Welcome to Duke, Javin Delaurier!!

[brlftz]

Interesting discussion about athleticism. I see it this way, athletes (at any level) generally have two things going for them, athleticism and skill. Some guys max out one or the other. Some guys have lots of some and a good bit of the other. Some guys like LeBron or Kobe pretty much max out both. A guy like Jon Scheyer had a very high skill level and an OK level of athleticism. I think of Tyus Jones the same way. As I've gotten older, my athleticism has decreased but my skill level has actually increased.

So when someone says to me that a player is a great athlete. That's cool, it usually means that they are high on the athleticism scale. Now that same player may be somewhat low on the skill scale (and might find themselves on the bench behind a less athletic and more skilled player). Of course there's some overlap between the athletic scale and the skill scale. One other thing that comes into play with basketball, in particular, is size. Generally size gives a player an advantage. A bigger player generally needs less on both scales to succeed. If you have a SF, for example, who's 6'8" tall and another who's 6'5" tall and they are even on both the athleticism and skill scales, most of the time the 6'8" guy will be better.

Just my $.02

was getting ready to post something similar. if you want to include all the things that make someone good at basketball in the definition of "athletic", then it stops being a useful term for describing a player. things like dribbling, shooting, and passing are usually described as skills rather than athletic abilities, so when we talk about a player that is a great athlete but raw from a skill standpoint, we understand what that means.

[gep]

Hand-eye coordination and the timing it implies are the essence of basketball and far more important than running and jumping. However, when everyone has good-to-excellent hand-eye coordination, running and jumping become much more important.

I think Larry Bird "fits" into this... without being able to "jump". But he could dunk..

[gumbomoop]

Interesting discussion about athleticism. I see it this way, athletes (at any level) generally have two things going for them, athleticism and skill... A guy like Jon Scheyer had a very high skill level and an OK level of athleticism.

Yes, this makes sense, and makes me rethink my defense of Scheyer's athleticism in post #48. Maybe Jon was "athletic enough" but way more than "skilled enough." I might still argue that the 3 plays I referenced in that post were "athletic." They were all certainly "very highly skilled." But plenty of players whom I wouldn't label "athletic" do make impressive, even spectacular plays. Jon was such a smart player, blessed with a highly developed intuitive feel (court sense, location of players, game situation) combined with hand-eye coordination that was at times striking.

[Indoor66]

I think Larry Bird "fits" into this... without being able to "jump". But he could dunk..

But starting with a 6'9" platform helps the dunk ability - no matter how high he jumps!

[Bluedevil114]

Welcome to Duke, Javin. Another great piece from the 2016 class. Somehow this thread went sideways. We have pages on Lance Thomas not being athletic and not being abe to catch a basketball. Lance was an integral part of Duke winning a National Championship in 2010. He deserves our appreciation. He has nothing to do with Javin coming to Duke and the comparisons to Javin. Congrats Javin on the best college choice playing for the best basketball coach in the world. Next up Bolden and Giles.

[mattman91]

Welcome to Duke, Javin. Another great piece from the 2016 class. Somehow this thread went sideways. We have pages on Lance Thomas not being athletic and not being abe to catch a basketball. Lance was an integral part of Duke winning a National Championship in 2010. He deserves our appreciation. He has nothing to do with Javin coming to Duke and the comparisons to Javin. Congrats Javin on the best college choice playing for the best basketball coach in the world. Next up Bolden and Giles.

Thanks for redirecting the focus to Javin. Can we all just agree that some people have a different idea of what "athleticism" means?

Happy to have Javin as a future Blue Devil!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Welcome to Duke, Javin. Another great piece from the 2016 class. Somehow this thread went sideways. We have pages on Lance Thomas not being athletic and not being abe to catch a basketball. Lance was an integral part of Duke winning a National Championship in 2010. He deserves our appreciation. He has nothing to do with Javin coming to Duke and the comparisons to Javin. Congrats Javin on the best college choice playing for the best basketball coach in the world. Next up Bolden and Giles.

