UNC Athletics Scandal: New Violations Delay NOA Response

[BD80]

What's with the ageist references here late in this thread? I had some BRILLIANT professors at Duke who were in their late 70's and well into their 80's. Being approved to take classes with them was an honor in itself. And their classes took students to another level of thinking regarding the subject matter AND the ability to think in such a way and apply it to other issues.
Don't perpetuate stereotypes on DBR whether they relate to age, race, gender, etc.
It doesn't belong here. (Or anywhere else.)

And get off my lawn!

[Tappan Zee Devil]

What's with the ageist references here late in this thread? I had some BRILLIANT professors at Duke who were in their late 70's and well into their 80's. Being approved to take classes with them was an honor in itself. And their classes took students to another level of thinking regarding the subject matter AND the ability to think in such a way and apply it to other issues.
Don't perpetuate stereotypes on DBR whether they relate to age, race, gender, etc.
It doesn't belong here. (Or anywhere else.)

My comment was more to the point that they are using teaching notes from the 1980s.

[JasonEvans]

Keep in mind, UNC has yet to have an independent review. So far everyone has been hired and paid for by the University and had their scope of examination tightly controlled by UNC.

Will there ever be an independent review?

This is a bit problematic. A truly thorough examination would require a staff of dozens of folks and would likely take months. It would require going through records and pouring over hundreds of thousands of emails. Wainstein's bill via the law firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft was $3,111,385.17. So, if you folks are calling for an "independent" investigation that is not paid for by UNC, I would ask... who else should pay a few million for it?

I'm pretty sure that UNC told Wainstein to only look into AfAm irregularities because they did not want him to uncover improper classes or grades in other departments (I'm looking at you, Philosophy department and we all know about that absurd Military History class that was loaded with athletes and gave out tons of easy As). I would love to see something more expansive and complete, but I see no way it can be done without UNC paying for it.

And, truth be told, I'm not sure it matters all that much at this point. If some new report were to discover even more widespread academic fraud would that really matter? What UNC did is so huge in scope already, I'm not sure adding another 20, 200 or even 2000 improper grades/classes would really change anyone's opinion of Carolina or impact the NCAAs potential penalties. What I would like to see is some investigation of what Carolina has been up to the past few years. When that fateful powerpoint was shown to everyone with the fraudulent classes detailed and the words “THESE NO LONGER EXIST,” splashed across the bottom of the slide, don't we want to know if someone in the room asked, "Why can't we start up a new set of classes in a different department?" Put simply, I want to know how much work Jan Boxill required of athletes taking her Philosophy classes in recent years.

-Jason "you wanna talk about clustering... guess how many of Carolina's recent players are communications majors? PJ Hairston, Leslie McDonald, John Henson, Dexter Strickland, Kennedy Meeks, and Reggie Bullock. There's a ton of current players majoring in the highly difficult academic arena of Exercise and Sports Science... that's a legit major at a major university?!?!" Evans

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This is a bit problematic. A truly thorough examination would require a staff of dozens of folks and would likely take months. It would require going through records and pouring over hundreds of thousands of emails. Wainstein's bill via the law firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft was $3,111,385.17. So, if you folks are calling for an "independent" investigation that is not paid for by UNC, I would ask... who else should pay a few million for it?

I'm pretty sure that UNC told Wainstein to only look into AfAm irregularities because they did not want him to uncover improper classes or grades in other departments (I'm looking at you, Philosophy department and we all know about that absurd Military History class that was loaded with athletes and gave out tons of easy As). I would love to see something more expansive and complete, but I see no way it can be done without UNC paying for it.

