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  1. #41
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    Fair points. Thanks for the background.

    I don't know about the bolded though. Sure, the finals would be epic. But that's a few games over the course of a very long season. And they'd have to get there. If Lebron got knocked out, it has the potential to be a snooze-fest.

    And how many other games would be snooze-fests? How many fourth quarters would the Warriors have their C-Team on the court? How many games would they potentially rest a star player in order to win the Finals that they lost the year prior by going all out for the regular season record? Take one of the best players on the planet off the (by far) 3rd best team in the regular season last year (compounded if Duncan retires), how does the west look then? GSW and who else? Is there any drama at all?

    A lot of hypotheticals obviously, but I think it's not as clear-cut that Durant to GSW would be an NBA boon, all things considered.

    - Chillin
    I'm doubtful of the connection you're positing in bold, especially since if Draymond doesn't get suckered by Lebron into a suspension, GSW probably wins in 5. (Additionally, if Kerr had played his centers less, if Curry hadn't gotten injured, etc -- I could think of about ten reasons for GSW's loss that are more persuasive than going for the regular season record, imo.)

    That said, I do agree with you that GSW would probably do a lot more resting of their stars next season if Durant comes. In most games, they would only need 3 out of the 4 stars (Curry, Durant, Green, Thompson) to play to win, so being a creative bunch over there, I could see them devising some resting schedule where each of the 4 stars only ends up playing 70-75 games, for example.

  2. #42
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    Oct 2013
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    Dallas, TX
    A little off topic, but something I heard via Brian Windhorst related to Bron's verbal missteps: It was Klay Thompson's somewhat innocuous quote "We would beat the showtime Lakers," and not anything having to do with Draymond or anything else that got the Cavs fired up and motivated for games 5, 6, and 7. Amazing what a joke (I assume Klay was just throwing a shot at his own dad) in a post-game presser can do to change a series.

  3. #43
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    May 2010
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    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    If Durant ever joined them, it would change the whole feel of the organization. especially since if Draymond doesn't get suckered by Lebron into a suspension, GSW probably wins in 5. (Additionally, if Kerr had played his centers less, if Curry hadn't gotten injured, etc -- I could think of about ten reasons for GSW's loss that are more persuasive than going for the regular season record, imo.)

    That said, I do agree with you that GSW would probably do a lot more resting of their stars next season if Durant comes. In most games, they would only need 3 out of the 4 stars (Curry, Durant, Green, Thompson) to play to win, so being a creative bunch over there, I could see them devising some resting schedule where each of the 4 stars only ends up playing 70-75 games, for example.
    I agree with you. But it's a line the media could draw and probably would draw at some point. Especially if Durant ended up joining.

    The point is it's going to be a redemption story next year for GSW. And the "best ever regular season" to "losing Game 7" storyline will follow them all year. So they are going to go to great lengths, I suspect, to maximize their chances of retaking the title. Which includes resting players more than they did this year, methinks. Potentially a lot more. And potentially a lot lot more if Durant joins.

    - Chillin
    Last edited by ChillinDuke; 06-22-2016 at 01:46 PM. Reason: ETA

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Durant and GS

    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    How much does GSW need Durant? He needs a lot of shots and would not get it there. Is it not hard for a high volume, rhythm shooter to excel with a lot of shots?

    If GSW could just keep their team intact at a reasonable price, that is a better outcome than adding Durant and upsetting the rhythm/flow/happiness of what they have.

    Or am I high on coco puffs and you'd risk that to add a top 5 player?
    Statistical analysis of why Durant wouldn't be a great fit on the Warriors. (So I hope they sign him!)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-kevin-durant/

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Seattle
    Trades!

    Pacers send George Hill to Utah
    Utah sends the No.12 pick to Atlanta
    Atlanta sends Jeff Teague to the Pacers

    As a Pacers fan this is meh. George Hill is an outstanding defensive player and is a quality long-range shooter. Never been big on Teague. I really wanted Conley

    Knicks are apparently sending Rose and some pieces for Lopez and some pieces.

