Brandon Ingram

[Oriole Way]

After watching Duke through 4 games, it's clear we have a talented, but young, team. There will be growing pains, but we have a good mix of upperclassman experience (Jefferson, Plumlee, and Jones), a potential star (Allen), and a talented freshman class with future impact players (Ingram, Thornton, Kennard, Jeter) who have taken turns struggling with different facets of the game, as well as showing glimpses of skill and potential. I like this team's chances of making the Final Four if the players can develop and stay healthy.

The most intriguing thing to me about this team at the moment is determining a starting lineup from game to game. I think we'll see changing lineups throughout the year based on matchups, hot and cold players, and (but hopefully not) injuries. I'd like to offer up a case for our best current starting lineup being one which brings Brandon Ingram off the bench as the 6th man for the next few games: Thornton/Allen/Jones/Jefferson/Plumlee.

I think one of the few takeaways from the Kentucky loss is that this Duke team is going to need a true point guard to run the show. That player is obviously Derryck Thornton, and Coach K quickly inserted Thornton into the starting lineup immediately following the first loss of the young season. The move paid off, and Duke's ceiling this year is directly tied to how quickly and effectively Thornton becomes Coach K's extension on the floor. But one of the issues with this team, which is ultimately a good thing, is that we have 6 players that all make convincing cases to be starters. Allen came off the bench against VCU and had a career game in terms of scoring. But moving forward, I feel Brandon Ingram should come off the bench for the foreseeable future.

Ingram has been horribly inefficient over 4 games. He's shooting under 40% from the field, under 30% from 3, and under 60% on free throws. Negative assist to turnover ratio. Averaging 2.5 fouls per 24 minutes which is fairly high. Allen got benched for one bad game and rebounded. But Grayson has been sensational in his other games. He rebounded from the worst performance of his career with one of his best. Ingram had a particularly poor game against Kentucky in which he was plagued by foul trouble. But unlike Grayson, Brandon's level of performance in the other 3 games has been mediocre at best.

Some people might claim that Allen is better suited to coming off the bench. They might look at him as a scoring sparkplug 6th man. But I strongly disagree. I believe that Allen is going to be a national player of the year candidate. He puts pressure on defenses and gets opposing defenders in foul trouble because he has such a great first step off the dribble. He has a great shooting stroke, an excellent ability to drive to the rim, and a developing mid-range game. He needs to start. Right now, he's our best player.

Our upperclassmen have played extremely well and, for the moment, deserve to continue starting. Matt Jones has played exceptionally well thus far, and he's too good of a defender to send him to the bench right now or any time soon. It also helps his case that he has Coach K's total trust. Amile Jefferson is playing and rebounding too well to be benched, and both he and Marshall Plumlee fill out the traditional PF and C spots well. They are seasoned vets in great physical condition. They provide exceptional rebounding in the post and consistently solid post defense, aspects no one else on the team has provided thus far. Ingram, meanwhile, is still skinny, still getting used to the extra weight he put on this summer, and yet to fully catch up to the speed of the college game. He should be the odd man out of the starting lineup. If Thornton started out on the bench for the first 3 games of the season based on his uneven play during the preseason, and if Allen got benched for a poor game against Kentucky, then it's only logical and fair for Ingram to come off the bench for a few games to work on his issues following a poor 4 games to start the season.

Ingram is likely a few weeks or longer from getting up to speed and having the light come on for him. I'd love to see him breakout against Georgetown, but it's not an easy matchup for him or for Duke in general. Starting spots must be earned, and Ingram doesn't deserve it right now. I'll be interested to see if Coach K makes a move with him any time soon if he continues to struggle.

[Devilwin]

After watching Duke through 4 games, it's clear we have a talented, but young, team. There will be growing pains, but we have a good mix of upperclassman experience (Jefferson, Plumlee, and Jones), a potential star (Allen), and a talented freshman class with future impact players (Ingram, Thornton, Kennard, Jeter) who have taken turns struggling with different facets of the game, as well as showing glimpses of skill and potential. I like this team's chances of making the Final Four if the players can develop and stay healthy.

The most intriguing thing to me about this team at the moment is determining a starting lineup from game to game. I think we'll see changing lineups throughout the year based on matchups, hot and cold players, and (but hopefully not) injuries. I'd like to offer up a case for our best current starting lineup being one which brings Brandon Ingram off the bench as the 6th man for the next few games: Thornton/Allen/Jones/Jefferson/Plumlee.