And, truth be told, I'm not sure it matters all that much at this point. If some new report were to discover even more widespread academic fraud would that really matter? What UNC did is so huge in scope already, I'm not sure adding another 20, 200 or even 2000 improper grades/classes would really change anyone's opinion of Carolina or impact the NCAAs potential penalties. What I would like to see is some investigation of what Carolina has been up to the past few years. When that fateful powerpoint was shown to everyone with the fraudulent classes detailed and the words “THESE NO LONGER EXIST,” splashed across the bottom of the slide, don't we want to know if someone in the room asked, "Why can't we start up a new set of classes in a different department?" Put simply, I want to know how much work Jan Boxill required of athletes taking her Philosophy classes in recent years.

-Jason "you wanna talk about clustering... guess how many of Carolina's recent players are communications majors? PJ Hairston, Leslie McDonald, John Henson, Dexter Strickland, Kennedy Meeks, and Reggie Bullock. There's a ton of current players majoring in the highly difficult academic arena of Exercise and Sports Science... that's a legit major at a major university?!?!" Evans

Additional investigation would likely reveal that they are still covering up and lying to everyone about the true extent of the fraudulent scheme. Revelation of say 200 additional instances of cheating might not change our opinion of them as cheaters, but it would be instructive as to how forthcoming they've actual been (or not been) with the NCAA and SACS. But your point about who is going to pay for it is dead on. It seems no one has any real incentive to pay for and conduct much additional investigation. We probably just have to wait for the next Marvin Austin to get the ball rolling.

Also, I think we should be careful to distinguish between fraudulent schemes and easy classes. Every school has easy classes. Very few conduct fraudulent class schemes for 20 years.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Just for pure entertainment value, from IC...


UNCTarheel1984
Re: UNC Release on New Info Submitted to NCAA
Thursday at 7:51 PM

---

blueheaven71 wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- ibleeduncblue2 wrote:

if the ncaa keeps digging maybe they will dig deep enough to un-kover things in derham .. unc has balls to report stuff .. only wussies Kover up & hide stuff for years

bartholemew wrote:Is this university out of its freaking mind? If you dig deep enough, you will always be able to find something. If we keep this up, the NCAA will buy a home in Chapel Hill and never leave us alone.

---------------------------------------------

If Marvin Austin wouldn't have tweeted then wouldn't UNC continue to be covering up as well? UNC doesn't have the balls to report stuff, they have the stupidity to keep finding stuff to report. Let the NCAA move on! This is beyond ridiculous!

Word.

Plus, by now Carolina would have an NCAA Championship in football and probably two more in basketball.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Just for pure entertainment value, from IC...


UNCTarheel1984
Re: UNC Release on New Info Submitted to NCAA
Thursday at 7:51 PM

Plus, by now Carolina would have an NCAA Championship in football and probably two more in basketball.

Hell, lets just say they would have won everything every year.

Not sure how he figures BBall would have won anything more; they haven't been punished once yet. The ONLY impact they have felt has been in the last season with recruits smartly staying away. Those are guys who wouldn't have seen the court yet, anyway.

[Duke95]

If there's one thing that the NCAA investigation has uncovered, it's how stupid and delusional the UNC fan base really is.

[devil84]

-Jason "you wanna talk about clustering... guess how many of Carolina's recent players are communications majors? PJ Hairston, Leslie McDonald, John Henson, Dexter Strickland, Kennedy Meeks, and Reggie Bullock. There's a ton of current players majoring in the highly difficult academic arena of Exercise and Sports Science... that's a legit major at a major university?!?!" Evans

Actually, yes, Exercise and Sports Science is a quite legitimate major, and some majors within it are quite difficult. Over at UNC, within EXSS there are three undergrad majors: Sports Administration, Fitness Professional, and Athletic Training. The grad school swaps Exercise Physiology for Fitness Professional.

Required courses for undergrad degrees include Biology, Human Anatomy, Human Physiology, Biomechanics*, Neuromuscular Control and Learning*, and Physiological Basis of Human Performance*, among others. Most of these are lab science classes, not readily made into, uh, "independent study" or "paper classes." The asterisked classes are not needed for Sports Administration, instead needing Econ 101, Fundamentals of Sports Marketing, Finance and Economics of Sport, Legal Aspects of Sport, and Field Experience in Sports Administration. Let's guess what wing of the program athletes choose.

