MLax: Marquette, 1 at Duke, 20

[burnspbesq]

Unlike college hoops which I watch almost entirely with the sound off (saving me from the likes of Elmore, Vitale and Bilas), I find that
generally speaking, the college lax announcers on ESPNU do a good job of describing the game, and if you watch a few games over a period
of time, the basic important rules will become clear quickly.

Agreed, and I would submit that their playing experience has a lot to do with it. Except for Anish, pretty much everyone who calls lax for ESPN is a former D1 player. Quint, Carc, Matt Ward, and Ryan Flanagan were All-Americans. In addition to being a D1 player, Mark Dixon has been a D1 official. They know what's coming at about the same time the players figure it out.

[burnspbesq]

There are a lot of differences--at least there were a lot of differences in 2004. My daughter also played high school lacrosse, with her last season being 2004, though she wouldn't have been a candidate to play in college.

Some big differences, in addition to the limits on checking: in women's lacrosse, defensive players are not allowed to move between an offensive player looking to shoot and the goal if they are not already there when the player gets the ball. There is no such rule in men's lacrosse. The men also play quarters instead of halves. And the men's sticks are allowed to have deeper pockets than the women's, so it's somewhat easier for men to dodge with the ball than women, who may pass more often instead.

I understand the safety motivation for the rule, but don't get me started on "shooting space." Especially these days: smart attackers have learned to anticipate how defenses are going to slide, and run at off-ball defenders to create a violation. Also, coming from the men's game, I'm not a fan of the free-position attempt; I think it penalizes the defense too heavily for relatively minor fouls. I'd prefer a 30-second penalty, as in the men's game.

There is more zone defense allowed in the women's game than in the past, but there are still limits, which I don't think I fully understand. You're still not allowed to just pack the eight-meter area and dare the offense to shoot from outside, but you see more of what would be labeled as "junk" defenses in basketball, like the so-called "backer zone," which has a lot of trapping principles baked into it.

The big change in the women's game comes next year, with the 90-second shot clock.

[burnspbesq]

Penn's at-large chances probably died last night, thanks to an overtime loss to St. Joseph's.

Army and Bucknell won first-round games in the Patriot League tournament, so the semis are set: Army-Navy and Loyola-Bucknell. The Patriot semis start at 4:30 p.m. on Friday at Navy; if you're in the area, it'll be a great night of lacrosse. The games will also be on CBS SN, which makes them a good lead-in to the ACC semis. Of course, some of us will be in Kennesaw ...

[BandAlum83]

There are a lot of differences--at least there were a lot of differences in 2004. My daughter also played high school lacrosse, with her last season being 2004, though she wouldn't have been a candidate to play in college.

Some big differences, in addition to the limits on checking: in women's lacrosse, defensive players are not allowed to move between an offensive player looking to shoot and the goal if they are not already there when the player gets the ball. There is no such rule in men's lacrosse. The men also play quarters instead of halves. And the men's sticks are allowed to have deeper pockets than the women's, so it's somewhat easier for men to dodge with the ball than women, who may pass more often instead.

My daughter graduated in 2011. That period 2004-2011 had a lot of rules changes.

The rule about moving between the shooter and the goal is known as a "Shooting Space" violation in Women's lacrosse. It is for safety, primarily, I believe. So that doesn't exist in men's?

On defense in women's, a zone defense isn't allowed, and within the shooting arc, a player must be within a stick length of the woman being defended. You will see a defense setting up on the arc as a result, while offensive players probe to get inside for passes or with the ball. Charges/blocking calls are common and are similar to basketball.

Are there similar defensive limitations in Men's?

[burnspbesq]

My daughter graduated in 2011. That period 2004-2011 had a lot of rules changes.

The rule about moving between the shooter and the goal is known as a "Shooting Space" violation in Women's lacrosse. It is for safety, primarily, I believe. So that doesn't exist in men's?

On defense in women's, a zone defense isn't allowed, and within the shooting arc, a player must be within a stick length of the woman being defended. You will see a defense setting up on the arc as a result, while offensive players probe to get inside for passes or with the ball. Charges/blocking calls are common and are similar to basketball.

