unCHEATs Justin Jackson To Return For Jr Season

[oldnavy]

Here's my bolded response...

Again, you are not addressing the primary question.

Why are players of similar rankings at various different programs going to the NBA sooner than players that attend UNC?

One theory is that they progress slower at UNC... I know you disagree with that, but how do you explain the statistical differences? You say I'm wrong, but then refer to an unrelated stat to support your argument.

Surely you understand the difference between, total number of players in the NBA and the question of when those players leave college to get to the NBA, and that is the question you do not even attempt to answer.

Why do players with similar rankings at other schools get drafted earlier than UNC players? What is your theory or explanation? Is it as simple as they love UNC so much they choose to forego the draft??? That answer would at least be relevant.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Many people thought that Kinston kid Brandon Ingram would attend UNC instead of Duke. It would be interesting to take a peek at the alternate reality where that played out.

My take: Brandon started at the 2 at UNC and spent a lot of time making entry passes into Brice, Meeks, and Hicks. UNC fans are excited about the flashes of talent that Brandon displayed and hope that with an expanded role his sophomore season, he can make 3rd-team ACC and be a great complement to star big man and Senior Isaiah Hicks. And then, UNC fans believe Brandon will really take off his junior year to become 1st-team ACC after having spent 3 years building up strength on that wiry body. Under Roy and his strength and conditioning staff, UNC fans have complete confidence that Brandon will make the aforementioned amazing strides from freshman to junior years. Brandon will then leave for the draft after his junior year to become a late lottery pick. Afterall, Roy encourages his players to leave when it's time, unlike Rat-face K in Durham.

And scene. LOL - that's exactly how Brandon's career at UNC would've played out, right? I can't even find a counterargument.

Ingram is a really unique talent, at least to me. I think he's the best player to come along since Anthony Davis.
Duke was a better fit for him for his obvious one year in college, and I had no problem with that. I don't know why it always seems to be a mark against one school or the other when a kid chooses the best situation for them.

[oldnavy]

I think UNC's philosophy is to play system/team basketball first, (as opposed to highlighting an individual player) no matter a players talent level. And to prepare players for the long term, not just "get them to the league" as fast as possible. And that's a reason some players go elsewhere.

It's an instant gratification society we have these days, and I like that Roy and UNC steadfastly look at the bigger picture with all their players.

So, Roy is interested in grooming his players into a system that they will never see once in the NBA, and you think that this is in the best interest of the player? I tend to believe it is that Roy is too fixated on a system that was in vogue 20 years ago and either can't change or will not change.

Also, your statement implies that coaches that see players with unique talents and skills and who adapt their "system" to allow those players to excel and showcase those skills are less concerned about the players and more concerned with winning now, that instant gratification thing?

Am I reading you right?

[Troublemaker]

Ingram is a really unique talent, at least to me. I think he's the best player to come along since Anthony Davis.
Duke was a better fit for him for his obvious one year in college, and I had no problem with that. I don't know why it always seems to be a mark against one school or the other when a kid chooses the best situation for them.

Yeah, but you guys recruited him HARD and he might very well have chosen UNC because of community ties (e.g. Stackhouse) and you wouldn't have had the hindsight of seeing how things worked out for him at Duke. Alternate Reality Wheat does not think Brandon Ingram is the best talent since Anthony Davis (which, while I love Brandon, is a stretch to me anyway). A.R.Wheat in two years is praising Roy for developing "stick figure" frosh Ingram into a mid-first round pick by his junior year.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Again, you are not addressing the primary question.

Why are players of similar rankings at various different programs going to the NBA sooner than players that attend UNC?

One theory is that they progress slower at UNC... I know you disagree with that, but how do you explain the statistical differences? You say I'm wrong, but then refer to an unrelated stat to support your argument.

Surely you understand the difference between, total number of players in the NBA and the question of when those players leave college to get to the NBA, and that is the question you do not even attempt to answer.

Why do players with similar rankings at other schools get drafted earlier than UNC players? What is your theory or explanation? Is it as simple as they love UNC so much they choose to forego the draft??? That answer would at least be relevant.

How many of those players you mention rush to the NBA and flame out when they could have been better prepared for a long career?

It's about how a coach chooses to run a program. His program. UNC is not focused on the one and done mentality. It's fine if other schools want to, but it's not they way Roy wants to do it. He has remained competitive doing it his way, so why not just live with it?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Yeah, but you guys recruited him HARD and he might very well have chosen UNC because of community ties (e.g. Stackhouse) and you wouldn't have had the hindsight of seeing how things worked out for him at Duke. Alternate Reality Wheat does not think Brandon Ingram is the best talent since Anthony Davis (which, while I love Brandon, is a stretch to me anyway). A.R.Wheat in two years is praising Roy for developing "stick figure" frosh Ingram into a mid-first round pick by his junior year.

