2015 Minutes/Rotation/NBA Prospects

[Olympic Fan]

Best scorer: IMO, this is much closer than most believe. Chris scored 1,455 points at Duke which is tied for 27th all-time at Duke.

Play multiple positions: Chris, by far. He could play/back-up the 1-4 positions. We could have substituted Chris for anyone but Elton.

Embrace the concept: Chris, by far. Corey did not embrace the concept and this became a real issue.

Instant shot of adrenalin: IMO, this is close. Unlike Corey, Chris could have sparked energy on both sides of the court.

And Chris compiled those points over four seasons -- with by far the most coming as a senior in 2000.

In 1999, Carrawell scored 386 points in 1116 minutes ... Maggette scored 414 points in 691 minutes. While the point totals may be close, the points per minute demonstrate that Maggette was a MUCH more impactful offense player that season.

As for multiple positions, the only position that Chris played that Maggette didn't was point guard. They could both play the 2-3-4.

As for Embrace the concept, I was around that team all year and I don't know where you are getting the idea that Corey didn't embrace the concept. He was great all season ... and only grew bitter after sitting out the championship game.

As for Instant Shot of Adrenaline, all I can say is that we'll just have to disagree, Carrawell was an inspirational leader, but he was not an offensive creator -- as Maggette was. It's like arguing the difference between Matt Jones and Grayson Allen on last year's team. Jones was more like Carrawell ... Allen like Maggette (the earlier players were both better in 1999 than ones in 2015, but their relative roles were the same).

I also disagree with the idea that Maggette was the second best player that team. The second best talent? Yes. The second best offensive player? Maybe. But the second best player? No ... not even close. And the pros agreed -- he was the third Duke player taken in the draft (behind Brand and Langdon and one spot ahead of Avery, the point guard). Battier would go higher when he came out in 2001 (although he wouldn't have been that high in 1999).

Maggette was a freshman with some real offensive skills, but some real deficiencies. Duke was better with Carrawell and Battier in the starting lineup and with Maggette coming off the bench.

As for the success of the team -- the only failure was the national title game (the only other loss was in Alaska when several players were battling the flu). Win that game and we'd be talking about the '99 Devils as the most dominant college team in the last 40 years (since 1976 Indiana).

Yes, they did lose the title game to UConn. And I agree that under-usage of Maggette was a factor in that loss. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have started ... it means he should have played more as the team's Sixth Man.

[79-77]

Here's where we disagree. Why don't we use Jim's post to measure the best 6th man?



Best scorer: IMO, this is much closer than most believe. Chris scored 1,455 points at Duke which is tied for 27th all-time at Duke.

Play multiple positions: Chris, by far. He could play/back-up the 1-4 positions. We could have substituted Chris for anyone but Elton.

Embrace the concept: Chris, by far. Corey did not embrace the concept and this became a real issue.

Instant shot of adrenalin: IMO, this is close. Unlike Corey, Chris could have sparked energy on both sides of the court.



I disagree that 37 wins and ACC dominance is the best measure. The goal, and best measure, was winning a National Championship. We had the best team, got the match-ups we needed (6th was the highest seed we faced before the Final Four) , and should have won.

Corey was the 2nd best player on our team and he needed and wanted to start. Only Brand had a higher win share per 40 minutes played. Per 40 minutes, Corey (24.0 pts.) provided as much offense as Brand (24.2 pts.) and more than Langdon (22.3 pts.) or Avery (19.2 pts.). I disagree that adding his scoring to that lineup makes it worse. We needed points in the Final Four when we only scored 68 and 74 total points. I also disagree that the sole issue was not playing Corey at the end UConn game. According to my calculator, all points are equal and the real issue was barely playing Corey in the UConn game (11 total minutes, while all starters played 31+ minutes and looked like it at the end) because of the tension (over the issues we're debating) which had developed between Coach K and Corey.

FWIW, Carrawell was one of my all-time favorite Duke players. He was the ultimate glue guy. I would start him as a senior over Maggette as a freshman 10 times out of 10.

As for the UConn game, I admire Coach K as much as anyone does, but UConn played a smarter game than Duke did that night.

I hadn't heard about tension between K and Maggette. Did it relate to the Piggie affair?

[Jeffrey]

As for multiple positions, the only position that Chris played that Maggette didn't was point guard. They could both play the 2-3-4.

I'd say Corey was best suited for the 2 & 3. Chris was stronger and could guard the 4 better than Corey. How often did Coach K match Corey with a 4 on D?

As for Embrace the concept, I was around that team all year and I don't know where you are getting the idea that Corey didn't embrace the concept. He was great all season ... and only grew bitter after sitting out the championship game.