Are there similar defensive limitations in Men's?

There is no shooting space foul in the men's game. Shots hit defenders in front on a pretty regular basis. I got zinged a couple of times during my playing days; it's a great bruise if you get hit on an an upadded area.

Zone defense is allowed in the men's game. What you mostly see is 3-3 or 1-3-2, most often by a team that needs to get control of the tempo. I can't think offhand of a team for which a zone is its base defense. Duke hardly ever plays zone in six-on-six situations. Virginia has historically played a lot of zone.

No block/charge in the men's game. The most common fouls called on the offense (which result in loss of possession) are offside, illegal screen (similar to basketball), interference (contact with a player not within five yards of the ball, which happens mostly when the ball is on the ground), and "warding off" (use of a free arm to protect the stick when in possession of the ball--happens all the time, but you can go an entire weekend of games without seeing it called).

[burnspbesq]

The latest versions of the major bracketologies have Duke comfortably in the tournament (i.e., not on the bubble). A number one SOS helps a lot, as does an RPI of 10 and only one "bad" loss (Air Force and Harvard don't count as bad losses, as both are within the RPI top 25). On those theories, a win against ND would pretty much cement a bid (worst case that would be an RPI top 10 win, and might be a top five win), and an ACC tournament win could get Duke a home game in the first round. All of this assumes no carnage in the other conference tournaments, and assumes a win over BU on Selection Sunday.

As it presently stands, in the IL bracket we're at Hopkins in the first round, and in the LaxMag bracket we're at Navy. Either of those would be tough but winnable games.

[BandAlum83]

There is no shooting space foul in the men's game. Shots hit defenders in front on a pretty regular basis. I got zinged a couple of times during my playing days; it's a great bruise if you get hit on an an upadded area.

Zone defense is allowed in the men's game. What you mostly see is 3-3 or 1-3-2, most often by a team that needs to get control of the tempo. I can't think offhand of a team for which a zone is its base defense. Duke hardly ever plays zone in six-on-six situations. Virginia has historically played a lot of zone.

No block/charge in the men's game. The most common fouls called on the offense (which result in loss of possession) are offside, illegal screen (similar to basketball), interference (contact with a player not within five yards of the ball, which happens mostly when the ball is on the ground), and "warding off" (use of a free arm to protect the stick when in possession of the ball--happens all the time, but you can go an entire weekend of games without seeing it called).

Thanks for taking the time to explain!

What is offsides in the men's game?

[MCFinARL]

I understand the safety motivation for the rule, but don't get me started on "shooting space." Especially these days: smart attackers have learned to anticipate how defenses are going to slide, and run at off-ball defenders to create a violation. Also, coming from the men's game, I'm not a fan of the free-position attempt; I think it penalizes the defense too heavily for relatively minor fouls. I'd prefer a 30-second penalty, as in the men's game.

There is more zone defense allowed in the women's game than in the past, but there are still limits, which I don't think I fully understand. You're still not allowed to just pack the eight-meter area and dare the offense to shoot from outside, but you see more of what would be labeled as "junk" defenses in basketball, like the so-called "backer zone," which has a lot of trapping principles baked into it.

The big change in the women's game comes next year, with the 90-second shot clock.

The latest versions of the major bracketologies have Duke comfortably in the tournament (i.e., not on the bubble). A number one SOS helps a lot, as does an RPI of 10 and only one "bad" loss (Air Force and Harvard don't count as bad losses, as both are within the RPI top 25). On those theories, a win against ND would pretty much cement a bid (worst case that would be an RPI top 10 win, and might be a top five win), and an ACC tournament win could get Duke a home game in the first round. All of this assumes no carnage in the other conference tournaments, and assumes a win over BU on Selection Sunday.

As it presently stands, in the IL bracket we're at Hopkins in the first round, and in the LaxMag bracket we're at Navy. Either of those would be tough but winnable games.

Agree completely about shooting space, not at all my favorite rule. A change in the rule would presumably require the women to wear more protective gear than they do now, but it would improve the game.

