This Week in the ACC: 11/23-11/29

[Wander]

He's potentially the best player in college basketball this year. But he's not right now -- and that's the only point I've been trying to make. He's still working on his decision making. His offensive game is very much a work in progress. He has an amazing ability to take the ball to the basket on the drive -- but is he even as good as Grayson Allen in that area? He has not demonstrated any kind of jump shot ... unless than happens, teams are going to take the drive away (as NC State did for the most part) and what does that leave him with? Well, he'll still be a very good distributor and a great rebounder ... but that doesn't make him the best player in college basketball either.

Who IS the best player in college basketball right now, though? This is a bit like the arguments that UNC or Maryland or Kentucky or whoever should not be preseason #1... there are lots of reasonable arguments to be made in support of that position, and they sound right, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE has to be #1, and those teams were as good of choices as any.

I think it's similar here. There's not a surefire #1 team this year, and to my eye there's not a surefire #1 player. Simmons' worst game involves 10 assists and 0 turnovers! There are definitely other players who might be better than Simmons right now, but none of them are DEFINITELY better right now. Grayson Allen needs more games to prove that horrible Kentucky performance was just a fluke. Buddy Hield has a strong argument and awesome stats but hasn't played anyone good this year yet. Etc. I'm not convinced that Simmons isn't one of the best, and maybe even the best, player right now. Or he might not be. It's too early to tell.

[Olympic Fan]

Who IS the best player in college basketball right now, though? This is a bit like the arguments that UNC or Maryland or Kentucky or whoever should not be preseason #1... there are lots of reasonable arguments to be made in support of that position, and they sound right, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE has to be #1, and those teams were as good of choices as any.

I think it's similar here. There's not a surefire #1 team this year, and to my eye there's not a surefire #1 player. Simmons' worst game involves 10 assists and 0 turnovers! There are definitely other players who might be better than Simmons right now, but none of them are DEFINITELY better right now. Grayson Allen needs more games to prove that horrible Kentucky performance was just a fluke. Buddy Hield has a strong argument and awesome stats but hasn't played anyone good this year yet. Etc. I'm not convinced that Simmons isn't one of the best, and maybe even the best, player right now. Or he might not be. It's too early to tell.

I would argue that the best player might be a guy who most elevates his team -- and Simmons, despite his glittering numbers -- has taken a preseason top 25 team and led them to losses in their only two competitive games.

I say again, he might become the best player in college basketball, but cherrypicking his favorable stats and ignoring the fact that he's come up short in the two most important games his team has played does not make him the best player in college basketball ... just the most talented.

[Billy Dat]

Simmons gets a Luke Winn scouting breakdown
http://www.si.com/college-basketball...couting-report

[CDu]

Simmons gets a Luke Winn scouting breakdown
http://www.si.com/college-basketball...couting-report

That's a pretty good breakdown of Simmons' game, and boils down to this: Simmons does everything extremely well except for shooting, and he shoots extremely poorly. Basically, the book is out on Simmons: give him as much room as possible and dare him to shoot open jumpshots. Take away the driving angles and force him to pass on the perimeter or shoot jumpers.

That's what Marquette and NC State did. And he was more than happy to pass the ball all over the court (especially in the State game). He made no effort to try to find/create driving lanes, just immediately passed before entering any sort of traffic.

His scoring game seems to consist of fast breaks, putbacks, and the occasional sneaky drive when he catches the defense out of position. But he just doesn't make jumpshots at all right now. That's a substantial limitation.

[Olympic Fan]

Another good victory for Wake Forest, beating UCLA in the third-place game in Maui. I know the Bruins are down this year, but it's still a good with for a lower echelon ACC team. Good trip -- wins over No. 13 Indiana and UCLA sandwiched around a loss to Vanderbilt.

The ACC was 6-0 Wednesday, but the only other significant result was Clemson's 18-point win over Rutgers in Vegas -- one of the worst ACC teams beating one of the worst Big Ten teams.

Wednesday's results make the ACC 58-11 in non-conference games ... 12-3 against the other power six conferences ... 4-2 against ranked opponents.

Got a sure loss Thursday -- Boston College vs. Michigan State and a sure win -- Notre Dame vs. Monmouth.