Good, then you may know, why did Coach K not play Corey more in the championship game?

I also disagree with the idea that Maggette was the second best player that team. The second best talent? Yes. The second best offensive player? Maybe. But the second best player? No ... not even close. And the pros agreed -- he was the third Duke player taken in the draft (behind Brand and Langdon and one spot ahead of Avery, the point guard). Battier would go higher when he came out in 2001 (although he wouldn't have been that high in 1999).

I think my previous post (below) does a better job measuring who was second best than the NBA draft selections. Those brilliant minds, who considered Langdon and Avery comparable to Maggette, burned early picks on players who were done in 3 years. IIRC, Corey played for 14 seasons. Elton was the only better Duke player in that draft.

Corey was the 2nd best player on our team and he needed and wanted to start. Only Brand had a higher win share per 40 minutes played. Per 40 minutes, Corey (24.0 pts.) provided as much offense as Brand (24.2 pts.) and more than Langdon (22.3 pts.) or Avery (19.2 pts.). I disagree that adding his scoring to that lineup makes it worse. We needed points in the Final Four when we only scored 68 and 74 total points.

[MChambers]

I'd say Corey was best suited for the 2 & 3. Chris was stronger and could guard the 4 better than Corey. How often did Coach K match Corey with a 4 on D?

My memory is that Coach K used Maggette against Udonis Haslem of UF in a December game. Anyone else remember that? He did a great job. Of course, Haslem could have been a 5.

[luvdahops]

My memory is that Coach K used Maggette against Udonis Haslem of UF in a December game. Anyone else remember that? He did a great job. Of course, Haslem could have been a 5.

I don't recall if it was the regular season finale in CH or the ACC tourney final, but Shane was ill for one of those games and sat out. Maggette - not Chris Burgess - replaced him in the starting lineup and absolutely torched Kris Lang to the tune of 24 and 10. Including one particularly posterizing blow by and slam from the right wing. Granted, that was only a one game sample, but it came against a quality opponent and left many Duke fans wondering if Corey's future might be as an uber-athletic stretch 4. Of course, we never got the chance to find out.

[Edouble]

I don't recall if it was the regular season finale in CH or the ACC tourney final, but Shane was ill for one of those games and sat out. Maggette - not Chris Burgess - replaced him in the starting lineup and absolutely torched Kris Lang to the tune of 24 and 10. Including one particularly posterizing blow by and slam from the right wing. Granted, that was only a one game sample, but it came against a quality opponent and left many Duke fans wondering if Corey's future might be as an uber-athletic stretch 4. Of course, we never got the chance to find out.

Ah yes, a Triple Crown. Nothing could be finer!

[Kedsy]

I don't recall if it was the regular season finale in CH or the ACC tourney final, but Shane was ill for one of those games and sat out. Maggette - not Chris Burgess - replaced him in the starting lineup and absolutely torched Kris Lang to the tune of 24 and 10. Including one particularly posterizing blow by and slam from the right wing. Granted, that was only a one game sample, but it came against a quality opponent and left many Duke fans wondering if Corey's future might be as an uber-athletic stretch 4. Of course, we never got the chance to find out.

Sorry, but after checking the game logs, this didn't happen.

Corey started three games -- the first against NC State in the ACC tournament (Both Maggette and Burgess started that game: Trajan missed the game entirely and Shane came off the bench for reasons I don't remember). In that game, Corey scored 24 but had 0 rebounds. The second game Maggette started was against UNC, in the ACC finals -- again Langdon missed the game but this time Battier started with Maggette -- and Corey had 11 points and 3 rebounds. The third game he started was the first NCAAT game -- again Trajan was out and Shane was in -- and Maggette scored 9 points with 3 rebounds. Based on the lineups, it wouldn't appear Maggette started at PF in any of his three starts. Certainly none of those starts included a 24 and 10 game.

In the other two UNC games, Maggette came off the bench: 5 points and 1 rebound in Durham and 14 points and 11 rebounds in Chapel Hill. I don't remember the posterizing dunk, but I suppose it could have happened in any of the UNC games.

[luvdahops]

Sorry, but after checking the game logs, this didn't happen.

Corey started three games -- the first against NC State in the ACC tournament (Both Maggette and Burgess started that game: Trajan missed the game entirely and Shane came off the bench for reasons I don't remember). In that game, Corey scored 24 but had 0 rebounds. The second game Maggette started was against UNC, in the ACC finals -- again Langdon missed the game but this time Battier started with Maggette -- and Corey had 11 points and 3 rebounds. The third game he started was the first NCAAT game -- again Trajan was out and Shane was in -- and Maggette scored 9 points with 3 rebounds. Based on the lineups, it wouldn't appear Maggette started at PF in any of his three starts. Certainly none of those starts included a 24 and 10 game.