Also agree that, considering the current RPI, a win over Notre Dame would almost certainly get Duke in barring complete chaos in the other conferences. Duke has been helped a lot by the continued success of Loyola, which is now a Top 10 win, and Air Force, which as you note is now a Top 20 loss. I think there may even be some chance Duke might get in without beating Notre Dame, although then everything else would probably have to work out perfectly--no crazy upsets in conference tournaments, and Notre Dame goes on to win the ACC AQ.

And Hopkins and Navy as potential opponents seem like winnable, if challenging games. But then, with this particular Duke team, I can't shake the feeling that almost no opponent is too strong for Duke to beat or too weak for Duke to lose to--it may just depend on which Duke team shows up. Here's hoping the team of the Virginia and Marquette games shows up for all the remaining games this season.

[MCFinARL]

Thanks for taking the time to explain!

What is offsides in the men's game?

Basically, if a team has more than six players in the offensive half of the field or more than seven (counting the goalie) in the defensive half, it is offsides. Teams are required to include players in the penalty box against these totals.

[BandAlum83]

Basically, if a team has more than six players in the offensive half of the field or more than seven (counting the goalie) in the defensive half, it is offsides. Teams are required to include players in the penalty box against these totals.

So very similar to the women's game, except for the counting the penalty box player. That always bugged me about the women's game. If you had someone in the penalty box (say an offensive player), you could still slide another player I to the spot (move a defender up when on offense). So you are never really playing a player down, so no "power plays".

The only real impact is the extra running a player might need to do, contributing to fatigue.

That's how it was in 2011.

Interesting that a shot clock is being brought to the game. That will have a huge impact. Is there already a shot clock in the men's game?

[Blue in the Face]

Interesting that a shot clock is being brought to the game. That will have a huge impact. Is there already a shot clock in the men's game?

Only in the case of a stall warning called by the refs, which starts a 30 second shot clock.

[Doria]

Not that it's germane to tomorrow's game, but what is the rationale for counting the penalty box in offsides determination for the women's game? I understand (I guess) the difference in shooting space, though I don't--at first glance--agree that it should be different. But I don't understand the genesis for the offsides calculation difference. Is it bound up in the historical way the game evolved or something? Just wondering, as a point of interest.

(Must say, thanks again for those references. I'm slowly getting caught up and I believe I've a decent handle on rules as written, but it'll probably take a few games until I can see how the rules translate on the field with calls/non-calls.)

[BandAlum83]

Not that it's germane to tomorrow's game, but what is the rationale for counting the penalty box in offsides determination for the women's game? I understand (I guess) the difference in shooting space, though I don't--at first glance--agree that it should be different. But I don't understand the genesis for the offsides calculation difference. Is it bound up in the historical way the game evolved or something? Just wondering, as a point of interest.

(Must say, thanks again for those references. I'm slowly getting caught up and I believe I've a decent handle on rules as written, but it'll probably take a few games until I can see how the rules translate on the field with calls/non-calls.)

I really don't know. It never made sense to me. I can't guarantee its still done that way either. I can't find any specific reference to it on a Google search.

[MCFinARL]

Duke over ND 10-9 in overtime. On to face Cuse in the final on Sunday, and probably into the NCAA tournament.

A crazy game--down 6-2, Duke came all the way back. For most of the game, it was the oft-criticized defense, not the offense, that kept us in.

[budwom]

Duke over ND 10-9 in overtime. On to face Cuse in the final on Sunday, and probably into the NCAA tournament.

A crazy game--down 6-2, Duke came all the way back. For most of the game, it was the oft-criticized defense, not the offense, that kept us in.

No doubt they're in the tournament now. Before the game, the NCAA released its second (I believe) ranking of
how they see the top ten (as of now), and Duke was at number nine...SOS helps for sure, RPI was good, too.
Slimebuckets down the road didn't make the top ten...

[MCFinARL]

No doubt they're in the tournament now. Before the game, the NCAA released its second (I believe) ranking of
how they see the top ten (as of now), and Duke was at number nine...SOS helps for sure, RPI was good, too.
Slimebuckets down the road didn't make the top ten...

Yes, I agree. And Duke was helped by Loyola pulling out an overtime win over Bucknell, so that win is still a solid win.