Star Wars - Spoilers here! BE WARNED!!!

[JasonEvans]

So, this will be the thread for a spoiler discussion of the film.

I strongly, strongly, strongly recommend folks stop reading if they have not seen the film. I'm serious. It is a ton, ton, ton better without spoilers.

You have been warned...

-Jason "posts with spoilers will follow" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Comments about the plot --

1) I mostly love that JJ paid such an homage to the original. While watching the film I did not mind it at all, but as I get further and further from the film I am a little bothered at how similar the plots were. I mean the story for both of them was:

• Secret information is stored in a cute, beeping driod
• The droid is stranded on a desert planet and eventually captured by scavengers
• The droid is rescued and adopted by a young adult orphan
• The orphan is chased by the Empire and escapes the planet aboard the Millenium Falcon
• The orphan meets Han Solo and Chewie and convinces them to take the droid and its info to the rebellion/resistance
• The bad guys are led by a power-mad leader who we only see in hologram
• His most powerful minion is a Force-wielding baddie who wears all black and has a mask covering his face and distorting his voice
• The bad guys have developed a giant weapon capable of destroying entire planets
• The resistance launches a raid to stop the giant weapon before it can wipe out their planet
• The giant weapon is really only vulnerable to attack in one very specific spot
• At a key point in the battle, one of the good guys pilots his X-wing fighter down a trench with lasers blasting him on all sides so he can hit the spot that will blow up the giant weapon

Sure, I am being a little simplistic at times and am glossing over some other plot points, but you can see how similar they are. I would hope and expect Rian Johnson to take us in new directions. This was fine for a restart of the franchise, but lets get to some new directions going forward shall we?

2) I'm a bit bothered by Kylo Ren (side note, the fact that his given name is Ben is a really nice touch) and his mastery of the Force. Early in the film, he is shown to be truly formidable. He freezes a laser blast in mid-air!! How amazing was that?!?! But, by the end of the film he is being hit by a laser blast from Chewie (maybe he was distracted, having killed his father and all) and then he struggles to defeat two rank amateurs in a light saber battle. Maybe the movies will fix this by having us see him train a lot with Supreme Leader Snoke in the next film, getting him up to speed on being an even more lethal user of the Force. But, we basically left things with Rey being more powerful than him even though she had never been trained and basically only figured out she could use the Force at all about an hour before she faced Ren. And on what planet can Finn even last for 10 seconds in a light saber battle with Ren? I thought the light saber fights didn't look all that good either. I don't need the CGI enhanced mess that was the prequels, but these just didn't seem all that good. Lots of obvious thrusting that just looked awkward. I did like the hilt burning through Finn's shoulder though.

3) Han had to die. I knew it was coming. Still, it was really emotional for me and I felt it both times I saw the film. I love that he died trying to bring his son back from the dark side. He truly was willing to do anything for his child, even give up his own life. Ren's speech right before he kills Solo, where he talks about his struggle, is supposed to seem like he is contemplating coming to the light and then revealed to actually be his struggle to fully embrace the dark side ("I know what I have to do," is a reference to him having to kill his father to prove to Snoke that he is a Dark Lord). Despite what that scene would seem to set up, I am pretty sure Ren will come back to the light at some point, just like his grandfather did.

4) I thought the "map to Luke" was a silly plot device. Ummm, who made the map? Did Luke make it? Why were portions of it broken and separate and how does that even work? Why is Luke hanging out in the middle of nowhere (the first Jedi Temple) without any communications with the outside world? While Luke has been praying or whatever, billions and billions of people are dying. They really need to redeem Luke, as crazy as that sounds, in the next film.

5) R2D2 is in low-power mode and they can't get information out of him?!?! Ummm, what kind of technology are you using that would allow that. His memory circuits should be very easy to remove and tap into. Plug him in to an outlet for goodness sake and re-charge him! Just a silly plot device. And why did he suddenly decide to start working again? Was he just waiting for Han to die? Ughh... bad!

