unCHEATs Justin Jackson To Return For Jr Season

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'll be the first to admit that Roy was super successful today and that the recruiting players for four years (a la Nova and UVa) is incredibly successful. But Wheat - who I normally support - seems to think that Roy would rather have it this way and that it leads to players thriving in the NBA. Rather, it's that a) Roy can't get OADs anymore despite trying really hard and b) his players get better but rarely get better to be impactful in the NBA.

And now, with good talent next year and arguably not so good talent the year after, UNC will continue this false narrative of "Roy likes to build programs and players rather than renting OADs" nonsense.

Which, sounds quite similar to what Duke fans said, pre-Kyrie/Austin/Jabari, et al.

[jipops]

How many of those players you mention rush to the NBA and flame out when they could have been better prepared for a long career?

It's about how a coach chooses to run a program. His program. UNC is not focused on the one and done mentality. It's fine if other schools want to, but it's not they way Roy wants to do it. He has remained competitive doing it his way, so why not just live with it?

You have made some reasonable counter-arguments in your array of posts to the "axe-grinders", but this one is a total load of garbage. Just because Roy didn't land all the guys he wanted (likely due to the scandal) doesn't mean he didn't want them in the first place.

Roy, like every other major program coach, first and foremost wants to win. Period. That pretty much means going after the best available talent on the recruiting trail. Roy is not withholding a recruiting offer to a kid just because he might be too talented to stay more than one year. If you think that is true you are deluding yourself.

He has remained competitive by continuing to have very talented players that have the advantage of experience. It also helps to have college tweeners who are exceptionally talented at the college level yet are either too small or slow for their corresponding position at the next level. This is the type of benefit Duke reaped in 2010.

But, puhlease. Don't pretend there is some sort of righteousness in Roy's methods.

[MChambers]

It is curious the everyone seems to be piling on Roy's ineffective system when you were one miracle shot away from a national championship.

One great shot (not a miracle) away from overtime. Game was tied.

[jipops]

It is curious the everyone seems to be piling on Roy's ineffective system when you were one miracle shot away from a national championship.

Yea, no kidding. If that shot doesn't go down and the cheats win in overtime, then a lot of people would have been forced to come up with different narratives. He still wins and he continues to have very talented teams with experience. He's not doing anything special compared to other coaches and he's not failing in ways that other coaches aren't (other than off the court stuff and the scandal of course). There is likely a large pool of major program coaches who could be plugged in to Roy's role and produce similar results. Likewise, you can plug Roy in to UK or Duke (nausea rising, the HORROR!!!) and the W/L results wouldn't change much from what we see today, despite changes in philosophy and offensive approach.

[DukieInBrasil]

Yes, and they all prove my point. I don't think they've underperformed at all. Just done about what was reasonably expected of them as professionals.

None of the guys you mention are exceptionally talented NBA players, never were, just very solid, and they were well prepared by Roy to have long blue collar careers.

You might think "they were right all along" with a OAD approach...I don't happen to agree.

McAdoo is barely an NBA player, hardly plays at all. Mega-talented physically but not all that good as an NBA level player.
Hansbrough is the all-time ACC scoring leader (overtaking JJ Redick), and is a reasonable sub (while JJ is a starter on a playoff team).
Marshall was brilliant at UNC largely b/c he played with some good college players and in the NBA is a moderately useful reserve.
Zeller was always highly regarded as a prospect had a great career at UNC and is a useful bench player.
Bullock leveraged a couple of excellent years at UNC into the NBA draft and is a marginally useful bench player.

Which of them is accomplishing what was reasonably expected of them in the NBA?
McAdoo and Marshall probably, but not if you compare that expectation with their pre-UNC laurels or even with their UNC performance.
Bullock was drafted in the 1st round, i would say being buried on the bench averaging 3ppg is not living up to expectations.
The all-time leading scorer in ACC history has never been a starter for a full season but has had a solid, lucrative NBA career, as a mid-level backup player.
Zeller is the only one of the bunch i would say comes even close to your standard: a 1st round pick, was a starter for much of one season, and is a +bench player.

