Fore! The Golf Course Review Thread

[rsvman]

I'll post my brag before DukeTaylor blows all our lists away:

Major Championship Courses
Congressional
Medinah
Ocean Course
Torrey Pines
Pinehurst #2
Columbia CC (1921 US Open, but still counts)

RTJ (Presidents Cup)
Baltimore Country Club (Sr PGA)
Caves Valley (Sr PGA)
Lowes Island (before it was Trump (ie, pre-waterfall) - Sr PGA)

PGA Courses
Bay Hill
TPC Avenel
Seaside (Sea Island, GA)
Tiburon (Naples, FL)
U of Maryland (hosted a Nationwide tour event at one point)

Need to make a trip to Pebble/Spyglass/Spanish Bay, Scotland, Ireland, Bethpage, and of course Augusta and/or Pine Valley if anyone needs a fourth!

Nice list of great courses!

[duketaylor]

Augusta National
Pebble
Spanish Bay
Poppy Hills
Seminole
Bay Hill
PGA National, the Nelson (Championship) Course, I think it's called
Doral (Blue Monster, as a pro in 87, Tour event)
TPC, Eagle Trace (as a pro, Tour event, week after Doral)
The Greenbrier, Nicklaus course, Old White, The Snead
The Homestead
(When I lived in Puerto Rico at ages 13 and 14, playing as an 8th and 9th-grader for Roosevelt Roads High School):
Cerromar
Dorado del Mar
Dorado Beach
Rio Mar
El Conquistador, probably a few others
Copperhead
Mr. Nicklaus' first design, Loxahatchee
In Rumford, RI, Wannamoisette, NE Amateur, Donald Ross, awesome 69-par course.
In Haines City, Fla. East and West courses at Greenelefe, Tour school and NCAA finals
PGA West, Palm Springs, Nicklaus course, finals of tour school
Disney Palm and Magnolia
Maumelle CC, Little Rock, Ark. Long and tough.
The Woodlands, north of Houston, at least 2 courses.
Bethesda CC, Md.
Lowe's Island, now Trump National.
Duke GC is very good.
Pinehurst #2, ACC Tourney with Davis Love, round 2 and 3. He kicked my arse. Played almost every number there.
Hope Valley in Durham, very underrated and tough, Donald Ross!
Lake Geneva GC in Wisconsin, very scenic. Former Playboy Mansion-hate that
Scarlet Course at OSU in Columbus and Sciota CC there (playing with best man at Mr. Nicklaus' wedding).
Bryan Park as a senior at Duke, ACC Tourney.
TPC, Ponte Verde
Sawgrass CC
CC of So. Carolina, also know as Chanticleer, absolutely great course.
Wilmington CC South (Del.)
Mission Inn (Fla.)
Many other Fla. courses
Wolf Creek Lodge in Alberta, Canada
Victoria CC (Vancouver Island, BC) absolutely one of the prettiest courses I've seen.
Check out some of these vistas: https://www.victoriagolf.com/
Many other good courses in Canada which I can't remember their names. (Sorry to our Canadian visitors).
Played in Banff, Calgary, Vancouver, PEI,Ontario, Quebec, Saskatch., everywhere
Oak Tree GC, Edmond, OK, US AM 1984
The Cardinal GC, Greensboro
CCNC, both courses
TPC Avenel

For me, this is just off the top of my head. Where I haven't played and would like:
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Whistling Straits
Torrey Pines
Medinah
Riviera
Spyglass
Cypress Point
many more


I didn't even hit courses in my home state of Virginia.

Played Royal New Kent and Viniterra this week, both good, tough layouts. Like Viniterra much more and is in better shape.
Also, have played Bayville about 4 times, Palmer course at Bay Creek about 5 times, love Farmington in C'ville.

[Tripping William]

F/k/a The Cardinal, this track is now owned and operated by McConnell Golf, which also manages the sister Ross Course (where the ACC was founded and where the PGA's Wyndham Championship is held each August).