Two interesting games -- Georgia Tech vs. Arkansas in Brooklyn and Syracuse vs. No. 18 UConn in the Bahamas

[Olympic Fan]

in view of our discussion about national player of the year candidates, I thought I'd link Pomeroy's current standings -- based on his statistical model:

http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php

I don't think that's for-pay info but if it is, I should mention that he currently has Oklahoma's Buddy Hield at No. 1 ... Duke's Grayson Allen at No. 2.

The much debated Ben Simmons does not make the top 10 at the moment.

[Indoor66]

in view of our discussion about national player of the year candidates, I thought I'd link Pomeroy's current standings -- based on his statistical model:

http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php

I don't think that's for-pay info but if it is, I should mention that he currently has Oklahoma's Buddy Hield at No. 1 ... Duke's Grayson Allen at No. 2.

The much debated Ben Simmons does not make the top 10 at the moment.

But the talking heads all say he is the best player in the country. KenPom must be wrong!

[Olympic Fan]

Great afternoon for the ACC as Georgia Tech takes down Arkansas in Brooklyn, while Syracuse started slow, took command, then held off No. 18 UConn in the Bahamas.

That improves the ACC to 60-11 in non-conference games ... 13-3 against the other power six conferences and 5-2 against ranked opponents.

It's getting harder and harder for the skeptics (not naming names, but you know who you are) to deny that the ACC is off to an impressive start. The depth of the league is astonishing.

Okay, we're going to take a bit of a hit when BC meets No. 3 Michigan State in the Wooden Legacy in about an hour ... and we'll probably add a so-so win when Notre Dame beats Monmouth in Orlando at about the same time (although Monmouth did beat UCLA, so a decent midmajor).

There will be some really big games Friday -- Notre Dame gets the winner of tonight's Dayton/Iowa game -- which should tell us a lot about the Irish. Syracuse faces No. 25 Texas A&M (which upset No. 10 Gonzaga today); Georgia Tech gets No. 7 Villanova ... we do face another loss when VPI takes on No. 4 Iowa State in Florida, plus BC has to play a pretty good UC Irvine team. But NC State and Miami are at home and should add wins.

The ACC is rolling! That's good news for Duke -- all their wins elevate our RPI.

[CDu]

I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

Oy. Notre Dame couldn't hang with King Rice's crew. By the way, Rice looks like a frickin zombie. Anyway, ugly loss for ND and the ACC.

[OldPhiKap]

I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

There are a number of folks who think that Miami is the best team in the conference right now. And I tend to agree.

For now.

[CDu]

There are a number of folks who think that Miami is the best team in the conference right now. And I tend to agree.

For now.

I wasn't a believer in them before the season due to their inconsistency. But they made a believer out of me. Notre Dame and FSU, on the other hand, have yet to do so.

[Olympic Fan]

I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

Yeah, the Notre Dame loss -- by two to a very good mid-major -- was disappointing. But it doesn't change the narrative -- the ACC has showed surprising depth this season and continues to compile a far better early season record than any other major conference.

You can keep dismissing all the ACC wins as they pile up if you want. I'd rather point out that Arkansas -- the team UNC beat to get to the Sweet 16 last year (that was apparently so impressive a win that everybody picked UNC No. 1 this year) and projected No. 7 in the SEC this season -- fell to the team picked to finish 13th in the ACC this year, which also beat the team picked to finish ninth in the SEC. The team picked 11th in the ACC just beat the team picked No. 2 in the Big Ten, followed by a win over the No. 5 Pac 12 team ... and did that without one of their two best players. The team picked No. 5 in the ACC won back to back games over ranked teams. Syracuse, a team I had little faith in, just beat No. 18 Conn on a neutral; court. Our preseason No. 10 team hasn't beaten anybody of note, but they did lead the No. 10 team in the nation at the half before that game was cancelled.

Yeah, I'm disappointed in a few outcomes -- Notre Dame's loss was disappointing. So was NC State's loss to William & Mary. But State bounced back to beat mighty LSU and the anointed national player of the year and I feel certain Notre Dame will bounce back too.

When March rolls around, we're going to be arguing about whether the ACC is going to get 8,9 or 10 teams in the NCAA Tournament ... and maybe more than last year's five Sweet 16 teams.