6) Now that we have Finn cracking great jokes, can we just flush C3PO? He's beyond useless and just plain annoying. What is with the red arm? Will that be explained and does anyone care? Was it only there so he could crack the joke to Solo, "You probably did not recognize me with the red arm..."

7) So, the movie never articulated it, but I don't think Ren and Snoke are Sith. I think they are something brand new. What's more, I love that Ren seems to be taking the opposite course of a Jedi, who are told to release their feelings and remain calm. Ren is all about his emotions. The scene where he gets bad news and then destroys the computer panel in front of him with his light saber to then say, "Anything else?" was awesome and hysterical. The storm troopers turning around when they see Ren on the warpath was also great.

8) Anyone want to bet on the actual size of Snoke? I doubt he will really be 30+ feet tall. I'm guessing that is just a projection designed to make him look more imposing. I will be really disappointed though if he turns out to be Yoda-sized. That would be a cheap joke.

-Jason "I will have much, much more soon!" Evans

[Olympic Fan]

So just to be clear ... Kylo Ren is NOT Luke Skywalker?

[JasonEvans]

So just to be clear ... Kylo Ren is NOT Luke Skywalker?

No, not at all. Kylo is Han and Leia's son. We see his face a few times and he is not Luke.

Kylo is very strong in the force and was being trained by Luke to be a Jedi (apparently, along with some other folks) when Kylo turned to the Dark Side. I think it is implied that he slaughtered some of the fellow trainees. He became the servant/apprentice of Snoke and leader of the Knights of Ren. He pretty much worships his grandfather, Darth Vader.

It is stated that Luke was despondent over Kylo's betrayal and that Luke has fled to some mystery place to contemplate what he did wrong in the training. They talk about Luke searching for the First Jedi Temple, but it is not clear that he finds it.

I won't tell you more about Luke if you have not seen the movie.

-Jason "Kylo's given name is Ben Solo and when we hear him called that for the first time, I almost started to cry... Yes, I am lame" Evans

[fuse]

Nice summary Jason.

I enjoyed it. Hard to say given the (intentional) homage/ storyline, I wonder how it will hold up over time.

Prior to the movie, I was convinced the alternate to Luke is Kylo Ren would be Kylo Ren and Rey are brother and sister. Maybe but I doubt Leia would not recognize her daughter. Could Daisy Ridley's similarity to Natalie Portman and a young Carrie Fisher just be a red herring?

The most outrageous thing I heard leaving the theatre was two teenage boys speculating Finn is Mace Windu's son.

I am assuming Finn will recover since the next generation cast is really only Rey and Finn. Poe Dameron is Wedge Antilles, so I doubt much of this storyline will feature him.

[BLPOG]

Comments about the plot --

1) I mostly love that JJ paid such an homage to the original. While watching the film I did not mind it at all, but as I get further and further from the film I am a little bothered at how similar the plots were. I mean the story for both of them was:

• Secret information is stored in a cute, beeping driod
• The droid is stranded on a desert planet and eventually captured by scavengers
• The droid is rescued and adopted by a young adult orphan
• The orphan is chased by the Empire and escapes the planet aboard the Millenium Falcon
• The orphan meets Han Solo and Chewie and convinces them to take the droid and its info to the rebellion/resistance
• The bad guys are led by a power-mad leader who we only see in hologram
• His most powerful minion is a Force-wielding baddie who wears all black and has a mask covering his face and distorting his voice
• The bad guys have developed a giant weapon capable of destroying entire planets
• The resistance launches a raid to stop the giant weapon before it can wipe out their planet
• The giant weapon is really only vulnerable to attack in one very specific spot
• At a key point in the battle, one of the good guys pilots his X-wing fighter down a trench with lasers blasting him on all sides so he can hit the spot that will blow up the giant weapon

Sure, I am being a little simplistic at times and am glossing over some other plot points, but you can see how similar they are. I would hope and expect Rian Johnson to take us in new directions. This was fine for a restart of the franchise, but lets get to some new directions going forward shall we?

