Countdown 2 Craziness?

[Olympic Fan]

I hate to show my age, but IIRC in 1973 the clock stopped after every made basket.

You remember wrong, the rule change occurred after the 1993 season. If you remember, in the historic 1992 NCAA game with Kentucky, Duke had to get a timeout called with 2.1 seconds left after Kentucky's Sean Woods stored to take the lead in overtime. K talked at the time about how proud he was that as the basket went in, every player on the floor signaled for a timeout.

The precipitating event for the rule change was the Indiana-Xavier game in the second round of the 1993 Midwest Regional in Indianapolis. Xavier hit a 3-pointer with 13 seconds left top cut the lead to 71-68. But Indiana's Damon Bailey took his time getting to the ball as the clock was running, He finally passed it to Calbert Chaney with 3 seconds left. The officials could have stopped the clock if they thought Indiana was stalling -- and Bailey later sort of admitted that he was -- but with 30,000 plus Hoosier fans in the Dome pulling for Indiana, none of the refs were going to give Xavier a break.

In the off-season, the rule was changed to stop the clock after a made basket in the final minute of the second half or overtime.

Here's a account of the '93 Indiana-Xavier game, describing the situation:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-...dwest-regional

Here's the official NCAA history of rule changes (not the change I'm talking about is listed as in 1993-94 -- the same time the shot clock was reducted from 45 to 35 seconds):

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_bask...2012/Rules.pdf

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[sagegrouse]

30 second shot clock will also mean more fouls on late drives, which means more delays, which means the game goes longer . . . .

The only games that will go longer, I believe, are the early games before Duke comes on TV.

[rocketeli]

You remember wrong, the rule change occurred after the 1993 season. If you remember, in the historic 1992 NCAA game with Kentucky, Duke had to get a timeout called with 2.1 seconds left after Kentucky's Sean Woods stored to take the lead in overtime. K talked at the time about how proud he was that as the basket went in, every player on the floor signaled for a timeout.

The precipitating event for the rule change was the Indiana-Xavier game in the second round of the 1993 Midwest Regional in Indianapolis. Xavier hit a 3-pointer with 13 seconds left top cut the lead to 71-68. But Indiana's Damon Bailey took his time getting to the ball as the clock was running, He finally passed it to Calbert Chaney with 3 seconds left. The officials could have stopped the clock if they thought Indiana was stalling -- and Bailey later sort of admitted that he was -- but with 30,000 plus Hoosier fans in the Dome pulling for Indiana, none of the refs were going to give Xavier a break.

In the off-season, the rule was changed to stop the clock after a made basket in the final minute of the second half or overtime.

Here's a account of the '93 Indiana-Xavier game, describing the situation:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-...dwest-regional

Here's the official NCAA history of rule changes (not the change I'm talking about is listed as in 1993-94 -- the same time the shot clock was reducted from 45 to 35 seconds):

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_bask...2012/Rules.pdf

.

Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

[wsb3]

Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

Showing my age as well. I recall the single foul shot..

[Skitzle]

Am I the only one amused by the underlying theme of this thread?

"Board Thread 1: Football is starting soon!
Board Thread 2: Is basketball here yet?"

[rsvman]

Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

Yes, although I have to say we didn't necessarily enjoy ALL the games.

I visited my father's place recently and he asked me to go through some old stuff of mine that was in boxes in his basement. Among other things, I found a column written by Devin Durant, who was a forward on the BYU basketball team at the time (circa 1980). The team had gone to play Hawaii on Oahu. Hawaii knew it was seriously outmanned, so it tried the slow-down. At the 7 minute mark in the second half, BYU had a two-point lead and Hawaii was still stalling the game. The BYU coach elected, because of the lead, to have the team sit back in a defensive stance and do nothing.

At that point, one of the Hawaii guards stood out on the wing but closer to halfcourt and just HELD THE BALL on his hip. This went on for FOUR MINUTES of playing time. Four minutes. No activity whatsoever. No dribbling, no passing, no offense, no defense. Absolutely nothing.*

Devin said that he offered one of the Hawaii players 5 pineapples if they would just attempt to play, but was refused. BYU ended up winning the game 44-43 on a Durant free throw.

Anyway, the upshot of Durant's newspaper column was to contemplate the idea of a shot clot, and apparently the idea was a radical one. His proposal was a 60-second shot clot. He said that 60 seconds would allow a team plenty of time to develop an offensive play/back-up play, but prevent the kind of mind-numbingly boring game that we had all just witnessed.

I think that Devin's idea was a good one, and maybe 60 seconds was too long. But I really liked the 45-second clock and I wish we could go back to it.





*(IIRC, even Dean's teams would at least dribble, or pass the ball from player to player. Boring, yes, but not as boring as watching a guy actually plant himself on the floor and put the ball on his hip for four minutes.)