In the other two UNC games, Maggette came off the bench: 5 points and 1 rebound in Durham and 14 points and 11 rebounds in Chapel Hill. I don't remember the posterizing dunk, but I suppose it could have happened in any of the UNC games.

Some faulty recall (and exaggeration) on my part, and shame on me for not checking the game logs before posting. But the game I was referencing was the regular season finale in Chapel Hill. Duke won 81-61. Shane sat out, Burgess did start in his place but played only 13 minutes. Corey played 22 off the bench, most of them at PF. He scored 14 points and pulled down 11 boards, while holding Kris Lang, his primary match-up, to 2 points. Moreover, the small ball lineup with Corey at the 4 was a big catalyst in turning a tight game (Duke led by 2 at the half) into a rout.

My recall on the posterizing dunk is not faulty. Lang appeared glued to the floor and totally helpless. It served as an exclamation point as Duke was pulling away in the second half.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketba...ameid=19990227

[luvdahops]

Some faulty recall (and exaggeration) on my part, and shame on me for not checking the game logs before posting. But the game I was referencing was the regular season finale in Chapel Hill. Duke won 81-61. Shane sat out, Burgess did start in his place but played only 13 minutes. Corey played 22 off the bench, most of them at PF. He scored 14 points and pulled down 11 boards, while holding Kris Lang, his primary match-up, to 2 points. My recall on the posterizing dunk is not faulty. Lang appeared glued to the floor and totally helpless.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketba...ameid=19990227

As for Maggette vs CC at the 4, I would disagree that Chris was stronger. Both were listed at 6-6 215, but even though a freshman, Corey looked bigger and more developed physically. He also rebounded at a significantly better clip that season - 8.7 per 40 minutes vs. 6.7 for CC.

All things considered, I think Maggette was a far better fit for the 6th man role than Chris. But he probably should have played more than 17.7 mpg, maybe a lot more.

[Jeffrey]

FWIW, Carrawell was one of my all-time favorite Duke players. He was the ultimate glue guy. I would start him as a senior over Maggette as a freshman 10 times out of 10.

Yes, Chris was a great college player. Fortunately, he was not a senior and played a key role in the rebuilding efforts the following season.

I hadn't heard about tension between K and Maggette. Did it relate to the Piggie affair?

No, Duke became aware of Corey's eligibility issues after the Final Four and that was why Duke was cleared of all issues. Clearly, this would have been an issue the following season if Corey had returned.

Coach K did not advise Corey to declare, like he did Elton. Coach K did not advise Corey to return, like he did Will. Coach K gave Corey two large files (one with reasons to return and one with reasons to declare) and Corey was told he had to make the decision.

[Jeffrey]

As for Maggette vs CC at the 4, I would disagree that Chris was stronger. Both were listed at 6-6 215, but even though a freshman, Corey looked bigger and more developed physically. He also rebounded at a significantly better clip that season - 8.7 per 40 minutes vs. 6.7 for CC.

I disagree, Corey was not stronger, but he was a much better leaper.

[CDu]

One of the main reasons Maggette played less than Battier and Carrawell throughout the year was defense. He was simply not good at it. By comparison, Battier and Carrawell were good/great defenders. Given the scoring punch of Brand, Langdon, and Avery - not to mention Coach K's affinity for defense - it made sense to play the guys who could be trusted defensively at forward.

In the title game, maybe coach could have played Maggette more and Carrawell less. That argument is buoyed by how poorly CWell played. I would DEFINITELY have had him on the floor for the final offensive possession. But Maggette got absolutely torched by Hamilton that night.

Having recently rewatched that debacle, I wouldn't have played Maggette much more than he played. What I would have done is give Brand a few more possessions off by running high ball screens for Avery. Virtually every possession involved. Brand battling for position in the post. He played really well, but ran out of gas. If we could have helped him out earlier by getting Avery going, maybe Brand has something in the tank at the end.

And if we ended up in a need to score possession, I bring in Maggette and lethim attack the rim.

[Jeffrey]

One of the main reasons Maggette played less than Battier and Carrawell throughout the year was defense. He was simply not good at it.

True, Coach K's main complaint was Corey's D and Corey's main complaints were lack of PT and Coach K's style. Corey was not overly kind describing Coach K's style.