2) I'm a bit bothered by Kylo Ren (side note, the fact that his given name is Ben is a really nice touch) and his mastery of the Force. Early in the film, he is shown to be truly formidable. He freezes a laser blast in mid-air!! How amazing was that?!?! But, by the end of the film he is being hit by a laser blast from Chewie (maybe he was distracted, having killed his father and all) and then he struggles to defeat two rank amateurs in a light saber battle. Maybe the movies will fix this by having us see him train a lot with Supreme Leader Snoke in the next film, getting him up to speed on being an even more lethal user of the Force. But, we basically left things with Rey being more powerful than him even though she had never been trained and basically only figured out she could use the Force at all about an hour before she faced Ren. And on what planet can Finn even last for 10 seconds in a light saber battle with Ren? I thought the light saber fights didn't look all that good either. I don't need the CGI enhanced mess that was the prequels, but these just didn't seem all that good. Lots of obvious thrusting that just looked awkward. I did like the hilt burning through Finn's shoulder though.

3) Han had to die. I knew it was coming. Still, it was really emotional for me and I felt it both times I saw the film. I love that he died trying to bring his son back from the dark side. He truly was willing to do anything for his child, even give up his own life. Ren's speech right before he kills Solo, where he talks about his struggle, is supposed to seem like he is contemplating coming to the light and then revealed to actually be his struggle to fully embrace the dark side ("I know what I have to do," is a reference to him having to kill his father to prove to Snoke that he is a Dark Lord). Despite what that scene would seem to set up, I am pretty sure Ren will come back to the light at some point, just like his grandfather did.

4) I thought the "map to Luke" was a silly plot device. Ummm, who made the map? Did Luke make it? Why were portions of it broken and separate and how does that even work? Why is Luke hanging out in the middle of nowhere (the first Jedi Temple) without any communications with the outside world? While Luke has been praying or whatever, billions and billions of people are dying. They really need to redeem Luke, as crazy as that sounds, in the next film.

5) R2D2 is in low-power mode and they can't get information out of him?!?! Ummm, what kind of technology are you using that would allow that. His memory circuits should be very easy to remove and tap into. Plug him in to an outlet for goodness sake and re-charge him! Just a silly plot device. And why did he suddenly decide to start working again? Was he just waiting for Han to die? Ughh... bad!

6) Now that we have Finn cracking great jokes, can we just flush C3PO? He's beyond useless and just plain annoying. What is with the red arm? Will that be explained and does anyone care? Was it only there so he could crack the joke to Solo, "You probably did not recognize me with the red arm..."

7) So, the movie never articulated it, but I don't think Ren and Snoke are Sith. I think they are something brand new. What's more, I love that Ren seems to be taking the opposite course of a Jedi, who are told to release their feelings and remain calm. Ren is all about his emotions. The scene where he gets bad news and then destroys the computer panel in front of him with his light saber to then say, "Anything else?" was awesome and hysterical. The storm troopers turning around when they see Ren on the warpath was also great.

8) Anyone want to bet on the actual size of Snoke? I doubt he will really be 30+ feet tall. I'm guessing that is just a projection designed to make him look more imposing. I will be really disappointed though if he turns out to be Yoda-sized. That would be a cheap joke.

-Jason "I will have much, much more soon!" Evans

Jason, I largely had the same criticisms, but I think they are minor and I can live with them. Some thoughts:

1. Definite similarities, but mitigated by factors like (a) following an epic journey archetype; (b) if you include some of the same characters, they are bound to meet each other; (c) crazy fascists like the idea of building super weapons (see History Channel documentaries about WWII Germany); (d) Ren is obsessed with Vader and mimicking him; (e) even though Disney de-canonized a lot, presumably the Sith Rule of Two is in play; (f) destroying any part of the energy control system of a machine has a good chance of resulting in catastrophic failure.

