unc Athletics Scandal - Amended NOA has been released

[Skitzle]

His explanation of the NCAA's inability to rule is one thing. He can spin that anyway his legal mind wants. His complete lack of outrage for what has happened is another. It shines a light on what he really is about. He is a college coach apologist, who values his relationships within the coaching community more than he values his reputation as an objective analyst.

He has made himself irreverent as an analyst with regards to the "social injustice" of the NCAA... his outrage against the NCAA is limited to paying the players. He apparently couldn't care less that the NCAA is allowing a totally uneven playing field and is depriving student athletes of the one thing of value associated with their scholarships. So is he really concerned about the athletes?

I can't reconcile his apathy towards the abuse of steering players away from a meaningful education with his fervor over not giving the athletes some pocket money... like I said up thread, Jay's inconsistencies are untenable at best, and flat out hypocritical at worst.

You simply cannot paint yourself as a social justice crusader and be so silent on the largest abuse of players in NCAA history.

The smartest man in basketball sure looks obtuse on this issue.

Dear Duke fans, Please don't flame me, I like Jay Bilas. I always want to support him, but this message hits home and is very well put (Sporks!)

I'm putting forward a counter theory... its probably a grassy knoll type theory but here you go.

"Everyone does it" = Duke does something that is also slightly over the gray area line with regards to student athletes = let me "protect roy" so I can "protect k" on the off chance that everything doesn't go smoothly for Duke in the future. *takes off my tinfoil hat*

[cspan37421]

His explanation of the NCAA's inability to rule is one thing. He can spin that anyway his legal mind wants. His complete lack of outrage for what has happened is another. It shines a light on what he really is about. He is a college coach apologist, who values his relationships within the coaching community more than he values his reputation as an objective analyst.

He has made himself irreverent as an analyst with regards to the "social injustice" of the NCAA... his outrage against the NCAA is limited to paying the players. He apparently couldn't care less that the NCAA is allowing a totally uneven playing field and is depriving student athletes of the one thing of value associated with their scholarships. So is he really concerned about the athletes?

I can't reconcile his apathy towards the abuse of steering players away from a meaningful education with his fervor over not giving the athletes some pocket money... like I said up thread, Jay's inconsistencies are untenable at best, and flat out hypocritical at worst.

You simply cannot paint yourself as a social justice crusader and be so silent on the largest abuse of players in NCAA history.

The smartest man in basketball sure looks obtuse on this issue.

To be fair to "our man", he claims to agree that the cheating has been a terrible thing. Those are the words that come out. But you don't hear the slightest anguish, anger, or moral indignation in his voice. It's very matter of fact, and instead, you hear the tonal equivalent of a shoulder shrug about the whole thing.

I doubt very much he sees the scandal as an abuse of players. With respect to both players and coaches, he does not think it's realistic to expect either of them to march into the provost's office and demand that substance be added to the independent studies courses. In this I think he is correct - most - I'd say the vast majority - of these players are delighted to be moved along and given passing grades with no work (or attendance) required at all. There was at least one exception, a football player who (IIRC) sued because he was told he could not sign up for what he wanted to (this theme, interestingly, played out in the Tom Wolfe novel I Am Charlotte Simmons, where the story's legendary BB coach gets furious at one of his players for taking an interest in a real course that might require real work).

In most cases it takes two to tango, as far as the fraud is concerned. We have mostly willing victims here; Bilas knows that, so he's not going to spend energy crying foul on behalf of "victims" who don't see themselves as such.

[Indoor66]

To be fair to "our man", he claims to agree that the cheating has been a terrible thing. Those are the words that come out. But you don't hear the slightest anguish, anger, or moral indignation in his voice. It's very matter of fact, and instead, you hear the tonal equivalent of a shoulder shrug about the whole thing.

I doubt very much he sees the scandal as an abuse of players. With respect to both players and coaches, he does not think it's realistic to expect either of them to march into the provost's office and demand that substance be added to the independent studies courses. In this I think he is correct - most - I'd say the vast majority - of these players are delighted to be moved along and given passing grades with no work (or attendance) required at all. There was at least one exception, a football player who (IIRC) sued because he was told he could not sign up for what he wanted to (this theme, interestingly, played out in the Tom Wolfe novel I Am Charlotte Simmons, where the story's legendary BB coach gets furious at one of his players for taking an interest in a real course that might require real work).