[PackMan97]

Yea, no kidding. If that shot doesn't go down and the cheats win in overtime, then a lot of people would have been forced to come up with different narratives.

I need no other narrative other than UNC is the biggest cheater in the history of college basketball*

*modern era

[jacone21]

I need no other narrative other than UNC is the biggest cheater in the history of college basketball*

*modern era

Agreed. My feelings are summed up perfectly in devildeac's sig line, which reads,

"[redacted] them and the horses they rode in on."

[jv001]

One great shot (not a miracle) away from overtime. Game was tied.

Paige's shot was more of a miracle in my eyes . That's the shot that tied the game. GoDuke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You have made some reasonable counter-arguments in your array of posts to the "axe-grinders", but this one is a total load of garbage. Just because Roy didn't land all the guys he wanted (likely due to the scandal) doesn't mean he didn't want them in the first place...

But, puhlease. Don't pretend there is some sort of righteousness in Roy's methods.

Where did I ever say Roy didn't want them in the first place? (OAD's he recruited).

Of course he did, he recruited them. But he also makes it clear to them their role and how they will play in his system. He's a system coach and wants players to fit that system, the more talented players he can get, the better. But he will run his system. It's his way, and I'm not trying to claim it's any better or worse than any other way.

Boheim at Syracuse is the same way. Self too, and even Pitino looks for players to fit specific notions what he wants them to be able to do.

Coach K and Calipari for example, are more interested in getting the top talents and then coach to the players strengths more so over a system. That's fine and its successful too. The sure fire OAD's like that these days because they know their strengths will be showcased for their one year.

It's all good. There's no need no need for people to trash Roy just because he's taking a different path than coach K to successfully coach his team.

[weezie]

One great shot (not a miracle) away from overtime. Game was tied.

Soooo close, yet so verrrrry far away...

[jipops]

I need no other narrative other than UNC is the biggest cheater in the history of college basketball*

*modern era

That may be more fact than narrative.

[jipops]

Where did I ever say Roy didn't want them in the first place? (OAD's he recruited).

Of course he did, he recruited them. But he also makes it clear to them their role and how they will play in his system. He's a system coach and wants players to fit that system, the more talented players he can get, the better. But he will run his system. It's his way, and I'm not trying to claim it's any better or worse than any other way.

Boheim at Syracuse is the same way. Self too, and even Pitino looks for players to fit specific notions what he wants them to be able to do.

Coach K and Calipari for example, are more interested in getting the top talents and then coach to the players strengths more so over a system. That's fine and its successful too. The sure fire OAD's like that these days because they know their strengths will be showcased for their one year.

It's all good. There's no need no need for people to trash Roy just because he's taking a different path than coach K to successfully coach his team.

Nice course correction there.

I think there are other reasons for fans to trash Roy that don't have anything to do with his on-court coaching philosophy. And you shouldn't be remotely surprised at a Duke fan board trashing him, even one as above grade as this one.

I personally don't feel like K and Roy are trying to build their teams as differently as you and others on this board let on. But yes, there are of course nuanced differences. Neither one is wrong and neither has anything to do with determining how a kid is going to get drafted.

[CarmenWallaceWade]

ESPN 2014 recruit rankings. Interesting when you look at how many of the top 20 are still playing in college. I'm sure Jackson, Pinson and Berry all value their college experience and team basketball more than a lucrative NBA contract, because obviously UNC's program has already developed them to make the leap.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/ba...014/order/true

[UrinalCake]

Interesting quote but it does nothing to dispel my opinion on this. The quote does not say he is the same player as a freshman because he is at unc. It's just that he is.

How about this one:

He kind of became one-dimensional at North Carolina. I'm not a Hall of Fame coach, but I think a lot of his offensive instincts got suppressed within that system, or within his head. He just wasn't the same guy.