LT does have our appreciation. Scheyer does have our appreciation. Redick has our appreciation. Every basketball player who is low on the athleticism scale (NCAA standards) who produced results at Duke has our appreciation. You don't need athleticism to be successful in college ball. You can make up for it with intelligence and skill.

From what I've read, Javin already has a decent combination of athleticism (below and above the rim) and intelligence, and he's working really hard on the skill. And that will ultimately make him successful in college ball.

I'm sure that, when all is said and done, Javin will have our appreciation.

[jimsumner]

I've never talked to DeLaurier but know people who have.

So, hearsay, inadmissible in court.

But I am told that he is a classic "Duke kid," bright, engaging and articulate, an outstanding student and team-first player.

So, yes, those Amile Jefferson comparisons might be accurate in a number of respects.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I've never talked to DeLaurier but know people who have.

So, hearsay, inadmissible in court.

But I am told that he is a classic "Duke kid," bright, engaging and articulate, an outstanding student and team-first player.

So, yes, those Amile Jefferson comparisons might be accurate in a number of respects.

Yeah, Amile represents our school in an awesome way. He doesn't possess the humor of MP3 or the fun-loving attitude of Nolan, but he is so polished in front of the camera. Tough to find 25 year olds who are that polished in public. He reminds me of a young, tall, politician.

[BD80]

I've never talked to DeLaurier but know people who have.

So, hearsay, inadmissible in court.

But I am told that he is a classic "Duke kid," bright, engaging and articulate, an outstanding student and team-first player.

...

Sounds like an excited utterance. Admissible.

[JPtheGame]

Welcome to Duke, Javin. Another great piece from the 2016 class. Somehow this thread went sideways. We have pages on Lance Thomas not being athletic and not being abe to catch a basketball. Lance was an integral part of Duke winning a National Championship in 2010. He deserves our appreciation. He has nothing to do with Javin coming to Duke and the comparisons to Javin. Congrats Javin on the best college choice playing for the best basketball coach in the world. Next up Bolden and Giles.

Using past players as a basis for comparison is a way of talking about Javin coming to Duke. Its basically shorthand as we speculate about he will fit in and contribute. Pro scouts do it and I know the Duke coaches do it. How many times have we heard a recruit say something like, "They told me I would come in and fill the role that _______ did." We are all thrilled about every player Duke signs and using the names of past legends demonstrates that respect. By the way, I think Vrankovic has a chance to be a late blooming rebounding machine like Zoubek. I have no idea about whether he will match Zoubs in # of foot injuries.

[Bluedevil114]

Using past players as a basis for comparison is a way of talking about Javin coming to Duke. Its basically shorthand as we speculate about he will fit in and contribute. Pro scouts do it and I know the Duke coaches do it. How many times have we heard a recruit say something like, "They told me I would come in and fill the role that _______ did." We are all thrilled about every player Duke signs and using the names of past legends demonstrates that respect. By the way, I think Vrankovic has a chance to be a late blooming rebounding machine like Zoubek. I have no idea about whether he will match Zoubs in # of foot injuries.

I agree 100%. We use comparisons all the time to give us an idea of who a player is, where we think they will play and how they will fit in the Duke system. Oh and of course how many minutes they will play their first year. My issue was not the comparison but how Lance was getting trashed in a Welcome to Duke, Javin thread. Lance Thomas played a pivotal role that was vital to Duke winning it's fourth National Championship. He was a tremendous defender and that is all we needed from him that season.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree 100%. We use comparisons all the time to give us an idea of who a player is, where we think they will play and how they will fit in the Duke system. Oh and of course how many minutes they will play their first year. My issue was not the comparison but how Lance was getting trashed in a Welcome to Duke, Javin thread. Lance Thomas played a pivotal role that was vital to Duke winning it's fourth National Championship. He was a tremendous defender and that is all we needed from him that season.