  6. #46
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    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Rose trade confirmed . . . not sure this really moves the needle for either team.

  7. #47
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Rose trade confirmed . . . not sure this really moves the needle for either team.
    The trade is an acknowledgement of moving on from the Thibsbulls (i.e., Rose), while hoping to get a player on the rise (Grant). I think we'll also see a trade of Gibson as well, with Lopez assuming the interior defender role and allowing Mirotic and Portis to be the offensive-minded bigs.

    Rose was a big contract who unfortunately has been below replacement level for the last couple of years, and wasn't a good fit with Butler (neither can shoot well and both are ball-dominant guards). So the team is committing to building around Butler. If Grant turns out not to be of value, then, yeah it is a "meh" move. And if the Bulls hang on to Gibson and let him walk in free agency, then this move still looks weird. But Lopez will essentially replace what Noah/Gibson provide (at a reasonable price) and you cede the team to Butler moving forward (instead of having the awkward Rose/Noah faction and Butler faction).

    Honestly, there wasn't much the Bulls could do to move the needle. This was about the best they could get. The Knicks will hope that Rose can rebound to old form, and if so they win the deal. The Bulls hope that Grant will emerge with opportunity, and if so they can win the deal.

  8. #48
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by luburch View Post
    Trades!

    Pacers send George Hill to Utah
    Utah sends the No.12 pick to Atlanta
    Atlanta sends Jeff Teague to the Pacers

    As a Pacers fan this is meh. George Hill is an outstanding defensive player and is a quality long-range shooter. Never been big on Teague. I really wanted Conley

    Knicks are apparently sending Rose and some pieces for Lopez and some pieces.
    Well that kills my Utah Jazz prediction of a 1st round PG pick in the mock draft.

  9. #49
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    Jan 2009
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    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The trade is an acknowledgement of moving on from the Thibsbulls (i.e., Rose), while hoping to get a player on the rise (Grant). I think we'll also see a trade of Gibson as well, with Lopez assuming the interior defender role and allowing Mirotic and Portis to be the offensive-minded bigs.

    Rose was a big contract who unfortunately has been below replacement level for the last couple of years, and wasn't a good fit with Butler (neither can shoot well and both are ball-dominant guards). So the team is committing to building around Butler. If Grant turns out not to be of value, then, yeah it is a "meh" move. And if the Bulls hang on to Gibson and let him walk in free agency, then this move still looks weird. But Lopez will essentially replace what Noah/Gibson provide (at a reasonable price) and you cede the team to Butler moving forward (instead of having the awkward Rose/Noah faction and Butler faction).

    Honestly, there wasn't much the Bulls could do to move the needle. This was about the best they could get. The Knicks will hope that Rose can rebound to old form, and if so they win the deal. The Bulls hope that Grant will emerge with opportunity, and if so they can win the deal.
    Excellent trade by the Bulls. Rose has <1% of gaining his elite athleticism back, and that is what made him great. Without it, he's a poor shooting, mediocre playmaking PG. Not exactly the kind of PG you want on your team.

    As for the Knicks, well, I don't know what to say. Seems like they have cap space and said, "We need to pay luxury tax next year. How do we do that while killing our cap?"
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  10. #50
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    Oct 2013
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    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Excellent trade by the Bulls. Rose has <1% of gaining his elite athleticism back, and that is what made him great. Without it, he's a poor shooting, mediocre playmaking PG. Not exactly the kind of PG you want on your team.

    As for the Knicks, well, I don't know what to say. Seems like they have cap space and said, "We need to pay luxury tax next year. How do we do that while killing our cap?"
    IMO, Rose didn't lose his athleticism. He's still got much of it intact, but he lost his fearlessness going to the rim. That's what really made him great. Without it, he's just another guy in the NBA who can't really shoot. I guess the Knicks are hoping he gets that back somehow. Who knows? It could happen.