Why do I know so much about the department? My son is there in the Exercise Physiology grad program. Ex Phys has no faculty or students who have prior degrees from UNC. Like Roy, they don't give a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about UNC. Or, at least their revenue sports, anyway. Seriously...they don't really discuss anything about ACC football or basketball (triathlons, marathons, cycling, and weight lifting...now you're talking!). They are doing quite serious research in conjunction with medical and engineering departments that is absolutely fascinating. My son is working on his thesis in a study with an engineer at Duke, Dr. Brian Mann, and is also interning on a separate long-term study of exercise during and after breast cancer treatment at UNC. Some of the research is comparing the actual oxygen consumption of both highly competitive cyclists and organ transplant patients to their currently calculated VO2Max. Their findings will not only impact competitive athletes, but also may help tweak anesthesia procedures to be safer for surgical patients, among other conclusions.

Now, why Exercise Physiology and Sports Administration are in the same department...that's another matter. There is little overlap between the two, from what I understand. I see what my son is learning, and it's impressive. I'm not sure I'd say the same for the "Field Experience" course for some Sports Administration majors.

[Tom B.]

This thread was about to fall off the front page. Now, we can't have that happen, can we?

[moonpie23]

This thread was about to fall off the front page. Now, we can't have that happen, can we?

absolutely not....HEY!! i heard there were some cheaters over in chapel hill.......also heard that the misery office had expanded to super warehouse size !!

[JasonEvans]

Well, we can keep the thread alive with this little nugget of actual news: Michael McAdoo (not to be confused with failed hoops player James Michael McAdoo or successful hoops player Bob McAdoo), the former football player and well-known plagarist has turned UNC's delay tactics back against the University.

McAdoo filed a class action lawsuit against Carolina back in November claiming he had been denied an education because Carolina steered him into AfAm classes against his wishes. As you may recall, UNC tried to get McAdoo's suit tossed claiming the statute of limitations had run out. Well, now McAdoo (through his lawyers) says the new NCAA violations recently discovered by UNC actually prove that new evidence is constantly being found in this issue and the statue of limitations should not be expired.

IANAL but it sure seems like all the stuff uncovered in the past couple years would make a lawsuit viable. McAdoo did not know there was a university-wide scheme to prevent him (and others) from getting an education until very recently. The fact that UNC perpetrated this scheme against McAdoo several years ago shouldn't void the entire suit... I hope!

-Jason "I am dying to see a whole host of Carolina officials forced to testify under oath!" Evans

P.S. - I am sadly well aware that Carolina will likely settle this before allowing depositions to happen

[MarkD83]

Well, we can keep the thread alive with this little nugget of actual news: Michael McAdoo (not to be confused with failed hoops player James Michael McAdoo or successful hoops player Bob McAdoo), the former football player and well-known plagarist has turned UNC's delay tactics back against the University.

McAdoo filed a class action lawsuit against Carolina back in November claiming he had been denied an education because Carolina steered him into AfAm classes against his wishes. As you may recall, UNC tried to get McAdoo's suit tossed claiming the statute of limitations had run out. Well, now McAdoo (through his lawyers) says the new NCAA violations recently discovered by UNC actually prove that new evidence is constantly being found in this issue and the statue of limitations should not be expired.

IANAL but it sure seems like all the stuff uncovered in the past couple years would make a lawsuit viable. McAdoo did not know there was a university-wide scheme to prevent him (and others) from getting an education until very recently. The fact that UNC perpetrated this scheme against McAdoo several years ago shouldn't void the entire suit... I hope!

-Jason "I am dying to see a whole host of Carolina officials forced to testify under oath!" Evans

P.S. - I am sadly well aware that Carolina will likely settle this before allowing depositions to happen

If it is any solace the price for UNC to settle any lawsuits may be escalating the more they delay and deny.