2. I'm willing to buy that Ren was distracted when Chewie shot him. In addition to that, a lightsaber isn't any good against certain types of blasters. The Imperials made a gun to kill Jedi that shot three blasts at once (try deflecting a plane with a line) and some weapons have too powerful a blast. Given the emphasis they placed on the bowcaster in this film, I'm willing to bet that Chewie's is in the latter category. Once Ren was fighting Finn he was injured, but still dispatched Finn relatively quickly. In Rey's case I think the answer is two-fold: Ren is, presumably, not very practiced at dueling with lightsabers (how many Jedi are there to duel?). Second, Rey is experienced at fighting with her staff, and part of a force user's talent in sword-fighting comes from the force - it is plausible that Rey could hold her own against an injured Kylo Ren.

3. I agree but hope he does not return to the light. To me it would defeat the purpose of the scene and ruin the character.

4. Absolutely agree the map was a silly plot device; even as "we must find Luke" it would have worked better. However, it might turn out to be OK if it is adequately explained in a later film as part of a plan set into motion by Luke. That seems plausible, given that Poe's contact on Jakku seems to have definitely been in the know where Skywalkers are concerned (Who was that guy? The only thing that came to mind for me was Bail Organa but I thought he was gone with Alderaan; maybe he was an Alderaanian refugee? If Rey is related to the Skywalkers, perhaps he observed her from afar, as Obi-Wan once did with Luke?). Part of Luke's seclusion is explained by his failure with Kylo Ren; I have a theory about what he is doing and if I'm right I think it would make a lot of sense and connect the three trilogies well.

5. I agree, low-power mode was a very silly plot device. Hopefully (again) that can be mitigated with some explanation of Luke's greater plan in the next film. As for retrieving the information, there is no reason that would be possible if Luke used good encryption and other safeguards. The dumb thing is just "low power mode." The best explanation I can come up with is that Luke said, "I need you to keep this safe, Artoo. You usually get yourself into a lot of trouble; maybe just lay low and be an electronic cinder block for a while?" I think that's plausible, but why am I as the viewer having to come up with it?

6. I've always hoped Chewbacca would follow through on Han's implied threat and rip Threepio's arms off. Maybe that's what happened?

7. I think they're Sith, but we'll see. I also greatly enjoyed the treatment of Kylo's temper.

8. My guess is that Snoke will be slightly-larger than human. Given what has been released about certain retained extended universe canon and the manner in which Starkiller Base was powered, as well as the seemingly sudden appearance of a very powerful Sith, there is actually a potentially good explanation of Snoke's background (and it would make him non-Sith). Unfortunately his character's physical appearance seems to negate that theory, but I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.

In summary, I can't endorse every choice made in the film and certainly I have explicitly explained away some faults. Nonetheless, the fact that I am able to explain them away seems to me to be a very positive indication of the film's overall quality. I certainly can't do that for the PT. Only at a couple points would I really say, "Well that's dumb," and I could say that even in the OT (e.g. Making the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs? Luke playing with a model T-16 Skyhopper on Tatoonie then remarking to Biggs during the Death Star mission briefing that they used to pilot them and shoot indigenous wildlife? Yeah, right.). It was flawed but still very good overall, IMO. I will almost certainly see it again in a few days, and perhaps my perspective will be a bit more refined upon a second viewing.

[Wander]

Awesome!

I was worried that the movie would be too much like Episode 4. I agree with JE - it was done so well that I give it a pass, but I don't want to see something similar for 8 and 9. There were also enough differences for me. In particular, the fact that Rey wanted to stay on her desert planet (sharp contrast to Luke in 4), not waiting until 8 to reveal the identity of the bad guy, and letting Kylo Ren have scenes without his mask made me really happy. Kylo Ren's fits of rage are great, and while it is hard (impossible?) to top Vader, he's well on his way to at worst being the 2nd best villain in the Star Wars universe.

The death scene is one of the best scenes in the Star Wars series. The fact that it hits as well as it does even though everyone knows what's coming is great.