In most cases it takes two to tango, as far as the fraud is concerned. We have mostly willing victims here; Bilas knows that, so he's not going to spend energy crying foul on behalf of "victims" who don't see themselves as such.

IMO you last paragraph comes across as rather naive. You stated "position" negates the issue of relative maturity, positions of authority and influence vs the student athlete and the very prime responsibility of the "adults" involved in the process. Adults must lead the youth toward their spinach as well as their ice cream. Everyone naturally goes to the ice cream.

To abrogate that responsibility for the purposes of unCheat or any other school to win trophies and athletic honors is a complete abandonment of the purpose of a university and abandonment of the purpose of sporting competition. I hope that there is better in Universities than this.

[DukeandMdFan]

Dear Duke fans, Please don't flame me, I like Jay Bilas. I always want to support him, but this message hits home and is very well put (Sporks!)

I'm putting forward a counter theory... its probably a grassy knoll type theory but here you go.

"Everyone does it" = Duke does something that is also slightly over the gray area line with regards to student athletes = let me "protect roy" so I can "protect k" on the off chance that everything doesn't go smoothly for Duke in the future. *takes off my tinfoil hat*

I agree that Duke and everyone else does something that is in the gray area. He doesn't want to tackle the issue of basketball players not having the same academic requirements as the rest of the non-revenue producing student body.

However, Bilas does give a lot of twitter publicity to the student-manager games, which is a more accurate reflection of the true student body.

[cspan37421]

IMO you last paragraph comes across as rather naive. You stated "position" negates the issue of relative maturity, positions of authority and influence vs the student athlete and the very prime responsibility of the "adults" involved in the process. Adults must lead the youth toward their spinach as well as their ice cream. Everyone naturally goes to the ice cream.

To abrogate that responsibility for the purposes of unCheat or any other school to win trophies and athletic honors is a complete abandonment of the purpose of a university and abandonment of the purpose of sporting competition. I hope that there is better in Universities than this.

I did not negate the issue; I didn't address it. Actually, I agree to an extent about relative maturity, positions of authority, and so forth. Of course there is differential power (there almost always is) ... but at some point kids are deemed to be adults for a great number of reasons - military, electorally, financially - broadly speaking, legally. If we don't draw the line somewhere about letting people off the hook because of power differentials, you get odd and IMO undesirable results, some of which are PPB-related and need not be stated here, but suffice it to say one example involves two frisky people who are both over 0.08 BAC.

If promises of a sound education were made to 17-yr-olds and then later, these 18-year-olds were denied registration into a courseload of their choosing, then yeah, you have something. But IMO the more naive position is that this baloney at UNC wasn't what 95%+ of them wanted - and don't regret getting.* When the lid first blew off of this, how many gathered around Ol Roy in support (same time as Bilas' interview with him) and how many rallied to Rashad's side? Almost none have regrets or contrition. I can think just of McCants, that one FB player who reported being told "no, you're signing up for this instead", and that's it. Perhaps since then there have been a couple more (maybe WBB player(s)?) but among men's FB and BB, I can only think of that FB player and McCants. And I'm not even sure McCants felt robbed. Wasn't he just saying, in essence, "I'm not gonna lie for you all anymore" ?

* wasn't there something about UNC having to offer free real courses to those who enrolled in the fake ones? If so, I wonder how many signed up for them. I'm thinking single digits, tops.

[jipops]

I did not negate the issue; I didn't address it. Actually, I agree to an extent about relative maturity, positions of authority, and so forth. Of course there is differential power (there almost always is) ... but at some point kids are deemed to be adults for a great number of reasons - military, electorally, financially - broadly speaking, legally. If we don't draw the line somewhere about letting people off the hook because of power differentials, you get odd and IMO undesirable results, some of which are PPB-related and need not be stated here, but suffice it to say one example involves two frisky people who are both over 0.08 BAC.

If promises of a sound education were made to 17-yr-olds and then later, these 18-year-olds were denied registration into a courseload of their choosing, then yeah, you have something. But IMO the more naive position is that this baloney at UNC wasn't what 95%+ of them wanted - and don't regret getting.* When the lid first blew off of this, how many gathered around Ol Roy in support (same time as Bilas' interview with him) and how many rallied to Rashad's side? Almost none have regrets or contrition. I can think just of McCants, that one FB player who reported being told "no, you're signing up for this instead", and that's it. Perhaps since then there have been a couple more (maybe WBB player(s)?) but among men's FB and BB, I can only think of that FB player and McCants. And I'm not even sure McCants felt robbed. Wasn't he just saying, in essence, "I'm not gonna lie for you all anymore" ?