I think one of the few takeaways from the Kentucky loss is that this Duke team is going to need a true point guard to run the show. That player is obviously Derryck Thornton, and Coach K quickly inserted Thornton into the starting lineup immediately following the first loss of the young season. The move paid off, and Duke's ceiling this year is directly tied to how quickly and effectively Thornton becomes Coach K's extension on the floor. But one of the issues with this team, which is ultimately a good thing, is that we have 6 players that all make convincing cases to be starters. Allen came off the bench against VCU and had a career game in terms of scoring. But moving forward, I feel Brandon Ingram should come off the bench for the foreseeable future.

Ingram has been horribly inefficient over 4 games. He's shooting under 40% from the field, under 30% from 3, and under 60% on free throws. Negative assist to turnover ratio. Averaging 2.5 fouls per 24 minutes which is fairly high. Allen got benched for one bad game and rebounded. But Grayson has been sensational in his other games. He rebounded with the worst performance of his career with one of his best. Ingram had a particularly poor game against Kentucky in which he has been plagued by foul trouble. But unlike Grayson, Brandon's level of performance in the other 3 games has been mediocre at best.

Some people might claim that Allen is better suited to coming off the bench. They might look at him as a scoring sparkplug 6th man. But I strongly disagree. I believe that Allen is going to be a national player of the year candidate. He puts pressure on defenses and gets opposing defenders in foul trouble because he has such a great first step off the dribble. He has a great shooting stroke, an excellent ability to drive to the rim, and a developing mid-range game. He needs to start. Right now, he's our best player.

Our upperclassmen have played extremely well and, for the moment, deserve to continue starting. Matt Jones has played exceptionally well thus far, and he's too good of a defender to send him to the bench right now or any time soon. It also helps his case that he has Coach K's total trust. Amile Jefferson is playing and rebounding too well to be benched, and both he and Marshall Plumlee fill out the traditional PF and C spots well. They are seasoned vets in great physical condition. They provide exceptional rebounding in the post and consistently solid post defense, aspects no one else on the team has provided thus far. Ingram, meanwhile, is still skinny, still getting used to the extra weight he put on this summer, and yet to fully catch up to the speed of the college game. He should be the odd man out of the starting lineup. If Thornton started out on the bench for the first 3 games of the season based on his uneven play during the preseason, and if Allen got benched for a poor game against Kentucky, then it's only logical and fair for Ingram to come off the bench for a few games to work on his issues following a poor 4 games to start the season.

Ingram is likely a few weeks or longer from getting up to speed and having the light come on for him. I'd love to see him breakout against Georgetown, but it's not an easy matchup for him or for Duke in general. Starting spots must be earned, and Ingram doesn't deserve it right now. I'll be interested to see if Coach K makes a move with him any time soon if he continues to struggle.

Excellent take. Ingram will be a great one eventually, but has been very unimpressive so far.

[vick]

Some people might claim that Allen is better suited to coming off the bench. They might look at him as a scoring sparkplug 6th man. But I strongly disagree. I believe that Allen is going to be a national player of the year candidate. He puts pressure on defenses and gets opposing defenders in foul trouble because he has such a great first step off the dribble. He has a great shooting stroke, an excellent ability to drive to the rim, and a developing mid-range game. He needs to start.

Allen played 37 minutes. Who cares whether he started or didn't?

[DeBlueDevil]

Way too early. Keep in mind this is the first time any of these freshman have experienced this high level of play. K has started him for a reason. All of your points are very valid, but let's give the kid a little more than 4 games (1 of which against arguably the best team in the country) to figure it out. Brandon is by far not the only person on this team that hasn't been playing well. It's early. Be patient and let things play out. K will do exactly what needs to be done. For now, enjoy the ride.

[Oriole Way]

Way too early. Keep in mind this is the first time any of these freshman have experienced this high level of play. K has started him for a reason. All of your points are very valid, but let's give the kid a little more than 4 games (1 of which against arguably the best team in the country) to figure it out. Brandon is by far not the only person on this team that hasn't been playing well. It's early. Be patient and let things play out. K will do exactly what needs to be done. For now, enjoy the ride.

If that's what you believe, then why didn't that line of thinking apply to Grayson Allen? Why was he benched after one bad game? He's a sophomore with experience and the two highest scoring games to start a season by any Duke player since Johnny Dawkins. Why didn't he get a little more time than 3 games to figure it out? Why was it not "way too early" to have him come off the bench? Are you suggesting that Ingram deserves a pass because he's a freshman and talented, but Allen does not because he's not a freshman, and/or he's not as talented? Does Ingram somehow have more margin for error because of his size or skillset? Honest questions for you.