I have one complaint that I know only .00001% of the moviegoing population will care about. The first novels I ever read growing up not-as-a-school-assignment were the Thrawn trilogy, so they have an emotional attachment for me. In it, Han and Leia's kids are born - twins named Jacen and Jaina. Jacen eventually grows up to be a bad guy, and Jaina eventually becomes the main Jedi hero to save everyone from her evil twin brother. I know none of the books are canon anymore, and given that a lot of them were not of high quality, I know it's a good thing that we're moving on. But even if the plot is entirely different, the sequel trilogy is clearly telling the story of Jacen and Jaina (I assume everyone agrees there's a 90%+ chance the the main hero is also Han and Leia's child, right?) Would it really have been THAT big a deal to name him Jacen? It would have been a great nod.

A more minor complaint... I know the prequels are not well-loved, but Coruscant was a great addition. If we don't ever see it, that's just weird.

Great all around, though.

[luburch]

Best Star Wars ever and I'm not sure it's even close.

The map to Luke was a little hokey, but I' hoping for an explanation in the next films.

My biggest issue, which Jason touched on and we have seen multiple times throughout the Star Wars series, is how Fin and Rey were able to duel with Kylo Ren. Kylo is a trained Sith (Not sure why Rena and Snoke would be something other than Sith, btw??) so he should destroy either in a duel. Multiple times throughout the movie series people with little to no training are able to hold off/beat people with far significant experience.

Also I'm not sure Ren's fits of rage are all tat new. Vader used to have them as well. Sith use emotions, Jedi do not.

Amazing film. Can't wait to see it again.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I really enjoyed it, for fans it was nearly as perfect as it could be. Heres my highlights and things they could have done better list:

Best Parts:

-The X-wing vs Tie Fighter battles were the best that they've ever been. My favorite parts of the movies have always been the space battles. When Poe came back on screen leading a squadron of X-Wings I got goosebumps.

-I actually found the lightsaber battles to be enjoyable, they were choppy, unskilled and hectic and I think that's exactly what they were going for. None of the force wielding characters were full on Jedi or Sith lords so a hectic desperate lightsaber battle is exactly the right way to play it. Also there is something unnatural feeling about Kylo Rens lightsaber, I feel like it wasn't made properly. One of the last skills a Jedi learns is how to create his own Saber, and I feel like Kylo never got that far so he made is saber with less skill. Maybe that explains how Finn was able to stay in the fight so long using Lukes Lightsaber.

-Poe Poe Poe, He was my favorite character and it wasn't even close. I hope he gets more play in the next episode, or we at least get to see him crush some more in his X-wing!!! That's something all the previous 6 films cant hold water to.

-BB8, as the next cute fun droid in the series he did a great job...or I guess the movie did a great job using him and I really enjoyed him. I'm tempted to go buy the BB8 droid now.

Fin and Rey- The movies are in safe hands with those two in the mix. I had no issues with either one of their performances. really entertaining.


Things that werent great

-Kylo Ren, as a villian he isn't that imposing and he doesn't really strike feat into me. One of the things that made the original trilogy so great some may argue the thing that made the originals so great was Darth Vader. He was a bad guy who was awesome, scary, and just plain fun to watch. I found my self being annoyed by Kylo Ren a lot of the times. Reminded me of the whiny Annakin in episodes 1-3 which I am sure that what they were going for. But it didn't work in 1-3 don't see why they thought it would work here. Also he let the General talk back and even insult him on occasion, Vader would have force chocked him to his death.

Carrie Fischer- she didnt age well, and her raspy voice throws me off a lot. its nothing they can help and its good that she is in the film, but she can't be a focal point as the movies progress mainly because I find her hard to watch. It seems like they plan on transitioning POE into her position somehow which is fine for me so long as he still gets to fly an X-wing

R2- They could have struck gold with a few scenes with R2 and BB8. But they chose to have R2 in low power mode... which was just silly

-finally they need a heel that we can all hate and love to hate. As I said before Kylo doesnt cut it for me. Even when he killed Han, I knew it was coming, I knew they had to get rid of Harrison Ford one way or the other so it just didn't seem that evil to me. I feel like Disney killed Han not Kylo.