* wasn't there something about UNC having to offer free real courses to those who enrolled in the fake ones? If so, I wonder how many signed up for them. I'm thinking single digits, tops.

I don't think it is correct to deny there is a level of exploitation involved in all this. It's actually something that Jay Smith and Willingham emphasized heavily in their book from what they saw with the interactions with many of these athletes. In very many cases there are kids being recruited into the program that have never before been put into position to assimilate into an actual academic environment, even through high school. What is being sold to them at the university is the heavy focus on athletics while providing for them an appearance of an education via a document. Boom, they've made it. The realities of their past are now gone . This is the type of system that has given unc the opportunity to grossly exploit. In their eyes, there is no need to explore any academic mission with these kids. They are just here to play sports, make the school money, and further build up the unc brand. I don't see how every kid from every type of situation should automatically be expected to have the where-with-all to just throw up a red flag.

And this is what really burns me up about Jay's almost non-reaction. Much of his premise on the ncaa has been how these kids are being exploited. Well the biggest, grossest example has been occurring right there in Chapel Hill. He should be spewing fire in the directions of both the cheats and the ncaa. Instead he offers only legalities, which just reeks in hypocrisy.

[MarkD83]

I agree that Duke and everyone else does something that is in the gray area. He doesn't want to tackle the issue of basketball players not having the same academic requirements as the rest of the non-revenue producing student body.

However, Bilas does give a lot of twitter publicity to the student-manager games, which is a more accurate reflection of the true student body.

DukeandMdFan, these next comments are not to pick on you but lead to the biggest issue I have with the minimal action being taking by the NCAA as well as Jay's approach to this.

Since everyone does this so does Duke. Additionally, Duke just hired an ex-compliance officer from UNC and a professor who openly suggested that there was nothing serious happening at UNC and everyone should just put this behind them. Duke is also judged by the company they keep and since Duke is an intimate rival of UNC, Duke will be judged by what is happening at UNC.

So when is someone going to start questioning the legitimacy of all of Duke's championships?

Once the NCAA and SACS make their final decisions, I sure hope the Duke administration takes some stand because their silence could lead to the scenario I have listed above.

[devildeac]

DukeandMdFan, these next comments are not to pick on you but lead to the biggest issue I have with the minimal action being taking by the NCAA as well as Jay's approach to this.

Since everyone does this so does Duke. Additionally, Duke just hired an ex-compliance officer from UNC and a professor who openly suggested that there was nothing serious happening at UNC and everyone should just put this behind them. Duke is also judged by the company they keep and since Duke is an intimate rival of UNC, Duke will be judged by what is happening at UNC.

So when is someone going to start questioning the legitimacy of all of Duke's championships?

Once the NCAA and SACS make their final decisions, I sure hope the Duke administration takes some stand because their silence could lead to the scenario I have listed above.

Start questioning? Ha! The haters have been doubting that we won any legitimate championships for over 20 years now. Laettner's "stomp," billy pecker's "Duke gets all the calls," rigged/easy pathways, etc.

[oldnavy]

I don't think it is correct to deny there is a level of exploitation involved in all this. It's actually something that Jay Smith and Willingham emphasized heavily in their book from what they saw with the interactions with many of these athletes. In very many cases there are kids being recruited into the program that have never before been put into position to assimilate into an actual academic environment, even through high school. What is being sold to them at the university is the heavy focus on athletics while providing for them an appearance of an education via a document. Boom, they've made it. The realities of their past are now gone . This is the type of system that has given unc the opportunity to grossly exploit. In their eyes, there is no need to explore any academic mission with these kids. They are just here to play sports, make the school money, and further build up the unc brand. I don't see how every kid from every type of situation should automatically be expected to have the where-with-all to just throw up a red flag.

And this is what really burns me up about Jay's almost non-reaction. Much of his premise on the ncaa has been how these kids are being exploited. Well the biggest, grossest example has been occurring right there in Chapel Hill. He should be spewing fire in the directions of both the cheats and the ncaa. Instead he offers only legalities, which just reeks in hypocrisy.