With Bermuda fairways and bent grass greens, this course measures 7000 yards from the tips, which is beefy for a par-70 layout. Classic Pete Dye, with railroad tie bulkheads on many of the par-3's and on the par-5 15th. A creek meanders though much of the course, tightening a number of fairways. The trees also do a good job of "framing" the tee shots, often giving an optical illusion that the fairways are tighter than they really are.

A fun mix of really long par-4's (like the 430-yard 10th) and shorter par-4's (e.g., the 280-yard, narrow, uphill 3rd). There is a plaque at the 12th with a Dye quote that it is was hardest par-3 he had ever designed. I believe it, as it can play 210'ish with water up the entire left side, forcing a high draw in order to hold the green.

Definitely one I'd like to revisit.

[Tripping William]

This time it is Golf Advisor's Fifty Toughest Courses, based on reviews submitted by the website's users. Caveat: All of these 50 courses are located in the US, Canada or Ireland, which tells me that Golf Advisor might only permit reviews from those countries. Some courses have cropped up previously in this thread, of course, and the current US Open course is listed pretty high.

Further fodder for discussion.

[kexman]

I have not played many great courses, but I did play Erin Hills a few years ago which seems on topic since the US Open tees off tomorrow. I was a little depressed at the pending 40th birthday so planned a birthday trip to Wisconsin. The course was amazing and really beautiful. I highly endorse the plan of planning a great golf trip to look forward to this date. I absolutely loved the course (and the caddy). After only playing twice that summer, my game was not good, but it was still a great day. The course is really long and it is often a long hike between holes (no golf carts are allowed on the course). It is about an 8-10 mile walk with lots of hills which might wear on the players. The original owner purchased all the properties around the course so you can not see any homes from the course. You imagine that you should see some sheep somewhere on the course. It really is a stunning course. I loved every minute.
The shot I will remember is driving into the green side bunker on the 320 yard 2nd hole. I try to forget the next 3 shots it took to actually get on the green

[rsvman]

This time it is Golf Advisor's Fifty Toughest Courses, based on reviews submitted by the website's users. Caveat: All of these 50 courses are located in the US, Canada or Ireland, which tells me that Golf Advisor might only permit reviews from those countries. Some courses have cropped up previously in this thread, of course, and the current US Open course is listed pretty high.

Further fodder for discussion.

Interesting list. I think it's tough to decide which courses are hardest, because a lot depends on how strong your game is. In general, the course rating reflects how hard the game is for good players, and the slope reflects how hard it is for hackers. Somebody should make separate lists of hardest courses, one for good players and one for hackers. A lot of the same courses would appear on both lists, of course, but the course ratings and slopes don't always track together, so it's not like the list would all be the same.

Three notable omissions from the list, just after a cursory review: 1) Spyglass Hill, 2) Bayonet in Monterey, CA, and 3) Tot Hill farm in NC. I thought it was odd that they put Tobacco Road on the list but not Tot Hill farm, and also that they included Spanish Bay but omitted Spyglass Hill. I think Spyglass and Bayonet are the two hardest courses in the Monterey area; maybe Spanish Bay would be third or fourth.


Follow-up. I just went to the Bayonet web site and found this: "Bayonet, with its narrow playing corridors and steep, penal bunkering, has long been considered the most difficult test of golf on the Monterey Peninsula." Officially, though, the course rating is 74.8 and the slope is 139, so maybe its reputation is that of being harder than it really is. Spyglass Hill, which I think is harder, has a course rating of 75.5 and a slope of 144. (Spanish Bay's official numbers are 74.2 and 142.)

bottom line: Spyglass is the hardest course on the Monterey Peninsula, not Spanish Bay.

[Tripping William]

Interesting list. I think it's tough to decide which courses are hardest, because a lot depends on how strong your game is. In general, the course rating reflects how hard the game is for good players, and the slope reflects how hard it is for hackers. Somebody should make separate lists of hardest courses, one for good players and one for hackers. A lot of the same courses would appear on both lists, of course, but the course ratings and slopes don't always track together, so it's not like the list would all be the same.

Three notable omissions from the list, just after a cursory review: 1) Spyglass Hill, 2) Bayonet in Monterey, CA, and 3) Tot Hill farm in NC. I thought it was odd that they put Tobacco Road on the list but not Tot Hill farm, and also that they included Spanish Bay but omitted Spyglass Hill. I think Spyglass and Bayonet are the two hardest courses in the Monterey area; maybe Spanish Bay would be third or fourth.