Which makes me think of a request. Does anyone have a handy tally of how much this is costing UNC in terms of investigations they have funded, PR firms they have paid etc....

[OldPhiKap]

IANAL but it sure seems like all the stuff uncovered in the past couple years would make a lawsuit viable. McAdoo did not know there was a university-wide scheme to prevent him (and others) from getting an education until very recently. The fact that UNC perpetrated this scheme against McAdoo several years ago shouldn't void the entire suit... I hope!

"Judge, how can you expect my client to have known about this, when Roy Williams and Butch Davis themselves profess that even they didn't know?"


Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha

[porcophile]

This lengthy account is real “inside baseball” stuff, certainly more than many of you care to read, but since nothing else is being posted, please allow me --

Several people on this board have been perplexed by the docility of UNC’s faculty in the face of the administration’s bungling and the university’s disgrace. The proceedings of a recent Faculty Executive Committee meeting illustrate why that passivity continues.

The FEC met Monday to consider a resolution calling for a committee to be set up to “lead a campus conversation on the academic implications of the changes coming to college sport.” I'm reliably informed that this was a modified and somewhat defanged version of a proposal submitted last spring by the ad hoc “Athletic Reform Group” and tabled until this fall. In its modified form it said nothing specifically about UNC and its troubles, but adopting it would have been the first instance of the faculty actually doing something collectively

Predictably, the chair of the Faculty Athletics Committee, Joy Renner (more about her later) spoke in opposition, asserting that her committee "is already doing a lot of this" (having discussions) and that, in any case, these issues were in their purview. The next hour was spent debating whether the FAC or a newly appointed, independent committee should take charge of this campus discussion. The good news is that a number of members understood the need for a separate committee, not least because one of the things that should be discussed is whether Renner’s committee has been doing an adequate job of oversight. Ms. Renner remained adamant, however, saying at one point, “I can tell you that if there's a separate task force, my committee will not accept that. It would undermine us."

Renner also argued that the Faculty Council shouldn’t take a public stance on athletic matters anyway, because there are more important problems facing the university. If the Council spoke about athletics and related problems, “what kind of message would that send?” (This argument is rather odd, given that both SACS and the NCAA have criticized UNC’s faculty for failing to control the university’s athletic program.)

Finally, the Chair of the Faculty, Bruce Cairns, spoke to say that he respects "our faculty governance structure," and would be hesitant to upset it. He referred the modified resolution to Renner’s committee to see if they can modify it further to make it acceptable to them. This guarantees, of course, that nothing meaningful will come of this.

It has long been obvious to anyone familiar with the situation that Renner is a toady and a shill. Cairns, on the other hand, has made a good show of listening to all sides and of course he has been a great improvement on his predecessor, the odious ethicist Jan Boxill. But he has been a moderator (at best), not a leader, and the effect has been to render the faculty voiceless, even assuming it could agree on something to say.

[MarkD83]

This lengthy account is real “inside baseball” stuff, certainly more than many of you care to read, but since nothing else is being posted, please allow me --

Several people on this board have been perplexed by the docility of UNC’s faculty in the face of the administration’s bungling and the university’s disgrace. The proceedings of a recent Faculty Executive Committee meeting illustrate why that passivity continues.

The FEC met Monday to consider a resolution calling for a committee to be set up to “lead a campus conversation on the academic implications of the changes coming to college sport.” I'm reliably informed that this was a modified and somewhat defanged version of a proposal submitted last spring by the ad hoc “Athletic Reform Group” and tabled until this fall. In its modified form it said nothing specifically about UNC and its troubles, but adopting it would have been the first instance of the faculty actually doing something collectively

Predictably, the chair of the Faculty Athletics Committee, Joy Renner (more about her later) spoke in opposition, asserting that her committee "is already doing a lot of this" (having discussions) and that, in any case, these issues were in their purview. The next hour was spent debating whether the FAC or a newly appointed, independent committee should take charge of this campus discussion. The good news is that a number of members understood the need for a separate committee, not least because one of the things that should be discussed is whether Renner’s committee has been doing an adequate job of oversight. Ms. Renner remained adamant, however, saying at one point, “I can tell you that if there's a separate task force, my committee will not accept that. It would undermine us."