Exactly. It doesnt matter to me that the students are willing to take the freebie grades it is still exploitation. He wants them paid yet is perfectly fine that the ONE payment available NOW and the most valuable payment is witheld. Yes I know he says its awful but his reaction doesn't come close with his outrage regarding the payment issue.

[DukeandMdFan]

DukeandMdFan, these next comments are not to pick on you but lead to the biggest issue I have with the minimal action being taking by the NCAA as well as Jay's approach to this.

Since everyone does this so does Duke. Additionally, Duke just hired an ex-compliance officer from UNC and a professor who openly suggested that there was nothing serious happening at UNC and everyone should just put this behind them. Duke is also judged by the company they keep and since Duke is an intimate rival of UNC, Duke will be judged by what is happening at UNC.

So when is someone going to start questioning the legitimacy of all of Duke's championships?

Once the NCAA and SACS make their final decisions, I sure hope the Duke administration takes some stand because their silence could lead to the scenario I have listed above.

Good points of why Duke could be perceived as hypocritical if it takes a strong stance against UNC.

I didn't mean to imply that UNC's complete disregard for academic requirements is common. I think Duke's recruitment of OADs is a gray area and there very well could be others - a tutor providing a little too much help, a professor accepting a late assignment, etc. (Actually, sometimes I think I provide a little too much help when I help my kids with their homework.) Regarding OADs, while not breaking any NCAA rules and possibly being in the best interest of the player, it isn't what one would expect from a true "student-athlete". (Hypothetically, I don't think someone who took 50% legitimate courses for four years is any worse off than someone who took 100% legitimate courses for one year.)

I also didn't mean to imply that I wasn't disappointed in Bilas's support of UNC.

[cspan37421]

Start questioning? Ha! The haters have been doubting that we won any legitimate championships for over 20 years now. Laettner's "stomp," billy pecker's "Duke gets all the calls," rigged/easy pathways, etc.

Not to mention black diamonds.

[Indoor66]

Just for a Happy Moment in this thread full of despair.

[Skitzle]

Just for a Happy Moment in this thread full of despair.

Here is some more happiness.

[moonpie23]

35,444 views and they're still gonna skate...

our kung fu needs work...


if we could hang another banner, they would just have to shut up...

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

35,444 views and they're still gonna skate...

our kung fu needs work...


if we could hang another banner, they would just have to shut up...

Coming right up!
Love, Ima

[rasputin]

35,444 views and they're still gonna skate...

our kung fu needs work...


if we could hang another banner, they would just have to shut up...

When we hang another banner, the Cheats will just have somebody bake up two more for them.

[duke80]

DukeandMdFan, these next comments are not to pick on you but lead to the biggest issue I have with the minimal action being taking by the NCAA as well as Jay's approach to this.

Since everyone does this so does Duke. Additionally, Duke just hired an ex-compliance officer from UNC and a professor who openly suggested that there was nothing serious happening at UNC and everyone should just put this behind them. Duke is also judged by the company they keep and since Duke is an intimate rival of UNC, Duke will be judged by what is happening at UNC.

So when is someone going to start questioning the legitimacy of all of Duke's championships?

Once the NCAA and SACS make their final decisions, I sure hope the Duke administration takes some stand because their silence could lead to the scenario I have listed above.

Hello DukeandMarylandFan-

I appreciate you coming onto the board and voicing your opinion, however do you really think Duke basketball and football players don't go to class and have tutors write their papers for them? I think it was last year that Cutcliffe said how impressed he was that his football players were studying on the bus on the way to an away game. You think K signs off on stuff like this. I doubt it.

As far as legitimacy of titles, you and UNC posters are the only ones I have ever heard question them. Maybe I'm naive or something, but did you actually say that Duke would be judged by what is happening at UNC? Maybe I misinterpreted your post, as I don't understand your logic.

As far as Duke or K 'weighing in' after decisions are made by NCAA and SACS, I did hear K once say that at least Duke basketball players go to class.

[DukeandMdFan]

Hello DukeandMarylandFan-

I appreciate you coming onto the board and voicing your opinion, however do you really think Duke basketball and football players don't go to class and have tutors write their papers for them? I think it was last year that Cutcliffe said how impressed he was that his football players were studying on the bus on the way to an away game. You think K signs off on stuff like this. I doubt it.

As far as legitimacy of titles, you and UNC posters are the only ones I have ever heard question them. Maybe I'm naive or something, but did you actually say that Duke would be judged by what is happening at UNC? Maybe I misinterpreted your post, as I don't understand your logic.