I'm already pumped for Friday's games --

[CDu]

Yeah, the Notre Dame loss -- by two to a very good mid-major -- was disappointing. But it doesn't change the narrative -- the ACC has showed surprising depth this season and continues to compile a far better early season record than any other major conference.

You can keep dismissing all the ACC wins as they pile up if you want. I'd rather point out that Arkansas -- the team UNC beat to get to the Sweet 16 last year (that was apparently so impressive a win that everybody picked UNC No. 1 this year) and projected No. 7 in the SEC this season -- fell to the team picked to finish 13th in the ACC this year, which also beat the team picked to finish ninth in the SEC. The team picked 11th in the ACC just beat the team picked No. 2 in the Big Ten, followed by a win over the No. 5 Pac 12 team ... and did that without one of their two best players. The team picked No. 5 in the ACC won back to back games over ranked teams. Syracuse, a team I had little faith in, just beat No. 18 Conn on a neutral; court. Our preseason No. 10 team hasn't beaten anybody of note, but they did lead the No. 10 team in the nation at the half before that game was cancelled.

Yeah, I'm disappointed in a few outcomes -- Notre Dame's loss was disappointing. So was NC State's loss to William & Mary. But State bounced back to beat mighty LSU and the anointed national player of the year and I feel certain Notre Dame will bounce back too.

When March rolls around, we're going to be arguing about whether the ACC is going to get 8,9 or 10 teams in the NCAA Tournament ... and maybe more than last year's five Sweet 16 teams.

I'm already pumped for Friday's games --

Monmouth is a low-major, not a mid-major. They are a good low-major, but a low-major. That is a bad loss. And it is very much not the same Arkansas team: that team had the SEC player of the year in Bobby Portis. This team just lost to Akron. And you point to preseason projections, but those are meaningless. Indiana is clearly not the #2 team in the Big-10, and UCLA is not the #5 team in the PAC-12. And who knows if UConn is really a top-20 caliber team?

The Syracuse win may or may not be good. By that I mean, it is good for the conference but may or may not actually represent a win over a good team. Still, definitely better to win that than not.

I will be astounded if we are talking about 10 ACC teams in the field. I think 7 is more like it. Duke, UNC, UVa, Miami, and a few others will get in. Probably Syracuse, Louisville, and somebody else.

[Wander]

I think the bottom line is that it is simply too early to be making judgements about the ACC as a whole in either direction. There are just too many teams who just have not played a good opponent yet, and they are largely the teams that are probably going to be in the middle of the pack - Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, Louisville, Clemson, FSU (obviously not Pitt's fault with the canceled game). It's really impossible to be making judgements on how many teams are going to make the NCAA tournament. The ACC's start isn't impressive. It also isn't not-impressive. It's just... unknown, until we see more games against better opponents.

[CDu]

I think the bottom line is that it is simply too early to be making judgements about the ACC as a whole in either direction. There are just too many teams who just have not played a good opponent yet, and they are largely the teams that are probably going to be in the middle of the pack - Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, Louisville, Clemson, FSU (obviously not Pitt's fault with the canceled game). It's really impossible to be making judgements on how many teams are going to make the NCAA tournament. The ACC's start isn't impressive. It also isn't not-impressive. It's just... unknown, until we see more games against better opponents.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There have been some impressive wins: Miami with two big ones. There have been some bad losses: State and UVa and Notre Dame. And aside from that, there has been a lot of unclear value. I mean, it is good that we aren't losing a ton, but I am just not sure yet how good these wins really are.

[NSDukeFan]

Is it time yet for sagegrouse to mention that we need to have some mid season inter conference games to get a better indication of conference strength? This year may be different with the encouraging start to pre conference play for the ACC, as it seems every year there are some ACC teams that look terrible in early season out of conference play that round into form in conference play.

[Troublemaker]

Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

[CDu]

Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

Yep, they are looking good this year. Veterans Gbinije and Cooney, Lydon off the bench, and Coleman with size inside.

[dukelifer]

Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

Gbinije is playing really well. He has transformed himself into a very capable ball handler and shooter. The kid has a good chance to play at the next level. Good for him. Hard work pays off. The Cuse is dangerous. They play smart and have an above average backcourt- assuming Cooney doesn't fold midseason.