[-jk]

I seem to recall a rule from before the shot clock that the trailing team on offense had to move the ball past the old hash mark - now used as the coach's box - every so often to (pretend to) advance the game, and when on defense actually (pretend to) defend. That's what forced ball movement in the 4 corners.

-jk

[Olympic Fan]

Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

You do remember correctly that until the mid-1970s, the first six common fouls were one free throw. That came into play during the 12-10 NC State win over Duke in the 1968 ACC Tournament. Duke held a 7-4 lead for most of the second half, but with minutes remaining, State started fouling. Since there had been no action for 35-plus minutes, they were trading one free throw for the chance to score a two-point basket. That strategy became more prevalent in slowdown games and coaches decided that the rule was unfair -- that it could reward a team for fouling. There was a push at the same time to make free throws late in the game optional -- that the team could have the choice of taking the ball out of bounds instead of shooting the free throws -- but that rule change failed.

Actually, until then mid-1960s, the clock wouldn't necessarily stop on out of bounds plays either. In the 1960 NCAA Tournament against St. Joseph's, Duke was up 58-56 when Johnny Frye missed a game-clinching free throw. St. Joe's rebounded, but when a Duke player (Howard Hurt?) knocked the ball out of bounds -- into the crowd at the old Charlotte Coliseum. It took an inordinately long time for St. Joe's Paul Westhead (the future coach) to retrieve the ball. By the time he threw it in, the buzzer was sounding. Jack Ramsey, the St. Joe's coach, went ballistic on ref Max Maxon for not stopping the clock on the out of bounds play (which he could have done ... just as modern refs can stop the clock if an inbounding team takes too long to get to the ball after a made basket).

Interesting historical parallel -- Macon, the ref who gave Duke a break in 1960, was a pitcher for the Braves in the majors. 32 years later, Bruce Benedict, the ref who screwed Duke in the NCAA game with Indiana, was a catcher for the Braves ... ultimate proof that over time, the breaks even out (although not always thanks to a pitching battery of the Braves).

As for the hash marks, that was indeed an attempt to speed up action. The marking (and the rule) were instituted in the early 1970s. Before that -- as in the 1968 12-10 Duke-State game or the 1966 21-20 Duke win over UNC -- there were no such markings. The hash marks, about 20 feet in from the midcourt, were an attempt to speed play without instituting a shot clock. The rule was that the trailing team had to cross the hash-mark periodically (I think it was every 10 seconds, not sure). If the team with the ball was leading or the score was tied, it was up to the defense to come out and cross the hash mark to force the action. Failure to do so was a technical foul. The idea was to prevent the spectacle of the 1968 Duke-State game, when State's center stood near midcourt with the ball on his hip, while the Duke defense stayed in a zone that didn't extend past the top of the key. During one stretch, the State center stood without moving for over seven minutes -- about that time, Bill Curry (the mouth of the South) told his radio audience "this is about as exciting as watching artificial insemination."

The hash mark rule did have a major consequence in one of the most controversial games in ACC history. Everybody remembers the scoreboard play that helped UNC tie Wake Forest in the 1975 ACC Tournament. But what we forget is that the scoreboard play only helped UNC force OT. In the overtime, the game was tied -- with UNC in the Four Corners, when Wake was whistled for a technical foul for not forcing the action. That call was the difference as UNC won 101-100 and went on to win the ACC title.

[devildeac]

I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

You do remember correctly that until the mid-1970s, the first six common fouls were one free throw. That came into play during the 12-10 NC State win over Duke in the 1968 ACC Tournament. Duke held a 7-4 lead for most of the second half, but with minutes remaining, State started fouling. Since there had been no action for 35-plus minutes, they were trading one free throw for the chance to score a two-point basket. That strategy became more prevalent in slowdown games and coaches decided that the rule was unfair -- that it could reward a team for fouling. There was a push at the same time to make free throws late in the game optional -- that the team could have the choice of taking the ball out of bounds instead of shooting the free throws -- but that rule change failed.

Actually, until then mid-1960s, the clock wouldn't necessarily stop on out of bounds plays either. In the 1960 NCAA Tournament against St. Joseph's, Duke was up 58-56 when Johnny Frye missed a game-clinching free throw. St. Joe's rebounded, but when a Duke player (Howard Hurt?) knocked the ball out of bounds -- into the crowd at the old Charlotte Coliseum. It took an inordinately long time for St. Joe's Paul Westhead (the future coach) to retrieve the ball. By the time he threw it in, the buzzer was sounding. Jack Ramsey, the St. Joe's coach, went ballistic on ref Max Maxon for not stopping the clock on the out of bounds play (which he could have done ... just as modern refs can stop the clock if an inbounding team takes too long to get to the ball after a made basket).

