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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    Vandenberg

    Thought about giving Steve Vandenberg some love for his career high of 33 he put up in win against UNC in 69. 10-14 from the field. 13-13 from the free throw line. 12 boards.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    No worries.. Good post. I enjoyed it. Did the Cougars play in 3 different cities every year or was that something that came about later to try & draw more fans?

    As a kid I loved the ABA.. Last year I read 'Loose Balls" & Dr. J's biography which I enjoyed both & the stories of the ABA.
    I think the team played in Greensboro, Raleigh and Charlotte while here in North Carolina. The original purchase price was 30K by a Houston based company. Then later was purchased by Southern Sports corp. for 350K in 1969. In 1970 Ted Munchak purchased the team. In 1974 the team moved to ST. Louis and in 1976 the team was planning to move to Salt Lake City but the 4 remaining ABA teams made an agreement for the team to fold. The cost, 2.2 million dollars and a share of the TV money from those 4 remaining teams. After the team moved to St. Louis, I was way less interested in the team but I still hold the Carolina Cougars as a favorite time in my life. GoDuke.

  3. #23

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by heyman25 View Post
    1. Art Heyman
    2. Jeff Mullins
    3. Bob Verga
    4. Jack Marin
    5. Randy Denton
    6. Steve Vacendak
    7. Mike Lewis
    8. Howard Hurt
    9. Jay Buckley
    10. Dick DeVenzio
    My only quibble with your list is No. 10.

    I don't get DeVenzio over Buzzy Harrison. As I mentioned earlier, Buzzy was a three-year starter (two of them Final Four teams) and he earned second-team All-ACC honors as a senior. He was probably the third best player on the '63 Final Four team (behind Heyman and Mullins) and again in '64 (behind Mullins and Buckley, who made a major improvement in his senior year). I'd also have Hack Tison and maybe Steve Vandenberg ahead of DeVenzio.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Van Nuys, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    My only quibble with your list is No. 10.

    I don't get DeVenzio over Buzzy Harrison. As I mentioned earlier, Buzzy was a three-year starter (two of them Final Four teams) and he earned second-team All-ACC honors as a senior. He was probably the third best player on the '63 Final Four team (behind Heyman and Mullins) and again in '64 (behind Mullins and Buckley, who made a major improvement in his senior year). I'd also have Hack Tison and maybe Steve Vandenberg ahead of DeVenzio.
    You are probably correct,but my memory of Buzzy Harrison's play was not in my memory like Devenzio. UNC got his teammate in high school Dennis Wuycik who had a better career than the late Dick DeVenzio.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by heyman25 View Post
    You are probably correct,but my memory of Buzzy Harrison's play was not in my memory like Devenzio. UNC got his teammate in high school Dennis Wuycik who had a better career than the late Dick DeVenzio.
    There were hopes and dreams that DeVenzio would be the next Cousey but it never happened. Might have been teammates and might have been Dick.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    This is all great as far as it goes, but there's a major problem, which is that the sixties was the last decade the ACC was heavily segregated/barely integrated. So there's a very good chance that part of the reason these guys look so amazing is that they were shielded from competition with AfAm and international players. Yes, Heyman would have been great anywhere in any era probably, but after that, IDK.

    One can make a list "greatest New York Yankees of the 1930s." But it doesn't tell you much about baseball anymore.

    I mean seriously, imagine making a list of all the greatest males in a field one decade before women were allowed something like full participation in it. You can do that, but, you might wanna think about the optics before you do.

    (Still on the Verga retirement bandwagon, I suppose).

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    This is all great as far as it goes, but there's a major problem, which is that the sixties was the last decade the ACC was heavily segregated/barely integrated. So there's a very good chance that part of the reason these guys look so amazing is that they were shielded from competition with AfAm and international players. Yes, Heyman would have been great anywhere in any era probably, but after that, IDK.

    One can make a list "greatest New York Yankees of the 1930s." But it doesn't tell you much about baseball anymore.

    I mean seriously, imagine making a list of all the greatest males in a field one decade before women were allowed something like full participation in it. You can do that, but, you might wanna think about the optics before you do.

    (Still on the Verga retirement bandwagon, I suppose).
    Mullins proved he could play against anyone. Good but not great pro career. Art wasn't as good as Jeff in the pros but that's just my opinion, which doesn't mean much. Billy Cunningham and Bobby Jones of the Uncheats played well in the pros as well. But that still was before the NBA became mostly AFAM players. GoDuke!