My favorite Corey story: After the season was over, the staff expected Corey to declare and said to Corey that we need to schedule a press conference and announce you're declaring for the draft. Corey's response? He started running, ran to Elton's apartment, and hid in the closet. Dawkins and Wojo showed up, Elton said he was not there, they searched the place, but never found him. Afterwards, Elton tells Corey he needs to leave and Corey runs back to his dorm room, where Wojo finds him and takes him to Coach K's house. At K's house, is where Coach K took the two large files out and told Corey he had to be a man and make the decision.

[COYS]

One of the main reasons Maggette played less than Battier and Carrawell throughout the year was defense. He was simply not good at it. By comparison, Battier and Carrawell were good/great defenders. Given the scoring punch of Brand, Langdon, and Avery - not to mention Coach K's affinity for defense - it made sense to play the guys who could be trusted defensively at forward.

In the title game, maybe coach could have played Maggette more and Carrawell less. That argument is buoyed by how poorly CWell played. I would DEFINITELY have had him on the floor for the final offensive possession. But Maggette got absolutely torched by Hamilton that night.

Having recently rewatched that debacle, I wouldn't have played Maggette much more than he played. What I would have done is give Brand a few more possessions off by running high ball screens for Avery. Virtually every possession involved. Brand battling for position in the post. He played really well, but ran out of gas. If we could have helped him out earlier by getting Avery going, maybe Brand has something in the tank at the end.



And if we ended up in a need to score possession, I bring in Maggette and lethim attack the rim.

Interestingly enough, I feel like this year's title game against Wisconsin was, in a sense, a way for Coach K to get a chance to manage a similar situation, again. This year, it was little used freshman Grayson Allen who was unstoppable on offense. Coach K gambled and put him in the game when the team was at its lowest point, and he delivered with some incredible drives to the hoop and a clutch three plus some hustle plays on D. Obviously, Allen and Corey are not perfect analogs, or anything close. However, the benefit of having Allen in the game to create offense also meant that we didn't have to ride a struggling Jahlil who was in foul trouble and seemed out of sorts. As it turned out, Jah had plenty of energy at the end of the game to make two clutch plays down the stretch. Perhaps this in part due to the time that Coach K was able to leave him on the bench because Grayson was creating so much offense.

Oh well. All this talk of '99 bums me out. I became a Duke fan during that season after I spent a summer at Duke TIP. It was one fun season to be a fan, but that title game loss was absolutely gut-wrenching.

[jimsumner]

One of the main reasons Maggette played less than Battier and Carrawell throughout the year was defense. He was simply not good at it. By comparison, Battier and Carrawell were good/great defenders. Given the scoring punch of Brand, Langdon, and Avery - not to mention Coach K's affinity for defense - it made sense to play the guys who could be trusted defensively at forward.

In the title game, maybe coach could have played Maggette more and Carrawell less. That argument is buoyed by how poorly CWell played. I would DEFINITELY have had him on the floor for the final offensive possession. But Maggette got absolutely torched by Hamilton that night.

Having recently rewatched that debacle, I wouldn't have played Maggette much more than he played. What I would have done is give Brand a few more possessions off by running high ball screens for Avery. Virtually every possession involved. Brand battling for position in the post. He played really well, but ran out of gas. If we could have helped him out earlier by getting Avery going, maybe Brand has something in the tank at the end.

And if we ended up in a need to score possession, I bring in Maggette and lethim attack the rim.

You recently watched the '99 title game? Equal parts kudos and sympathy hugs. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it since then and it's been 16 years and three titles.

I did force myself to re-watch the '86 title game a decade or so ago but only because I was writing an article on that Duke team. Agony.

[Furniture]

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[CDu]

You recently watched the '99 title game? Equal parts kudos and sympathy hugs. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it since then and it's been 16 years and three titles.

I did force myself to re-watch the '86 title game a decade or so ago but only because I was writing an article on that Duke team. Agony.

Yeah, a discussion came up a couple of weeks ago that led to me re-watching to confirm my suspicions/memories. That game was my first experience watching a game on the big screen in Cameron - it was soul crushing, and I had to make the long walk back to Trent so deflated. Thankfully, two years later the experience in Cameron was much more pleasant.

Thanks for the ehug. I don't plan on ever watching it again.

[Richard Berg]

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Lots of new faces -- maybe add a caption?

[Furniture]

Lots of new faces -- maybe add a caption?

I had to look twice to identify Jabari and Nolan looks in really good shape!

[phaedrus]

Yeah, a discussion came up a couple of weeks ago that led to me re-watching to confirm my suspicions/memories. That game was my first experience watching a game on the big screen in Cameron - it was soul crushing, and I had to make the long walk back to Trent so deflated. Thankfully, two years later the experience in Cameron was much more pleasant.

Thanks for the ehug. I don't plan on ever watching it again.

Was it the game that crushed your soul, or living in Trent?