  11. #51
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    Jan 2009
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    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    IMO, Rose didn't lose his athleticism. He's still got much of it intact, but he lost his fearlessness going to the rim. That's what really made him great. Without it, he's just another guy in the NBA. I guess the Knicks are hoping he gets that back somehow. Who knows? It could happen.
    I disagree. He's slower, less agile, and can't jump as high. Confidence is certainly an issue, but I even think confidence at 100% gets you 80% of vintage Rose. Right now, he's closer of 50% of vintage Rose.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  12. #52
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Excellent trade by the Bulls. Rose has <1% of gaining his elite athleticism back, and that is what made him great. Without it, he's a poor shooting, mediocre playmaking PG. Not exactly the kind of PG you want on your team.

    As for the Knicks, well, I don't know what to say. Seems like they have cap space and said, "We need to pay luxury tax next year. How do we do that while killing our cap?"
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    IMO, Rose didn't lose his athleticism. He's still got much of it intact, but he lost his fearlessness going to the rim. That's what really made him great. Without it, he's just another guy in the NBA who can't really shoot. I guess the Knicks are hoping he gets that back somehow. Who knows? It could happen.
    I think Rose lost a LITTLE bit of the athleticism, especially the leaping ability. He still is very quick, but he doesn't have quite the same bounciness or top-end vertical anymore. He is still plenty athletic to be an effective player, just not as effective but effective as before. But I absolutely agree that I think the biggest problem for Rose is that he lost his edge. He's still a very good athlete and occasionally you see the flashes of it. But he doesn't go hard to the rim anymore, and that was what made him great. It is how he drew fouls and got free points. It is how he scored baskets. It is how he intimidated defenses. He doesn't have the game to not be attacking the rim.

    His game was always likely to age poorly, but the injuries and the corresponding fear that he's developed have expedited the decline.

    I agree that the trade was probably a best-case scenario for the Bulls. They get a legitimate starting center (and one who plays defense!) and a prospect. And they still have flexibility to go after free agents this summer and next. And maybe Grant develops into a playmaking combo guard with time and experience and playing in a more open offense.

    I get the move by the Knicks too. Take the gamble that Rose just needed a change of scenery. If it works, it's a steal. If it doesn't, well, you didn't lose a ton anyway. Heck, they can probably get a not-too-awful facsimile of Lopez in Joakim Noah.

  13. #53
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    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I disagree. He's slower, less agile, and can't jump as high. Confidence is certainly an issue, but I even think confidence at 100% gets you 80% of vintage Rose. Right now, he's closer of 50% of vintage Rose.
    I just don't see this. He is still one of the lost athletic pgs in the NBA and top 10 pg when healthy. The Knicks just got better. Not sure about the Bulls
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  14. #54
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    I just don't see this. He is still one of the lost athletic pgs in the NBA and top 10 pg when healthy. The Knicks just got better. Not sure about the Bulls
    He really hasn't been remotely close to a top-10 PG in years, though. The last two years he has been below replacement level.

    There are moments when he does Rose-like things, but he has been just awful the last two years. Maybe he regains that form again with a change of scenery. Personally, I doubt it, as I think he is just too far removed from his greatness to regain it. But it almost certainly wasn't going to happen in Chicago.

    The Bulls instead get a starting C at what is going to be a discount and a prospect combo guard in Grant. And they start the restructuring around Butler. Looked at another way, they got a first round pick and three years of a starting C for a guy that they were not going to resign after next season. It is a surprisingly proactive Bulls move.

  15. #55
    I get the value in lopez (though i don't mind the Knicks getting more cap space for the next two years) but Jerian Grant didn't get slighted on opportunity in NY, they wanted to give him more minutes, he just stunk. Maybe he gets better but I wouldn't label him as promising at this point, watched him too much last year look lost, clueless, and over his head against 2nd units.