Said an ACC coach: "I think he's a good shooter. Their system is so different. Everything they do is a little bit different. A lot doesn't translate from their system to the NBA, other than they learn to play with other good players."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/dav...aft/index.html

[oldnavy]

I think Roy is a college coach, not and NBA coach.
He wants players that he can win games with in college and enjoy coaching, ones that will accept his teachings to become better players. And he wants to prepare them for the future.
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for players who want a different approach than the system Roy has in place.

When Roy's players get to the NBA they are prepared for whatever system the NBA coach has.

So the closest thing you have said that remotely looks like an answer to the question is that Roy is a college coach and not an NBA coach.

I realize that most of us didn't go to UNC, but I think we had that one figured out already, but thanks for clearing it up for us internet idiots.

Based on your defense, one has to assume that you feel that the players at UNC although rated as high or higher than players at other colleges choose to stay in college longer than their peers to become better prepared for the future and better teammates for their future NBA teams.

This fits with what we on the outside of the UNC fandom like to call the UNC BS. Basically what you are saying is UNC players and their system just have higher goals and more lofty ambitions than the rest of the BB world... news flash, this is the same old crap that has been coming out of CH for decades, most of us weren't buying it then and we sure as hell aren't buying it now!

UNC's system which includes Dean, and Roy (forget the other two, nobody care about them) designed a way to keep students OUT of class rooms and away from any real preparation for the future for the sole purpose of producing winning BB teams. They either endorsed the cheating or at the minimum looked the other way. I'll go with the former.

So, forgive us if we laugh at your attempt to place UNC back up on that pedestal... that ship has sailed, never to return. But you conveniently like to dodge that issue despite it being of supreme importance in any discussion of the UNC system.

Oh, and I am happy with how Roy is running his system and the players he recruits... they are "just" good enough to keep hope alive and produce one FF team in what was a very down year in men's college basketball. Roy was voted most overrated coach by his peers for a reason...

Jimmy Valvano told a funny story about his barber commenting on "what Dean Smith could have done with Norm Sloan's two teams that went 50 something and 1 and won a NC"...

My question would be... imagine what Jimmy Valvano could have done with the talent that has run through CH in the past 8 years?

I will give you loyalty points though. I know a TON of UNC fans and not a single one I have spoken to in the past several years has anywhere near the level of respect for Roy that you do. I have actually wondered at times if you are a close relative of his, seriously.

You are a very, very good fan.

[elvis14]

It is curious the everyone seems to be piling on Roy's ineffective system when you were one miracle shot away from a national championship.

Going into last year, you could look at all the top programs, like Duke and UK, and see two things: first the better teams lost lots of guys to the draft or as seniors and second, there weren't any great teams in CBB. As the year played on we saw an unprecedented number of losses by top ranked teams. Why? Because there weren't any great teams. So yes, the cheaters did make it to the finals. But they weren't a great team, just an experienced team in the right place at the right time. And with the loss of Paige and Johnson, and continued 2nd rate recruiting they will be worse this year and even worse the year after.

Note, UNCheat will be pretty good next season. After that their recruiting misses will start to catch up with them as they take on the mid-major model of a team that's good every couple of years as their better players become seniors and they have men playing against kids. Sadly, it appears that the toothless, gutless NCAA is going to let them skate on 20+ years of cheating so we won't see the appropriate loss of scholarships or post seasons bans (or vacated, ill begotten wins). 9F, cheaters!

Back in the day, Cheater fans accused Coach K of only caring about Duke winning and that's why he 'made' players stay additional years. Now Cheater fans accuse Coach K of only caring about Duke winning and that's why he does the OAD. Whatever.