Absolutely Roy wanted Ingram, who wouldn't? Roy always recruits the top players hard, and if the fit is right he gets his share. But he is not one to compromise his system/principles to get a single player, that's for sure.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

So, Roy is interested in grooming his players into a system that they will never see once in the NBA, and you think that this is in the best interest of the player? I tend to believe it is that Roy is too fixated on a system that was in vogue 20 years ago and either can't change or will not change.

Also, your statement implies that coaches that see players with unique talents and skills and who adapt their "system" to allow those players to excel and showcase those skills are less concerned about the players and more concerned with winning now, that instant gratification thing?

Am I reading you right?

I think Roy is a college coach, not and NBA coach.
He wants players that he can win games with in college and enjoy coaching, ones that will accept his teachings to become better players. And he wants to prepare them for the future.
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for players who want a different approach than the system Roy has in place.

When Roy's players get to the NBA they are prepared for whatever system the NBA coach has.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think Roy is a college coach, not and NBA coach.
He wants players that he can win games with in college and enjoy coaching, ones that will accept his teachings to become better players. And he wants to prepare them for the future.
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for players who want a different approach than the system Roy has in place.

When Roy's players get to the NBA they are prepared for whatever system the NBA coach has.

Like Tyler Hansbrough, James McAdoo, Reggie Bullock, Kendall Marshall, and Tyler Zeller? All multi-year UNC players who "learned the system" at UNC only to underperform in the NBA?

Your narrative is really coming across as "it's not that Coach Roy can't recruit OADs, it's that he prefers multi-year players who under-achieve".

You know who used to carry that philosophy? Duke fans around a decade ago. We looked down on UK and KU for their OAD approach, and it turns out they were right all along. Coupled with veterans here and there (who aren't likely to be high-impact players in the NBA), it's a winning approach.

[PackMan97]

I think Roy is a college coach, not and NBA coach.

When Roy's players get to the NBA they are prepared for whatever system the NBA coach has.

LOL!

How was the last NBA all-star that UNC has produced? Heck, when was the last solid NBA starter that UNC produced? Heck, only two UNC players currently in the NBA averaged over 10 point a game for their team and that was just barely.

Coaches are great because they adapt, they change and they keep winning. We all know the only reason Roy has won anything is because he and Carolina cheat.

Coach K is a coach that adapts as the game adapts. It's what makes him so successful.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I feel there's a level of dis-ingenuity going on here - Wheat's not totally wrong. If Duke were recruiting top tier talent that was sticking around for 2 or more years, we would be extolling K's ability to find "Duke guys" who value the right things. But since Duke is churning out OADs, we point to K's ability to mold talent and get them NBA ready.

Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of compromises that get made on all sides.

[Channing]

Absolutely Roy wanted Ingram, who wouldn't? Roy always recruits the top players hard, and if the fit is right he gets his share. But he is not one to compromise his system/principles to get a single player, that's for sure.

Bull Hockey.

Roy recruits the highest ranked players he can find. He just hasn't been able to close the deal recently. The reason is not that he "won't compromise his system" (because we all know he would have taken those guys in a second. So, what is the reason? Is it the cheating scandal? Probably. Is it the fact that similarly ranked players go to the nba faster from other schools? probably.

Just looking at the current crop of high school seniors, Roy (and U(sic)NC) heavily recruited and would have loved:

Harry Giles
Dennis Smith
Bam Adebayo
Rawle Alkins
Sacha Killeya Jones

These players all decided they would be better off elsewhere (and...can you blame them?)

[flyingdutchdevil]

I feel there's a level of dis-ingenuity going on here - Wheat's not totally wrong. If Duke were recruiting top tier talent that was sticking around for 2 or more years, we would be extolling K's ability to find "Duke guys" who value the right things. But since Duke is churning out OADs, we point to K's ability to mold talent and get them NBA ready.

Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of compromises that get made on all sides.

Like a decade ago? I'm willing to argue that Duke arguably held players a little too long and Coach K didn't like OAD because they didn't fit his philosophy, but the man has changed.

UNC, a decade ago, was like Duke now in terms of recruiting: getting nearly everyone they wanted, top 10 recruits left, right, and center, and players bolting to the NBA (Wright, Lawson, M Williams, etc). And we, as Duke fans, argued that Coach K was building a better program with kids who wanted to stay all four years and not recruit OADs. But we reversed that thinking with Austin Rivers (Kyrie was the first and set the precedent, but it didn't really hit until Rivers, IMO).

UNC is using the same argument that we used a decade ago.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Like Tyler Hansbrough, James McAdoo, Reggie Bullock, Kendall Marshall, and Tyler Zeller? All multi-year UNC players who "learned the system" at UNC only to underperform in the NBA?