And by the way, I'm going to continue talking about it because I find it interesting. I enjoy discussing the team with fellow Duke fans. That's the primary purpose of this message board. So please excuse me when I decline to be patient and take it easy, and just assume Coach K will take care of it. I'm sure he will, but I'm still going to engage in a discussion about the team and what interests me about Duke basketball. This is exactly how I enjoy the ride. Please respect the fact I "enjoy the ride" differently than you do.

[Troublemaker]

It's possible. I can also see Coach just repeating the VCU starting lineup and then re-evaluating things after this weekend if Ingram struggles again vs Georgetown.

Allen played 37 minutes. Who cares whether he started or didn't?

Also this.

[duke09hms]

If that's what you believe, then why didn't that line of thinking apply to Grayson Allen? Why was he benched after one bad game? He's a sophomore with experience and the two highest scoring games to start a season by any Duke player since Johnny Dawkins. Why didn't he get a little more time than 3 games to figure it out? Why was it not "way too early" to have him come off the bench? Are you suggesting that Ingram deserves a pass because he's a freshman and talented, but Allen does not because he's not a freshman, and/or he's not as talented? Does Ingram somehow have more margin for error because of his size or skillset? Honest questions for you.

You're placing too much importance on "starting." When you play 90+% of the game, who cares if you start or come off the bench? It's not like Ingram is averaging 38 mpg and playing poorly. Psychologically maybe Ingram might lose confidence if he's benched whereas Grayson knows he has the cred of destroying Wisconsin in the championship game and not be bothered by coming off the bench.

I think Ingram should get as much time as he can handle to acclimate to the college game. Him and Kennard seems like players who need the game to slow JUST A LITTLE bit before they start dominating. All the signs are there.

[jv001]

I agree with your assessment of Ingram, but I don't know if benching him this early is the answer. I know K didn't start Grayson but I believe he knew Grayson would accept the challenge, plus Grayson came off the bench last year and did well late in the season. I think Ingram's problem is more of a confidence one. Especially in his shooting. Coach K has said that the young guys tie their game to how they are playing on offense. I was glad to see Kennard play a good floor game despite his continued cold shooting. He seems to get it. Just my take. GoDuke!

[YmoBeThere]

If that's what you believe, then why didn't that line of thinking apply to Grayson Allen? Why was he benched after one bad game? He's a sophomore with experience and the two highest scoring games to start a season by any Duke player since Johnny Dawkins. Why didn't he get a little more time than 3 games to figure it out? Why was it not "way too early" to have him come off the bench? Are you suggesting that Ingram deserves a pass because he's a freshman and talented, but Allen does not because he's not a freshman, and/or he's not as talented? Does Ingram somehow have more margin for error because of his size or skillset? Honest questions for you.

And by the way, I'm going to continue talking about it because I find it interesting. I enjoy discussing the team with fellow Duke fans. That's the primary purpose of this message board. So please excuse me when I decline to be patient and take it easy, and just assume Coach K will take care of it. I'm sure he will, but I'm still going to engage in a discussion about the team and what interests me about Duke basketball. This is exactly how I enjoy the ride. Please respect the fact I "enjoy the ride" differently than you do.

Because much of Grayson's issues that game were self-induced. He forced many plays he shouldn't have. I haven't seen this as a big issue with Ingram so far. IMHO, Grayson loves the coast to coast 1 man play too much.

[Oriole Way]

It's possible. I can also see Coach just repeating the VCU starting lineup and then re-evaluating things after this weekend if Ingram struggles again vs Georgetown.

Agreed, I think we see the same starting lineup tomorrow. But I'll be paying close attention to Ingram.

Honestly, it's a good problem to have. 6 guys playing well enough or talented enough to start.

[wallyman]

If that's what you believe, then why didn't that line of thinking apply to Grayson Allen? Why was he benched after one bad game? He's a sophomore with experience and the two highest scoring games to start a season by any Duke player since Johnny Dawkins. Why didn't he get a little more time than 3 games to figure it out? Why was it not "way too early" to have him come off the bench? Are you suggesting that Ingram deserves a pass because he's a freshman and talented, but Allen does not because he's not a freshman, and/or he's not as talented? Does Ingram somehow have more margin for error because of his size or skillset? Honest questions for you.