[tux]

Every college coach would happily take the very best players every year (if they qualify academically -- and many would be more than happy to find a way to still take them). But there's no reason to spend a ton of time, energy, and resources recruiting top-20 talent if the probability is very low of getting a commitment. Duke, UK, Kansas, Michigan St, and UNC (until the scandal) were more than happy competing for that top-20 (or top-10) talent. Beyond that, I'm sure coaches also evaluate players on overall fit (and need), and also decide how likely they are to get a commitment.

When teams start losing out on OAD talent (like UNC), their fans start to claim that's all just part of some master plan. When teams start getting more OAD talent that leaves early, their fans of course claim that's all just part of some master plan. It's an ongoing propaganda war among fan bases, more than a reflection of the coaches. They absolutely want the best talent, b/c that's how you win consistently and win big. And it turns out that winning consistently and winning big is good for a coach's career and bank account...

[sammy3469]

Just to add some fuel to the argument, here's the draftexpress write-up on Marcus Paige. It's sort of gotten lost in the last couple of pages, but one of the initial criticisms of Roy was that his guys don't develop physically. Seems like that problem afflicts Paige as well.

Paige isn't an exceptional athlete and his measurables are average for a NBA guard, so he will have to prove he is skilled enough to impact the game on a regular basis against more physically gifted players. He was last measured at 6'2”, (albeit with a solid 6'6” wingspan) and still possesses a narrow 164 pound frame which hasn't added much weight since our first measurement back in 2011 (156 pounds).

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...g-Report-5490/

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Going into last year, you could look at all the top programs, like Duke and UK, and see two things: first the better teams lost lots of guys to the draft or as seniors and second, there weren't any great teams in CBB. As the year played on we saw an unprecedented number of losses by top ranked teams. Why? Because there weren't any great teams. So yes, the cheaters did make it to the finals. But they weren't a great team, just an experienced team in the right place at the right time. And with the loss of Paige and Johnson, and continued 2nd rate recruiting they will be worse this year and even worse the year after.

Note, UNCheat will be pretty good next season. After that their recruiting misses will start to catch up with them as they take on the mid-major model of a team that's good every couple of years as their better players become seniors and they have men playing against kids. Sadly, it appears that the toothless, gutless NCAA is going to let them skate on 20+ years of cheating so we won't see the appropriate loss of scholarships or post seasons bans (or vacated, ill begotten wins). 9F, cheaters!

Back in the day, Cheater fans accused Coach K of only caring about Duke winning and that's why he 'made' players stay additional years. Now Cheater fans accuse Coach K of only caring about Duke winning and that's why he does the OAD. Whatever.

This is precisely my point. I'm certainly not defending Roy's coaching or development of players. I'm just noting that since we and the Holes fans have conveniently flipflopped our narratives on one-and-dones v. player development that it doesn't really ring true for either fan base. How about Grayson Allen? Is he a talent that K has failed to develop properly? Or is he a "Duke guy" who loves being in school and understands the value of an education? How about Marcus Paige? Did Roy fail to advise him properly to go pro a few years ago, or does he just value academics and loves the college life?

Toe-May-Toe, Toe-Mah-Toe.

It's fun to poke at Roy and his refusal to use timeouts or make in game adjustments, but saying UNC was within a shot of a natty only because it was a down year just sounds silly.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This is precisely my point. I'm certainly not defending Roy's coaching or development of players. I'm just noting that since we and the Holes fans have conveniently flipflopped our narratives on one-and-dones v. player development that it doesn't really ring true for either fan base. How about Grayson Allen? Is he a talent that K has failed to develop properly? Or is he a "Duke guy" who loves being in school and understands the value of an education? How about Marcus Paige? Did Roy fail to advise him properly to go pro a few years ago, or does he just value academics and loves the college life?

Mtn Devil, we are on the same page (and maybe the same Paige as well). Narratives have definitely changed. But what makes me upset is the denial from fans.

UNC fans: admit that while your model works, it only works because you can't get OADs. Furthermore, you have a poor track record of getting players to the NBA who are either highly-ranked recruits or performed well in college.