Your narrative is really coming across as "it's not that Coach Roy can't recruit OADs, it's that he prefers multi-year players who under-achieve".

You know who used to carry that philosophy? Duke fans around a decade ago. We looked down on UK and KU for their OAD approach, and it turns out they were right all along. Coupled with veterans here and there (who aren't likely to be high-impact players in the NBA), it's a winning approach.

Yes, and they all prove my point. I don't think they've underperformed at all. Just done about what was reasonably expected of them as professionals.

None of the guys you mention are exceptionally talented NBA players, never were, just very solid, and they were well prepared by Roy to have long blue collar careers.

You might think "they were right all along" with a OAD approach...I don't happen to agree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Like a decade ago? I'm willing to argue that Duke arguably held players a little too long and Coach K didn't like OAD because they didn't fit his philosophy, but the man has changed.

UNC, a decade ago, was like Duke now in terms of recruiting: getting nearly everyone they wanted, top 10 recruits left, right, and center, and players bolting to the NBA (Wright, Lawson, M Williams, etc). And we, as Duke fans, argued that Coach K was building a better program with kids who wanted to stay all four years and not recruit OADs. But we reversed that thinking with Austin Rivers (Kyrie was the first and set the precedent, but it didn't really hit until Rivers, IMO).

UNC is using the same argument that we used a decade ago.

Right... that's my point. Both sides have conveniently moved the goalposts to match the circumstances. It's what fans do, I suppose.

[PackMan97]

I feel there's a level of dis-ingenuity going on here - Wheat's not totally wrong. If Duke were recruiting top tier talent that was sticking around for 2 or more years, we would be extolling K's ability to find "Duke guys" who value the right things. But since Duke is churning out OADs, we point to K's ability to mold talent and get them NBA ready.

I've always felt that Duke was able to get top talents to stay because the could recruit the upper middle class stars with great academics that didn't need the money.

Guys like Grant Hil, Shane Battier, Trajan Langdan, Seth Curry, Mike Dunleavy, JJ Reddick, the Plumlees. Let's face it, if you are a top 15 talent from a well off family and good at school...chances are you'll be a Duke player

It's rare for other schools to land these types of players when Duke comes calling. Think of all the "NBA" guys that State lands. Heck, we have guys leave early even when they aren't NBA prospsects because they need to get to Europe and start making what money they can make. Carolina occassionally gets guys like this with Jon Henson (whose dad is a very succesful corporate executive) or sometimes they create them buy giving Hansboroughs mom and very nice job "fund raising" while flying around the country watching her kid's games for free.

tl;dr - When a duke players stays four years it's because they value education, don't need the money and are enjoying the college experience. When Carolina gets a kid to stay four years, it's because they cheat. When state gets a players to stay for four years it's because they suck. I think that sums it up

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Like a decade ago? I'm willing to argue that Duke arguably held players a little too long and Coach K didn't like OAD because they didn't fit his philosophy, but the man has changed.

UNC, a decade ago, was like Duke now in terms of recruiting: getting nearly everyone they wanted, top 10 recruits left, right, and center, and players bolting to the NBA (Wright, Lawson, M Williams, etc). And we, as Duke fans, argued that Coach K was building a better program with kids who wanted to stay all four years and not recruit OADs. But we reversed that thinking with Austin Rivers (Kyrie was the first and set the precedent, but it didn't really hit until Rivers, IMO).

UNC is using the same argument that we used a decade ago.

I'm not arguing UNC is building anything better by not going the OAD route hard...just that they are doing just fine doing it their way.

[RepoMan]

UNC is not focused on the one and done mentality. It's fine if other schools want to, but it's not they way Roy wants to do it.

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Good one.

[RepoMan]

When a duke players stays four years it's because they value education, don't need the money and are enjoying the college experience. When Carolina gets a kid to stay four years, it's because they cheat. When state gets a players to stay for four years it's because they suck. I think that sums it up

Dude, you are on a roll!!!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm not arguing UNC is building anything better by not going the OAD route hard...just that they are doing just fine doing it their way.

It is curious the everyone seems to be piling on Roy's ineffective system when you were one miracle shot away from a national championship.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It is curious the everyone seems to be piling on Roy's ineffective system when you were one miracle shot away from a national championship.

I'll be the first to admit that Roy was super successful today and that the recruiting players for four years (a la Nova and UVa) is incredibly successful. But Wheat - who I normally support - seems to think that Roy would rather have it this way and that it leads to players thriving in the NBA. Rather, it's that a) Roy can't get OADs anymore despite trying really hard and b) his players get better but rarely get better to be impactful in the NBA.

And now, with good talent next year and arguably not so good talent the year after, UNC will continue this false narrative of "Roy likes to build programs and players rather than renting OADs" nonsense.