    I'm on the Verga retirement(jersey) as well. GoDuke and GoRedbirds!
    Last edited by jv001; 02-18-2017 at 10:58 AM. Reason: added comment.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    This is all great as far as it goes, but there's a major problem, which is that the sixties was the last decade the ACC was heavily segregated/barely integrated. So there's a very good chance that part of the reason these guys look so amazing is that they were shielded from competition with AfAm and international players. Yes, Heyman would have been great anywhere in any era probably, but after that, IDK.

    One can make a list "greatest New York Yankees of the 1930s." But it doesn't tell you much about baseball anymore.

    I mean seriously, imagine making a list of all the greatest males in a field one decade before women were allowed something like full participation in it. You can do that, but, you might wanna think about the optics before you do.

    (Still on the Verga retirement bandwagon, I suppose).
    Yes, the ACC was slow to integrate, but that doesn't diminish what they accomplished on a national scale in the in that decade. Duke's all-white team (or slightly integrated with little-used CB Claiborne) was ranked in the top 10 nationally in seven of eight years -- in the top three in 3 of four years in the middle of that stretch. Bubas had three Final Four teams and an Elite Eight team against integrated teams in the NCAA Tournament. They had a legendary rivalry in that era with Michigan, which boasted such black stars as Cazzie Russell, Bill Buntin and Oliver Darden.

    And you don't know if anybody other that Heyman could have played in an integrated era? Are you kidding? Jeff Mullins, Jack Marin and Bob Verga were all professional stars -- in the integrated NBA or ABA. Many of the other guys we're talking about also played pro ball. And it's not like white guys (Kennard, Grayson Allen) can't play in today's environment.

    PS And the New York Yankees were pretty doggone good ...

  10. #30
    Thanks for this thread. Always interested in Duke players before my time. Didn't see any of them play at Duke, but Mullins was my favorite Warrior as a child. Sat in front of my family on a cross country plane flight and played with hometown hero Hack Tison at Duke (same reason I always paid attention to Jack Marin in the NBA).

    Does Verga have a realistic chance at jersey retirement? Other than Mullins, G Man, and Hurley, all the other honored players won some national player of the year award. Verga wasn't ACC POY. Would seem tough to make a case retroactively.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Mullins proved he could play against anyone. Good but not great pro career. Art wasn't as good as Jeff in the pros but that's just my opinion, which doesn't mean much. Billy Cunningham and Bobby Jones of the Uncheats played well in the pros as well. But that still was before the NBA became mostly AFAM players. GoDuke!

    I'm on the Verga retirement(jersey) as well. GoDuke and GoRedbirds!
    The money wasn't very attractive in the 1960's NBA. Jay Buckley, who was drafted in a later round, told me that the starting offers were only a few thousand a year, hardly better than what he made as a physics grad student at Hopkins.

    Mullins was maybe better than just "good" as a pro player. His best six years he averaged 20.5, 5.5 and 4.7 for the Warriors. Jeff was on the Left Coast and didn't get much TV time elsewhere. Marin was more prominent as a Bullet for six seasons (11-year career).
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    Thought about giving Steve Vandenberg some love for his career high of 33 he put up in win against UNC in 69. 10-14 from the field. 13-13 from the free throw line. 12 boards.
    Of all the Duke players I have seen while I was a student, or in the decades afterward, Vandenberg constantly traveled around campus with the most impressive two girlfriend entourage I have ever seen.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The money wasn't very attractive in the 1960's NBA. Jay Buckley, who was drafted in a later round, told me that the starting offers were only a few thousand a year, hardly better than what he made as a physics grad student at Hopkins.

    Mullins was maybe better than just "good" as a pro player. His best six years he averaged 20.5, 5.5 and 4.7 for the Warriors. Jeff was on the Left Coast and didn't get much TV time elsewhere. Marin was more prominent as a Bullet for six seasons (11-year career).
    In 1972, Jack Marin was traded, one for one, for Elvin Hayes.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    DC and DE Beach
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    This is all great as far as it goes, but there's a major problem, which is that the sixties was the last decade the ACC was heavily segregated/barely integrated. So there's a very good chance that part of the reason these guys look so amazing is that they were shielded from competition with AfAm and international players. Yes, Heyman would have been great anywhere in any era probably, but after that, IDK.

    (Still on the Verga retirement bandwagon, I suppose).
    Your quoted point is noted, and valid, but is not relevant to the thread title: "The Best Duke Players of the '60's"

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