As far as Duke or K 'weighing in' after decisions are made by NCAA and SACS, I did hear K once say that at least Duke basketball players go to class.

Those weren't my views. They were extrapolations made by someone else.

I do think UNC is tarnished. As a result, I think the Duke-UNC rivalry is tarnished. From this Duke fan's perspective, the rivalry was much better when it was thought to be two top programs who do things the right way on and off the court than when the perceptions of the programs are drastically different.

I think that the stink of the UNC athletic/academic scandal is so great that it extends to UNC and big-time athletic programs in general.

I think UNC and Duke recruit many of the same players.

I definitely am not questioning the legitimacy of Duke's titles.

I'm not even questioning the legitimacy of UNC's titles. They won the game on the court; they celebrated on Franklin Street; and they bought the tee-shirts. Vacating those championships doesn't take away those experiences. Unless another team is crowned a champion, I don't see any "winners" and I don't think the losses hurt any less. I'm pretty much over those losses anyway. Technically, the players should have been academically ineligible. But, they were not declared ineligible. If the "student-athletes" had been steered to some other non-independent study classes that were not overly difficult, they probably could have passed those too.

I am hoping that UNC gets scholarship reductions, although I would get some (probably petty) satisfaction in some UNC wins being vacated.

I do think that the adults who facilitated academic fraud should be fired.

I think the real victims in this are not the players/fans from the other schools which had to do schoolwork to remain eligible, but the UNC students and student-athletes who actually did a college-level amount of work and learned a college-level amount of material, but their qualifications will now be questioned when they try to find a job.

[DukeandMdFan]

Hello DukeandMarylandFan-

I appreciate you coming onto the board and voicing your opinion, however do you really think Duke basketball and football players don't go to class and have tutors write their papers for them?

My own thoughts on tutors is that a lot of what most tutors do is in the gray area with respect to homework.

For a math class...

I think that it would clearly not be cheating for a tutor to go through the class notes and explain why the professor performed each and every step in the problem(s). I don't think it would be cheating for the tutor to go through a lot of other similar problems and teach the student how to solve the problem. Then, the student should work the problem by themselves with no hints from the tutor and submit it to the teacher.

I think that tutors of athletes and non-athletes do more than that. I think a lot of tutors help the students with the actual homework problems that they turn in. So, in classes where homework is graded, where does "cheating" begin?

1 - Tutor gives hints on how a problem might be solved
2 - Tutor checks the homework to make sure the student showed their work
3 - Tutor checks the homework and tells the student whether the problem is right
4 - Tutor checks the homework and tells the student where the mistakes are
5 - Tutor checks the homework and tells the student how to fix the mistakes
6 - Tutor checks the homework and corrects the errors
7 - Tutor does the homework and student copies it (some learning can occur here)
8 - Tutor does the homework and writes the student's name on it.

Everyone has their own line on what is acceptable. For people who draw the line at #2 or #3, they could call everyone else a cheater. I think most tutors would draw the line somewhere else. I think that what Duke tutors do/did is somewhere along the continuum.

I've had professors who have said that it is acceptable for students to work together to solve math problems and other professors who expect students to do their homework independently.

[English]

My own thoughts on tutors is that a lot of what most tutors do is in the gray area with respect to homework.

...

This takes false equivalency to another level beyond what I've even seen from the sheep fans. What in holy hell is the purpose of opening a discussion of what proper tutorial practices include for an institution of higher learning? The honor code of the respective schools often determines that in explicit or implicit terms. What's the point?

The UNC scandal involves something as far removed from this technical distinction that renders this conversation pointless and counterproductive in this thread.

As to your theory that Bilas is, perhaps, defending UNC's hoops team in the purely hypothetical forward-thinking scenario that, at some remote time in the future Duke blurs the lines slightly, he can then defend them without allegations of Duke-bias...uhh, not buying it. Bilas' entire argument lies in the fact that academics don't fall under the NCAA's purview. He will fight tooth and nail to argue against the NCAA exerting or extending its sphere of influence, and he's clearly used this scenario to, again, make that point. His hollow finger wagging about this being a shame that some athletes were denied an education promised by the institution is just that...it's a farce, it's hollow, and it wreaks of hypocrisy. His defense of the hoops program and its CEO is laughable. The point made up-thread that Bilas is steadfastly arguing form over substance is spot-on.