No one's being "benched." Seven guys, at least, play. Was MP3 "benched" because his minutes went way down Friday? Ingram may or may not start because only 5 of the 7 can. But Allen was our most important player despite not starting Friday and we'll need major minutes from Ingram whether or not he's one of the five on the floor when the game begins.

[DeBlueDevil]

If that's what you believe, then why didn't that line of thinking apply to Grayson Allen? Why was he benched after one bad game? He's a sophomore with experience and the two highest scoring games to start a season by any Duke player since Johnny Dawkins. Why didn't he get a little more time than 3 games to figure it out? Why was it not "way too early" to have him come off the bench? Are you suggesting that Ingram deserves a pass because he's a freshman and talented, but Allen does not because he's not a freshman, and/or he's not as talented? Does Ingram somehow have more margin for error because of his size or skillset? Honest questions for you.

And by the way, I'm going to continue talking about it because I find it interesting. I enjoy discussing the team with fellow Duke fans. That's the primary purpose of this message board. So please excuse me when I decline to be patient and take it easy, and just assume Coach K will take care of it. I'm sure he will, but I'm still going to engage in a discussion about the team and what interests me about Duke basketball. This is exactly how I enjoy the ride. Please respect the fact I "enjoy the ride" differently than you do.

Woah woah. Relax. I wasn't suggesting that you're wrong in your stance by any means. I am not suggesting Brandon deserves a pass at all more than any other player on this team. My response is just in the rationale that it's is very early. My response would've been the same for Grayson as well and I would've said K will do what needs to be done. In Grayson's case, K felt he served better coming off the bench.

I think many place way too much importance in starting and look at Grayson's not starting as a punishment. Having played basketball, there's some players whom actually prefer the 6th man role. Some players play well starting and others enjoy coming off the bench. Most just do what needs to be done to win. Manu Ginobli has spent years in a six man role, does that mean he's in the dog house or isn't good enough to start?

Grayson, had one bad game against a top 5 team. I fully expect him to bounce back as he already did scoring 30 off the bench. As I said before, all of your points are valid, I just feel a thread such as "benching Brandon Ingram" let alone ANY player on the roster is a bit much at this point given none of us have any clue how this team is going to come together. Again, not a discouraging debate but you have your opinion and I have mine. Don't get so defensive.

[Oriole Way]

You're placing too much importance on "starting." When you play 90+% of the game, who cares if you start or come off the bench? It's not like Ingram is averaging 38 mpg and playing poorly. Psychologically maybe Ingram might lose confidence if he's benched whereas Grayson knows he has the cred of destroying Wisconsin in the championship game and not be bothered by coming off the bench.

I think Ingram should get as much time as he can handle to acclimate to the college game. Him and Kennard seems like players who need the game to slow JUST A LITTLE bit before they start dominating. All the signs are there.

You make a very good point about Allen being more capable of flourishing in a bench role right away, since he's already shown the ability to do so. But on the flip side, if Ingram is going to have his confidence hurt by being demoted to the bench to the point it's detrimental to his development, he doesn't deserve to start anyway.

I think Thornton is going to be a special player, and he's more vital to Duke's success than Ingram (although of course, both players are going to be vital). The reason is that Duke sorely needs a point guard. If Thornton could handle coming off the bench while working on some of his game, so can Ingram. He's too talented not to be effective off the bench.

The thing I might be overlooking here is whether promises were made to Ingram and his family about playing time and starting. I don't think that's ever really been Coach K's style, so I'm assuming that's not the case, but I'm willing to accept it's a possibility. That scenario would make my case for benching him moot.

Either way, I don't buy the "who cares if you're starting if you're playing most of the game" argument. Players like Allen should start. The guys who get big minutes as 6th men, to use the NBA as an example, are usually undersized, excellent shooters, and/or poor defenders (i.e. NBA 6th Man of the Year players such as Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Lou Williams, Ben Gordon, J.R. Smith, Leandro Barbosa). Almost never does an NBA team bring their best player off the bench. My contention is that Allen is currently Duke's best player. He should play heavy minutes as a starter because, bottom line, I believe that makes Duke the best team it can be. You should start your best 5 unless you have an undersized or one-dimensional scoring sparkplug, or a rare exception like Manu Ginobili who excelled coming off the bench and preferred it, despite clearly being one of his team's best 2 or 3 players. Allen is not that kind of player. He shouldn't be a 6th man.

[DeBlueDevil]

You make a very good point about Allen being more capable of flourishing in a bench role right away, since he's already shown the ability to do so. But on the flip side, if Ingram is going to have his confidence hurt by being demoted to the bench to the point it's detrimental to his development, he doesn't deserve to start anyway.