  16. #56
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Forest Hills, NY
    As a lifelong Knicks fan, I'm not sure about this deal. But we now have a "big 3" and Rose doesn't have to do as much with Mwlo and KP6. And all the local papers are stressing how good Hornacek is with a guard-oriented offense.

    Grant was up and down this year. Potential, but who knows. I really liked Robin. Showed way more offense than most thought he had. And brought an interior toughness to the team.

    We stunk last year...are we a bit better now? Maybe. But worth the gamble I think.

  17. #57
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by duke74 View Post
    As a lifelong Knicks fan, I'm not sure about this deal. But we now have a "big 3" and Rose doesn't have to do as much with Mwlo and KP6. And all the local papers are stressing how good Hornacek is with a guard-oriented offense.

    Grant was up and down this year. Potential, but who knows. I really liked Robin. Showed way more offense than most thought he had. And brought an interior toughness to the team.

    We stunk last year...are we a bit better now? Maybe. But worth the gamble I think.
    I think it is one of those trades that makes sense for both teams.

    The Knicks needed a star to pair with Melo, and stars are hard to come by when you are short on assets. So they are taking a relatively low-cost gamble that Rose can be that star again, or at least close to it. My guess is that they will try to sign Joakim Noah to do the dirty work that Lopez did. With Melo, Rose, and Prozingis, Noah will happily not shoot. And they made a trade that is roughly cost-neutral next year and is cost-saving thereafter unless they resign Rose.

    For the Bulls, it seems like Butler and Rose were incompatible as a pairing. So they stuck with the better player, and also the guy who is signed longer. The team also wasn't likely going to compete this year, and were almost certainly not resigning Rose next summer. So they got a starting center (they were losing both centers this summer) on a nice contract for the next three years and a former first round pick as well. Who knows if Grant pans out, but getting a starting center on a reasonable deal for a possibly broken player who wasn't in the plans makes sense.

    But teams took steps towards changing their team's fortunes. It may or may not work out, but I think the deal makes sense for both sides.

  18. #58
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think it is one of those trades that makes sense for both teams.

    The Knicks needed a star to pair with Melo, and stars are hard to come by when you are short on assets. So they are taking a relatively low-cost gamble that Rose can be that star again, or at least close to it. My guess is that they will try to sign Joakim Noah to do the dirty work that Lopez did. With Melo, Rose, and Prozingis, Noah will happily not shoot. And they made a trade that is roughly cost-neutral next year and is cost-saving thereafter unless they resign Rose.

    For the Bulls, it seems like Butler and Rose were incompatible as a pairing. So they stuck with the better player, and also the guy who is signed longer. The team also wasn't likely going to compete this year, and were almost certainly not resigning Rose next summer. So they got a starting center (they were losing both centers this summer) on a nice contract for the next three years and a former first round pick as well. Who knows if Grant pans out, but getting a starting center on a reasonable deal for a possibly broken player who wasn't in the plans makes sense.

    But teams took steps towards changing their team's fortunes. It may or may not work out, but I think the deal makes sense for both sides.
    In addition to getting a potentially great PG (if Rose stays healthy and can return to just 80% of his old form), the Knicks generate excitement, sell season tickets (average fan will remember old Tose), as well as making NY a more attractive destination for free agents. I doubt the Knicks are done with moves.

  19. #59
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    Nov 2013
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    The Northwest
    I don't understand at all how anyone could think Teague or Hill is on par with a #12 overall pick.

    The Knicks-Bulls trade looks like a lot of bells and whistles that will end up meaning nothing.

  20. #60
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Forest Hills, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    In addition to getting a potentially great PG (if Rose stays healthy and can return to just 80% of his old form), the Knicks generate excitement, sell season tickets (average fan will remember old Tose), as well as making NY a more attractive destination for free agents. I doubt the Knicks are done with moves.
    With Affalo and Williams opting out, and a lot of cap space, completely agree.

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