Seriously? No one is throwing Lance under the bus. We're merely commenting on his athleticism. EVERYONE knows the value that LT brought to the championship team.

The season can't start soon enough.

[OldPhiKap]

Sounds like an excited utterance. Admissible.

res gestae is so old school. I am an FRE 405(a) man m'self. Maybe shoehorn under 406.

[Indoor66]

res gestae is so old school. I am an FRE 405(a) man m'self. Maybe shoehorn under 406.

Federal this and Federal that, pretty soon you have a 1,000,000 word tome.

[duke blue brewcrew]

I agree 100%. We use comparisons all the time to give us an idea of who a player is, where we think they will play and how they will fit in the Duke system. Oh and of course how many minutes they will play their first year. My issue was not the comparison but how Lance was getting trashed in a Welcome to Duke, Javin thread. Lance Thomas played a pivotal role that was vital to Duke winning it's fourth National Championship. He was a tremendous defender and that is all we needed from him that season.

I think you're taking what was being said out of context. No one said they didn't like Lance Thomas, in fact everyone said (me included), that we cheered like crazy for LT. No one said or took anything away from what Lance did to help the 2010 team, he played a tremendous role for that team as a blue collar player doing all of the little things, and making all of the hustle plays. What WAS said, was in response to a poster who implied that Lance was a contributor on offense THROUGHOUT his career at Duke. LT's total career at Duke is a very different thing than his Sr. year at Duke. I stand by my comments, in response to that assertion, and believe them to be realistic and true. The stats back up everything I said.

[Kedsy]

What WAS said, was in response to a poster who implied that Lance was a contributor on offense THROUGHOUT his career at Duke. LT's total career at Duke is a very different thing than his Sr. year at Duke. I stand by my comments, in response to that assertion, and believe them to be realistic and true. The stats back up everything I said.

Actually, the stats don't appear to back you up at all. While it's true that Lance's FT% was much better his senior year, by pretty much every other measure, 2009-10 was his worst offensive season at Duke. Worst FG% (by a lot), fewest points per 40 minutes (by a lot), fewest points per shot (by a lot), 2nd-most TO per 40 (freshman season was worse), even fewest shots per 40 minutes (so we can't blame the lower efficiency on taking more shots). I don't have tempo-free stats for those years, but if you think Lance was an offensive contributor his senior year, you almost have to admit he was a better offensive contributor before that.

[Indoor66]

Actually, the stats don't appear to back you up at all. While it's true that Lance's FT% was much better his senior year, by pretty much every other measure, 2009-10 was his worst offensive season at Duke. Worst FG% (by a lot), fewest points per 40 minutes (by a lot), fewest points per shot (by a lot), 2nd-most TO per 40 (freshman season was worse), even fewest shots per 40 minutes (so we can't blame the lower efficiency on taking more shots). I don't have tempo-free stats for those years, but if you think Lance was an offensive contributor his senior year, you almost have to admit he was a better offensive contributor before that.

...And this matters how in 2015? To my knowledge, Lance is a National Champion in 2010. He did what the coaching staff and team required of him.

[Kedsy]

...And this matters how in 2015? To my knowledge, Lance is a National Champion in 2010. He did what the coaching staff and team required of him.

Absolutely. And at the time I was a Lance supporter, while many on these boards denigrated him. National Champions come in many shapes and sizes. I suppose my point is our perceptions of Lance's (and many other Duke players') accomplishments are warped by the team's ultimate success or perceived failure.

To me, there's no point in comparing Javin Delaurier to Lance Thomas or Amile Jefferson or any other former Duke player. His resemblance in superficial areas like height and "motor" have little bearing to who he is and the impact he'll have on Duke basketball.

[Kedsy]

...And this matters how in 2015?

And, incidentally, appearing on the same page as you posting about Larry Bird's dunking ability and the Federal Rules of Evidence, I find your above question to be somewhat puzzling.