Follow-up. I just went to the Bayonet web site and found this: "Bayonet, with its narrow playing corridors and steep, penal bunkering, has long been considered the most difficult test of golf on the Monterey Peninsula." Officially, though, the course rating is 74.8 and the slope is 139, so maybe its reputation is that of being harder than it really is. Spyglass Hill, which I think is harder, has a course rating of 75.5 and a slope of 144. (Spanish Bay's official numbers are 74.2 and 142.)

bottom line: Spyglass is the hardest course on the Monterey Peninsula, not Spanish Bay.

I have no basis on which to comment about the Monterey Peninsula, having not (yet!) played there. I want to re-play both Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Road to make the comparison, but my assessment from having played both a single time is that Tot Hill is slightly more difficult because of the boulders. And I'm surprised that Pinehurst No. 8 is not on the list at all, and floored that Ballyhack is as high as #6. Not that Ballyhack was easy, by any means, but I never would have considered it to be at that level. When the wind is up, for instance, the Ocean Course is much more difficult (and it checked-in at #15).

[rsvman]

I have no basis on which to comment about the Monterey Peninsula, having not (yet!) played there. I want to re-play both Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Road to make the comparison, but my assessment from having played both a single time is that Tot Hill is slightly more difficult because of the boulders. And I'm surprised that Pinehurst No. 8 is not on the list at all, and floored that Ballyhack is as high as #6. Not that Ballyhack was easy, by any means, but I never would have considered it to be at that level. When the wind is up, for instance, the Ocean Course is much more difficult (and it checked-in at #15).

You've got to get out there. I was fortunate enough to live in Carmel for 18 months and in Monterey for 18 months (consecutively; so I stayed in the area for three years). I played a lot of the courses. I was in the Army, and at the time, both Bayonet and Black Horse were owned by the Army, so I played them all the time. Bayonet was BRUTAL. They used to play Q school there. I would go down to watch. On the 14th (or was it the 15th) green, it was not uncommon for 3 out of a foursome of players vying for tour cards to three putt, and I saw several 4-putts. I played Black Horse more, because it wasn't quite as brutal, although it was still plenty difficult. Greens fee was like $8 for either course, though, which was nice.

My dad is good friends with the guy who was the head pro at Poppy Hills (John Geertson, one of the top 50 instructors in America for many, many years), so I got to play that free a few times. Gorgeous course. The American taxpayer paid for me to play Pebble Beach not once, but twice, owing to "declining morale" of the troops at Ford Ord during the slow and drawn-out shut down of the post. Thank you, people of America. I enjoyed it a great deal and it really did boost my morale.

Anyway, make the trip sometime. In the meantime, go to YouTube and type in "Golfholics" and you can vicariously play Pebble Beach and Spyglass Hill, if you have some free time. Be sure to put the videos into full-screen mode for the most enjoyment.

[Tripping William]

Our Duke course is excellent as well (RTJones, redisgned by Rees-I think, or RTJ, Jr.).

Picking up with duketaylor's quote here, because Mrs. Tripping & son gifted me with a combined birthday/Father's Day round there on Sunday. The history of the course can be found here. Rees Jones's re-design was in progress when I arrived in Durham in August 1993, so I had to wait until the course re-opened in the spring of 1994 to play it. I spent many an afternoon there during my remaining time in Durham, as it is a wonderful and affordable amenity for a student who plays golf.

Returning to the track this weekend reminded me what great routing the course has. It is eminently walkable (which, regrettably, is getting more and more rare). A par 72 design, the course is currently in fantastic condition and the greens are rolling really nicely. My only nitpick is that a lot of very recent rain left some of the bunkers holding water and caused the course -- especially the front-nine -- to play a lot longer than the 6,100 yards it measures from the middle (white) tees. From the tips, it plays at 7150.