Finally, my last thoughts are where they go from here. Clearly Luke is going to be training a new Jedi, Kylo will be getting trained in the Dark Side as well, will we be seeing ghost Obi Wan, Yoda, and Annakin? and if they do choose to show them, why didn't Annakin come to Kylo at some point and show him that hey I tried the Dark Side, it really didn't work out... I'm assuming they are just going to completely ignore that plot line from the original series. Which is ok, but I would like some sort of explanation. I know after Luke restored order in Return of The Jedi they kind of faded away at the end but that doesn't mean they left.

I'm hoping for some good plot twists in Episode 8, I don't want it to be exactly like empire strikes back, as this one was very similar to A new Hope. Like if Rey goes and trains with Luke goes and confronts Kylo, finds out that she is his twin sister and gets her hand chopped off were going to have a problem. Clearly shes someones Child, it'll be interesting to see who her parent are and if it has any larger meaning as far as why she is strong in the force.

Ok thats all until I go see it a second time!!!

[JasonEvans]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

ok well my media black out before the movie came out made me miss that development. I figured he wanted too much money to be in it so they killed him off so they didn't have to worry about the next one.

And my point remains the same Kylo Ren Didn't kill Han, which made that scene emotional but not to the point where it makes Kylo a good enough villain. Hopefully he becomes more powerful and more imposing and I can get behind his Darkness and enjoy him. I like the look of his character as long as he keeps his helm on.

[luburch]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

Apparently HF did not want Han to survive through the original trilogy.

[freshmanjs]

-Kylo Ren, as a villian he isn't that imposing and he doesn't really strike feat into me. One of the things that made the original trilogy so great some may argue the thing that made the originals so great was Darth Vader. He was a bad guy who was awesome, scary, and just plain fun to watch. I found my self being annoyed by Kylo Ren a lot of the times. Reminded me of the whiny Annakin in episodes 1-3 which I am sure that what they were going for. But it didn't work in 1-3 don't see why they thought it would work here. Also he let the General talk back and even insult him on occasion, Vader would have force chocked him to his death.

he's meant to be an aspiring badass, but he's not there yet. he's immature, conflicted, and not nearly as powerful as he pretends he is. he's like a very immature vader. i lked that aspect.

[NashvilleDevil]

Best Star Wars ever and I'm not sure it's even close.

The map to Luke was a little hokey, but I' hoping for an explanation in the next films.

My biggest issue, which Jason touched on and we have seen multiple times throughout the Star Wars series, is how Fin and Rey were able to duel with Kylo Ren. Kylo is a trained Sith (Not sure why Rena and Snoke would be something other than Sith, btw??) so he should destroy either in a duel. Multiple times throughout the movie series people with little to no training are able to hold off/beat people with far significant experience.

Also I'm not sure Ren's fits of rage are all tat new. Vader used to have them as well. Sith use emotions, Jedi do not.

Amazing film. Can't wait to see it again.

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

[NashvilleDevil]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

I have read and seen several interviews with Ford in which he says he wanted Han to die at the beginning of Return of the Jedi. Since Han did not die it explains Ford mailing in the performance.

[weezie]

I'm just checking in to see if you are all ok. Anybody need a compress for the forehead or some paper bags to breath into?

[luburch]

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

I thought it was better than Empire, yes.

[freshmanjs]

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

Depends how you look at it. I have watched Episodes 4,5,6,7 within the last 2 weeks. Episode 7 is better than Empire on several dimensions - acting, writing, special effects among them. I think an objective, fresh viewing of the 2 side by side would suggest that 7 may be better (or at least that it's reasonable to see it as better).

If you are talking about impact relative to context (how it seemed at the time when it was released), then it is easier to make the case for Empire being superior.

My kids, for example, who are new to the series saw Episode 7 as clearly far superior to any of the originals.

[wilson]

This is not even a question. The Empire Strikes Back has Lando Calrissian, The Force Awakens does not.

[JasonEvans]

This is not even a question. The Empire Strikes Back has Lando Calrissian, The Force Awakens does not.

Does the fact that Force Awakens probably has Lando's son help at all?