great deal, and there was nothing like the Paige dressing down of Elizabeth over tactics either.
(maybe you haven't seen that). All three of those painted a clear picture of the real score. Nobody was perfect, but there was no moral equivalence either. Not in the last two seasons.

Throw in the crop failures, the empty store shelves, the corruption all through the Soviet supply chain, the bullet in the head murders in the bowels of Lubyanka, compared to the quality of life and the going out of their way to be fair tactics of the FBI, and it was a lopsided score.

Hooray for our side!

If there truly was "a pretty clear case for who was right/wrong in the Cold War", then why are we now in Cold War II?

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not to get into PPB territory, but the other takeaway I experienced was just that both sides were frantically fighting for their survival and way of life. No one came away looking particularly virtuous.

[Neals384]

Fair enough, but let me ax you this: did you come away with a sense of moral equivalency? I mean, the show made it clear in the final two seasons that there was no equivalency, and it would be pretzel yoga logic to think otherwise.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago.

Well yes, it was a period piece...about the 80s...so of course. I'm not sure what your point is.

I'd also say you don't understand modern Russia if you think everything has changed. The KGB, under a new name, is still in business with many of the same people, even in the same HQ building with the same jails and dungeons. A KGB officer runs the country, and it's a brutal dictatorship, only no longer communist, more of a tyrannical oligarchy. And yes, the well connected oligarchs are among the richest people in the world, and Putin probably is the richest guy in the world, and some other Russians have gotten in on it a bit, but not the masses.

[jimsumner]

Well yes, it was a period piece...about the 80s...so of course. I'm not sure what your point is.

I'd also say you don't understand modern Russia if you think everything has changed. The KGB, under a new name, is still in business with many of the same people, even in the same HQ building with the same jails and dungeons. A KGB officer runs the country, and it's a brutal dictatorship, only no longer communist, more of a tyrannical oligarchy.

I think the point may have been to follow the "pretzel logic" reference with some Steely Dan lyrics.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think the point may have been to follow the "pretzel logic" reference with some Steely Dan lyrics.

Ah, thanks Jim, and I think you're right. My lack of catching that did, however, provide me with an opportunity to make a point. Ironic, ain't it?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Not to get into PPB territory, but the other takeaway I experienced was just that both sides were frantically fighting for their survival and way of life. No one came away looking particularly virtuous.

Yeah, life in the two countries was practically identical. No separation on the wheat, no separation on the bullets to the back of the head in Lubyanka Prison, no separation on the grocery store shelves and lifestyle....carbon freaking copies. Let's call it a tie.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, life in the two countries was practically identical. No separation on the wheat, no separation on the bullets to the back of the head in Lubyanka Prison, no separation on the grocery store shelves and lifestyle...carbon freaking copies. Let's call it a tie.

I said absolutely nothing about life being identical. I am not sure what exactly you are on about.

I said both sides were desperately scrapping for survival and neither came across as particularly virtuous.

I didn't even suggest a moral equivalence between the two nations, but said that neither came out looking rosy.

As always, especially on anonymous forums, you may have a different opinion. If so, feel free to misrepresent mine and attack it.

The show was very well done, and I felt it did an excellent job of showing both sides of the coin during an extremely complex and delicate diplomatic time. Missteps could have been truly catastrophic, and through some tact and some luck, nuclear war did not happen.

[Troublemaker]

I would say the main thrust of the show was: "Boy, this espionage stuff is soul-draining no matter which side you're on." It cost Stan his marriage, for example, the ability to fully trust his new love Renee, and of course his best friend Philip in the end. He shed innocent blood (when he killed Vlad), he essentially killed his mistress and lover Nina by choosing country over her, and yet he finally also went against his country and his bosses at the FBI when he wanted to help his friend Oleg out of a bind.

That the show also showed the economic realities of communism was incidental (i.e. realistic portrayal) imo and not intended to be a significant takeaway.

[Jeffrey]

did you come away with a sense of moral equivalency? I mean, the show made it clear in the final two seasons that there was no equivalency

And we just walked along, alone
With our guilt so well concealed
And muttered underneath our breath
Nothing is revealed

[budwom]

when I was there the stores were as empty as you've heard*, but they did have world class displays of hundreds of cans of mackerel...so they had that, omega three acids, etc.

*the Dip Gas (diplomatic gastronome) stores had lots of good stuff, but you had to have dollars there...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I said absolutely nothing about life being identical. I am not sure what exactly you are on about.

I said both sides were desperately scrapping for survival and neither came across as particularly virtuous.

I didn't even suggest a moral equivalence between the two nations, but said that neither came out looking rosy.

As always, especially on anonymous forums, you may have a different opinion. If so, feel free to misrepresent mine and attack it.

The show was very well done, and I felt it did an excellent job of showing both sides of the coin during an extremely complex and delicate diplomatic time. Missteps could have been truly catastrophic, and through some tact and some luck, nuclear war did not happen.

When you say "both sides" this and that and "neither side" this or that, you actually are establishing an equivalency. Maybe you didn't mean to, but in context, with Jeffrey saying the series was neutral, or merely taken on its on, the only reason to lump together in such a manner is to establish equivalency. Thats what your statement did.

The series didn't bash you over the head with it, but, especially seasons 5 and 6, there was a clearly superior side, balanced by the fact that most of the main characters were on the inferior side.

That said, I do agree with your last sentence 100%.

[Jeffrey]

...with Jeffrey saying the series was neutral...

Not sure I said the series was neutral. I merely disagreed with your assessment that there was "a pretty clear case for who was right/wrong in the Cold War". IMO, the main theme of The Americans was not about "who was right/wrong in the Cold War". I think the series expressed a lot more wrongs than rights.