I'm not sure there really is a "signature" hole. The walk up the 18th fairway (a long par 4 that comes back toward the WaDuke hotel) is visually appealing, and there are a number of places where spring colors from azaleas and dogwoods can be really pretty. If played from the tips, I think the toughest hole is the par-3 12th, with probably 240-degrees' worth of water surrounding the hole, meaning the only place to really miss is long & left (where a bunker also comes into play). The 13th is also a fairly strategic hole, with big hitters able to reach the water hazard down the right side, but with the fairway getting really narrow on the left. And three of the four par-5's (the 7th, 9th, and 11th) all can have a "should I go for it?" facet to them.

All in all, a course worthy of Duke University's commitment to excellence.

[Mal]

A bit different formulation - best courses in each state public and private. Lets see some bragging - who has played what?

Not too much to brag about compared to some here, but nonetheless makes me realize how fortunate I've been:

- Crooked Stick
- Conway Farms
- PGA Nat'l (Bear Trap)
- Medinah
- Kiawah
- Kapalua
- El Cameleon
- Erin Hills
- Hazeltine
- Cog Hill

and a few notable non-tour courses:

- Shoreacres
- not No. 2 Pinehurst
- Old Collier
- Metedeconk
- Bay Harbor
- Heather course at Boyne Highlands
- Valley Club of Montecito

[Channing]

Anyone have a favorite course architect? Personally, I'm a HUGE Seth Raynor fan and love seeing his influence in guys like Dye, Fazio, etc.

[Tripping William]

Anyone have a favorite course architect? Personally, I'm a HUGE Seth Raynor fan and love seeing his influence in guys like Dye, Fazio, etc.

We have had a bit of that discussion in the thread, starting at around Post #14. Always happy to hear about additional designers, though.

[Channing]

Ha! That was a long time ago and I completely forgot. I have gotten older I have really started appreciating golf course architecture than I did in my younger days. I just got invited to play Mountain Lake in Florida and it got me thinking about Raynor again.

[Tripping William]

Don't know if any of the rest of you have frequented a Topgolf facility, but we surprised our now-13-year-old boy with a birthday trip to the newly opened Topgolf in Charlotte on Sunday. We arrived right at 9:00 a.m. (it's opening time), and the line was probably 60 people deep. The lobby stayed packed all day, and it was a ton of fun. Think "computerized driving range on steroids." The food was pretty good, too (pub fare). Our son is already clamoring to go back . . . . .

[diablesseblu]

Am showing my age. I'm a huge fan of two architects-- Tillinghast and Ellis Maples. Have been privileged to play several of their courses. Cannot imagine much better.

[Tripping William]

Am showing my age. I'm a huge fan of two architects-- Tillinghast and Ellis Maples. Have been privileged to play several of their courses. Cannot imagine much better.

To my knowledge, I have not played anything designed by Tillinghast. I think the closest of his courses to where I live is Roanoke Country Club. I have played a number of Ellis Maples designs, and like them a lot. Probably showing my long-in-the-toothness as well . . . .

[Tripping William]

With this course, you sorta/kinda get two architects for the price of one. The front-nine is a Donald Ross design from the 1930s. Pretty classic Ross, too: Small'ish greens with interesting undulation to them, false fronts, drop-offs behind the green, use of elevation change to add complexity, and the like.

The back-nine is a Tom Jackson design from the 1970s. A rather different feel. More use of dog-legging, a bit more length, and much flatter greens complexes.

A par 72, the tips play at approximately 6800 yards, so manageable in length. The greens were in good shape, if a bit slow for championship Bermuda. The one odd feature: The driving range is more-or-less "off-site." You can get to it in a cart from the clubhouse, but it's nearly a mile away, and very, very separate from the playing area. So, the whole facility is just kind of cobbled together.

In any event, Monroe is not a terribly accessible place, but this is worth playing if one happens to be in the vicinity.

[Tripping William]

It's not Pinehurst (really, what is?), but within about five miles of one another along the borders of Forsyth, Davie, and Davidson Counties are a half-dozen very good golf courses. You have the two Tanglewood courses (Robert Trent Jones designs), the two Bermuda Run courses (one by Ellis Maples, the other by his son, Dan), the Nicklaus/Day design at Salem Glen, and the Arnold Palmer-designed course at Oak Valley. All very solid tracks at reasonable prices.