I think Thornton is going to be a special player, and he's more vital to Duke's success than Ingram (although of course, both players are going to be vital). The reason is that Duke sorely needs a point guard. If Thornton could handle coming off the bench while working on some of his game, so can Ingram. He's too talented not to be effective off the bench.

The thing I might be overlooking here is whether promises were made to Ingram and his family about playing time and starting. I don't think that's ever really been Coach K's style, so I'm assuming that's not the case, but I'm willing to accept it's a possibility. That scenario would make my case for benching him moot.

Either way, I don't buy the "who cares if you're starting if you're playing most of the game" argument. Players like Allen start. The guys who get big minutes as 6th men, to use the NBA as an example, are usually undersized, excellent shooters, and/or poor defenders (i.e. NBA 6th Man of the Year players such as Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams, Ben Gordon, J.R. Smith, Leandro Barbosa). Almost never does an NBA team bring their best player off the bench. My contention is that Allen is currently Duke's best player. He should play heavy minutes as a starter because, bottom line, I believe that makes Duke the best team it can be. You should start your best 5 unless you have an undersized or one-dimensional scoring sparkplug, or a rare exception like Manu Ginobuli who excelled coming off the bench and preferred it, despite clearly being one of his team's best 2 or 3 players. Allen is not that kind of player. He shouldn't be a 6th man.

Well put. The only thing I can think of is there's at least 1 HOF coach that disagrees with you.

Clearly you're more qualified to make that judgement than him.

[Oriole Way]

Well put. The only thing I can think of is there's at least 1 HOF coach that disagrees with you.

Clearly you're more qualified to make that judgement than him.

Gotcha. None of us is Coach K so we shouldn't share our opinions about basketball or speculate about the future. I'm not smarter than him. Noted. Thanks so much for pointing that out to me.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Gotcha. None of us is Coach K so we shouldn't share our opinions about basketball or speculate about the future. I'm not smarter than him. Noted. Thanks so much for pointing that out to me.

Apologies if I am mistaken, but didn't you call for a talented young Quinn Cook to get more playing time to get more game experience early in his career when he was looking unwieldy and overmatched?

Ingram is widely acknowledged as one of the most talented young men in America. It's a thin line between building a young man's confidence, and putting him on the sidelines to watch and learn. This team is extremely young, and without some freshmen stepping up will be in a tough way come March. Grayson is a veteran by this team's standards and was forcing things too much against Kentucky.

I know that K's not above reproach, but I do believe that if you take a kid like Ingram and relegate him to the bench after four games, you risk damaging his psyche. I do trust K far more than myself (or you, no offense) to read the players in practice and determine who's game ready and who needs to sit for a bit.

[Pghdukie]

Big difference in playing in the Hi-School gym in front of 200 family and friends as compared to United Center and Madison Square Garden. Lets give the freshman a few more games to accumulate themselves to the pace of play as well as the magnitude.

[DeBlueDevil]

Gotcha. None of us is Coach K so we shouldn't share our opinions about basketball or speculate about the future. I'm not smarter than him. Noted. Thanks so much for pointing that out to me.

Not trying to frustrate you friend. I'm not questioning your stance. I just hate to see you so bothered over something this early in the season. K has tested many great Duke players over the years. I imagine this is more of the same.

You seem highly disappointed about Grayson not starting last game. With statements like "Grayson isn't a 6th man role player". Well, I'm sorry but who died and made Grayson J.J. Redick or Shane Battier. You insinuated that I said Brandon deserved a pass, well why does Grayson deserve one? Because he's a year older? Because he's had a few good games. How do you know Brandon isn't out performing everyone in practice? How do you know K doesn't feel Brandon is the best player on this team? Oh right, K promised his parents during recruitment. Let's start that speculation.

All I'm saying is I'm all for basketball discussion about this awesome Duke squad but some of your points while valid, in my opinion deserve a very basic response such as the one I gave.

[-jk]

Take it easy, folks...

-jk

[cptnflash]

Completely agree that based on what we've seen so far, the starting / most minutes lineup should be Thornton/Allen/Jones/Jefferson/Plumlee, unless matchups dictate otherwise. So far, Ingram has been reminiscent of Austin Rivers - lots of hype, high usage, low efficiency on offense, and limited intensity on defense. Like everyone, I hope he improves, but so far he's not one of our best 5 players and I'd like to see him come off the bench.