Interesting historical parallel -- Macon, the ref who gave Duke a break in 1960, was a pitcher for the Braves in the majors. 32 years later, Bruce Benedict, the ref who screwed Duke in the NCAA game with Indiana, was a catcher for the Braves ... ultimate proof that over time, the breaks even out (although not always thanks to a pitching battery of the Braves).

As for the hash marks, that was indeed an attempt to speed up action. The marking (and the rule) were instituted in the early 1970s. Before that -- as in the 1968 12-10 Duke-State game or the 1966 21-20 Duke win over UNC -- there were no such markings. The hash marks, about 20 feet in from the midcourt, were an attempt to speed play without instituting a shot clock. The rule was that the trailing team had to cross the hash-mark periodically (I think it was every 10 seconds, not sure). If the team with the ball was leading or the score was tied, it was up to the defense to come out and cross the hash mark to force the action. Failure to do so was a technical foul. The idea was to prevent the spectacle of the 1968 Duke-State game, when State's center stood near midcourt with the ball on his hip, while the Duke defense stayed in a zone that didn't extend past the top of the key. During one stretch, the State center stood without moving for over seven minutes -- about that time, Bill Curry (the mouth of the South) told his radio audience "this is about as exciting as watching artificial insemination."

The hash mark rule did have a major consequence in one of the most controversial games in ACC history. Everybody remembers the scoreboard play that helped UNC tie Wake Forest in the 1975 ACC Tournament. But what we forget is that the scoreboard play only helped UNC force OT. In the overtime, the game was tied -- with UNC in the Four Corners, when Wake was whistled for a technical foul for not forcing the action. That call was the difference as UNC won 101-100 and went on to win the ACC title.

I had forgotten the T. Yet another reason in a very, very long list to despise those lying, cheating bastards...

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

[devildeac]

My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

Dean started that, too. Right after he beat Naismith to the peach baskets (points toward brevity to give acknowledgement/credit/thanks for the assist). And Midnight Madness. And the four corners.

[sagegrouse]

I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

.

You tell 'em, OF. I was the clock operator in high school back in the, well... before the 1970s. In exciting games the fans would stand up suddenly, and I couldn't see. Back in those days, and in college as well, the clock DIDN'T STOP on out-of-bounds plays or other violations (travels, up-and-down), where there was a whistle. The clock DID stop on fouls. The problem for a temporarily blinded clock operator was to tell one from the other without being able to see the ref.

And, of course, the clock DIDN'T stop on made baskets, where there is no whistle at all -- just a hand signal. I assume, in the last minute, there is a whistle.

[Olympic Fan]

My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

If you can remember back to the 1936-37 season, then you are remembering correctly.

[neemizzle]

I just bought 4 tickets. Not sure if anyone else noticed they went up like this today.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketH...19&IN_PARKING=

[elvis14]

I just bought 4 tickets. Not sure if anyone else noticed they went up like this today.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketH...19&IN_PARKING=

Are these open to the general public or just Iron Dukes?

[neemizzle]

Are these open to the general public or just Iron Dukes?

I am general public and it let me buy them. Seating is priority to the Iron Dukes though. I'm assuming they'll place a location on my seats once they sort the Iron Dukes out.

[neemizzle]

There are three different price points. YOU CAN BUY THEM NOW FOR GENERAL PUBLIC.

$40
$35
$30

[MattC09]

I am general public and it let me buy them. Seating is priority to the Iron Dukes though. I'm assuming they'll place a location on my seats once they sort the Iron Dukes out.

I got my email last night that my tickets had been processed so Iron Dukes' priority is now over, especially if you can order different levels of tickets.

[jimsumner]

You tell 'em, OF. I was the clock operator in high school back in the, well... before the 1970s. In exciting games the fans would stand up suddenly, and I couldn't see. Back in those days, and in college as well, the clock DIDN'T STOP on out-of-bounds plays or other violations (travels, up-and-down), where there was a whistle. The clock DID stop on fouls. The problem for a temporarily blinded clock operator was to tell one from the other without being able to see the ref.

And, of course, the clock DIDN'T stop on made baskets, where there is no whistle at all -- just a hand signal. I assume, in the last minute, there is a whistle.

This is one of the reasons good coaches tried to preserve a timeout for the game's final seconds. I remember the 1986 ACCT title game between Duke and Georgia Tech. Duke led by three, Tech scored with about four seconds left to cut it to one (no 3-point shot in those days). Tech was out of timeouts and a Duke player (Amaker maybe) just held the ball out of bounds until the clock ran out.

This wasn't atypical. Lots of games ended this way and it wasn't aesthetically pleasing.

As an aside, Roy Williams isn't convinced that the NCAA won't go back and change the rule in the middle of a game. Thus, he makes sure to save a timeout or three. Just in case.

[Pghdukie]

Any idea of recruits that will be at CTC ?