Oak Valley opened in the late 1990s, with a residential development around it. It has matured nicely except for one thing: The bunkers historically have not drained very well. They have recently been renovated, though, and are in much better shape. The course play to a traditional par 72 (36-36, with a pair of par-5's and a pair of par-3's on each side). There is not real signature feature per se, but you do have to maneuver around some water, and some doglegging, and some strategically placed traps, and (this time of year) some significant rough in spots. The par-4 third hole is, for me, one of the more difficult par-4's I have encountered, especially from the longer tees. It is a long hole, with major trouble left, and a water hazard down the right side that then sweeps around to front the green. You almost inevitably have a long iron approach, but the green has a ridge in it that makes it tough to hold and to putt. The two dogleg-left holes on the back (13 and 14) aren't a walk in the park, either.

The King's contribution to Davie County is much appreciated.

[rsvman]

Cape May National Golf Club, Cape May, NJ

My wife had the idea to go to Cape May for about 5 days around the 4th of July. That gave me the opportunity to play this beautiful golf course on July 5th.

I played the white tees (6063 yards, rating 69.0, slope 125) and it was plenty challenging. The beauty of the course is that it is right next to a bird sanctuary and that there are zero houses anywhere near it. So you are seemingly in the middle of golf heaven, with lots of gorgeous shore birds around.

Plenty of trouble on the course in the form of water, long forced carries (the 4th hole requires an almost-200 yard carry even from the white tees), hard doglegs, and interesting mounded greens that played quite fast. The rough near the greens was particularly thick, requiring some in our foursome 3 or more tries to get out of, so accuracy with the irons was strongly rewarded.

I was hitting the ball quite well except for my driver; settled for the 3-wood at a certain point on the back nine and it put me in better stead.

Interestingly, as luck would have it I got paired with three strangers to me; I learned on the first tee from one of them that it was only his second round of the year. I expected him to be bad but he was really, really good. Missed only one fairway all day and maybe 3 or 4 greens. Come to find out that guy used to be a pro and had a +3 handicap. He ruined his rotator cuff and lost a lot of his distance, but the guy could just flat-out strike the ball.

Overall, a very nice golf course and worthy of a round if you find yourself in the lower Jersey Shore area.

[Tripping William]

I recently returned from a trip out West, and we hauled clubs. We only played 18 holes (a round at each of Bear Lake's two nine-hole courses), and also hit some balls at what might be the most scenic driving range on earth.

First, the driving range. Jackson Hole Golf & Tennis Club sits at the south end of Jackson Hole, right at the base of the Tetons and just outside of Grand Teton National Park. Their practice facility has you hitting balls directly toward those mountains. It's fabulous. You get to decide which mountain peak will be your target. Just gorgeous. We did not have time to play the course, but it looked fantastic as well. Originally designed by Bob Baldock, Robert Trent Jones Jr. did re-design work on it in the 1970's and mid-2000's. Looked like a great track.

Bear Lake West sits just on the Idaho side of the border, in Fish Haven, ID. It's only nine holes, but it's probably as scenic a nine-holer as you'll ever find. The views out to Bear Lake are stunning. Beware, though: This is a ball-eater of a course. The fairways are narrow, and shots hit off-line either get eaten by the marshy water hazards or be extremely thick fescue-like grass off the fairways. Of the nine holes, there are three par-3's, so don't let the total distance of 2,700 yards fool you. This course isn't nearly as short as the scorecard might indicate.

Bear Lake Golf Course is on the Utah side, at the south end of the lake, in Garden City, UT. It is the older of the two nine-hole courses, and quite a bit more forgiving in its layout. Nice elevation changes, and its driving range faces out to Bear Lake as well, but the views are not as impressive as at West. It plays to a standard set of two par 5's (of manageable length), two par 3's, and five par 4's. A fun way to spend a couple of hours when visiting the Caribbean of the Rockies.

I'll also add that the views from TopGolf in Metro Salt Lake City (Midvale, actually, near 72nd South) are also fantastic. Much better than at the facility in Charlotte.