Renner also argued that the Faculty Council shouldn’t take a public stance on athletic matters anyway, because there are more important problems facing the university. If the Council spoke about athletics and related problems, “what kind of message would that send?” (This argument is rather odd, given that both SACS and the NCAA have criticized UNC’s faculty for failing to control the university’s athletic program.)

Finally, the Chair of the Faculty, Bruce Cairns, spoke to say that he respects "our faculty governance structure," and would be hesitant to upset it. He referred the modified resolution to Renner’s committee to see if they can modify it further to make it acceptable to them. This guarantees, of course, that nothing meaningful will come of this.

It has long been obvious to anyone familiar with the situation that Renner is a toady and a shill. Cairns, on the other hand, has made a good show of listening to all sides and of course he has been a great improvement on his predecessor, the odious ethicist Jan Boxill. But he has been a moderator (at best), not a leader, and the effect has been to render the faculty voiceless, even assuming it could agree on something to say.

As you mentioned above this is what SACS has asked UNC to fix. Anymore meetings like this and the FEC won't have any issues to discuss because UNC won't be accredited.

[davekay1971]

Wainstein's bill via the law firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft was $3,111,385.17. So, if you folks are calling for an "independent" investigation that is not paid for by UNC, I would ask... who else should pay a few million for it?

Maybe we could get a crowdfunding campaign going. I turn down regular requests from about two dozen presidential hopefuls these days, but I'd kick in 50 bucks to fund this! Who's with me?

[moonpie23]

i'd kick in a lot more than fifty bucks...if this were possible, i'd dip into my closet change jar stash...

[royalblue]

I would gladly make payments the rest of my life!

[DukeDevilDeb]

Once you are tenured, all you need to do is show up to teach your courses and attend the meetings of whatever committees you are placed on. And none of that needs to be done well.
(I speak as an academic with several 80+ year old professors in our department who refuse to retire and still use the same teaching notes that they developed in the 1980s).

However, you do need to keep publishing for a least a few years beyond being tenured to be promoted to full Professor.

I have been teaching here for thirty years and spend a significant portion of every summer reformulating, rewriting and deleting sections of my notes. Every one of my older (60+) colleagues does this same. The most popular teacher in our department is in his mid-80s. So please be careful what you say. In truth, no one could get away with this. But it is an urban myth that resurfaces frequently. There are some tenured faculty who should be gone... but many of them aren't even 60!

I hope you apologize to the many outstanding older Duke professors who continue to do an outstanding job.

[PackMan97]

This is a bit problematic. A truly thorough examination would require a staff of dozens of folks and would likely take months. It would require going through records and pouring over hundreds of thousands of emails. Wainstein's bill via the law firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft was $3,111,385.17. So, if you folks are calling for an "independent" investigation that is not paid for by UNC, I would ask... who else should pay a few million for it?

Take it out of the More at Four program. /shrug

I would say using Wainstein's bill is a bit of a red herring here, he was billing $1,000/hr for his services and I think his investigators were somewhere not to far below that. I feel confident that we could hire some folks that billed far less. The first place I'd start would be a statistical analysis of transcripts of all athletes that ought not cost but a mid five figures to find patterns and suspicious areas to investigate. Remember, one doesn't need to investigate the entire university and all the emails. One merely needs to start at the scene of the crime (the transcripts) and work their way back. Find courses that raise concerns and investigate those professors. If enough courses/professors get flagged in a department, investigate that department further. It's not rocket science and it sure doesn't need to cost $3,111,385.17.