Len Bias

[Uncle Drew]

First off, much thanks to DBR for posting the Larry Bird You Tube clip. In the words of Charles Barkley, "that's one bad *** white boy". But every time I see clips of the Celtics durring their dominant 1980's form it always reminds me of one guy and pose the question, "what if"?

For those too young to have seen Coach K's first great Duke team featuring Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas etc. you were also too young to have seen one of, if not the greatest players in ACC history. David Thompson is always mentioned as perhaps the greatest ACC player ever, and the clips I've seen of him were truly dominant. Ralph Sampson had no equal at his position in college and his UVA team handed Duke it's worst ever defeat (43 points) in the 1983 ACC tournament. Carolina fans will always try and throw Michael Jordan into the mix, but even though he was voted player of the year he exploded AFTER he left UNC. Phil Ford was another great player for UNC but by no means as big a scorer as the previously mentioned players. And we Duke fans can always throw Christian Laettner into the debate, no ACC player EVER had the NCAA success he did and probably never will. But Laettner played with a great supporting cast, the cupboard is rarely bare at UNC when tallent is concerned, David Thompson had Burleson and others around him and even Sampson had some good outside guards to play with. One guy who finished his ACC career in 1986 had very little tallent around him yet was able to put up 40 points on Duke in Cameron Indoor Stadium, Len Bias. I saw that game in person and the only way Duke had to stop him was keep the ball out of his hands.

Len Bias died two days after being selected by the Boston Celtics with the second pick in the NBA draft from a cocaine overdose. The fallout from the tragedy eventually ended Lefty Driesell's tenure as coach of Maryland, and caused the program to fall onto hard times like it hadn't seen in years. A friend of mine who is a Maryland fan (yes we can be friends, we both hate UNC!) and I think Len Bias was the greatest ACC player of all time. The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had. And we also think had he lived (and not died of an overdose at some future time) the Celtics would have been a dynasty well into the 1990's. A year or two after Bias died is when Lary Bird started having the back problems that ended his career, if Bias had been healthy Bird could have played fewer minutes in Celtic blowouts. McHale, Ainge and Dennis Johnson were still in their prime. And you still had Robert Parish and Bill Walton to contribute as their careers neared an end. In my opinion if Bias had not died, you could wipe away the Pistons back to back championships and most likely the first Bulls threepeat. Jordan fans consider that plasphemy, but Bias was every bit as athletic as Jordan if not more so. He only lacked Nike and the NBA over-hyping him like Michael had. Oh well we'll never know, and I hate terms like "the greatest" because players with different team mates and in different systems is hard to debate. But I truly believe one of the things that made MJ the icon he was is the fact he had no arch nemesis like Larry Bird had with Magic. His natural rival died before his time and it's anyones guess how the past twenty years would look for the NBA and ACC had Bias lived.

[dkbaseball]

Yeah, Lenny was great, but he didn't have quite that much potential, IMO. An amazing body for hoops, great motor and athleticism, but he was a little rigid, a little bit straight up and down, which limited his offensive potential. I think he could have been a Dennis Rodman, with lots of offense (if he'd had anywhere near Rodman's interest in playing defense and rebounding), and that package would have made him an NBA great. But not quite on a level with MJ, Magic, Bird, and some other really creative players, again IMO.

I think he gives the Celtics a better crack at the Lakers in '87 and '88, rather than later on. By '89, the Celtic nucleus was getting some serious age on it. Bird had been in the league ten years, Parrish 13, Ainge 12, McHale 9 and DJ 15. Lenny was seen as the cornerstone of the next generation of Celtic teams.

Too bad we never got a chance to find out.

And of course, as an old-timer I can't give anybody but DT the nod for best ever in the ACC. Maybe he just stood out more against less athletic competition, but he was absolutely stunning to watch up close and personal.

[Uncle Drew]

I've only seen clips of David Thompson in action, I was 4 when he finished at NCSU. And he was extremely fluid, athletic and revolutionized the college game probably like no one since. I love the story about him being able to set objects ON TOP of the back board. That kind of jumping ability comes along probably once in a life time.

It's hard to compare players from era to era. I know for a fact the average player in college or the NBA today is MUCH more athletic overall than they were in 1974. And yet they are probably less fundamentaly sound as they were back in the day. Everyone has their opinion and I do respect yours and anyone elses. But Bias was a beast, plain and simple. Every freakin' time he touched the ball at MD he was double or tripple teamed. That's why I think he would have exploded much the way Jordan did in the NBA. They didn't allow zone defenses until a few years ago. Jordan ate other teams up and I think Bias would have done the same. Especially playing along side Bird, McHale etc.

Here's a question, for debate. Do you buy into the coke use / overdose was a 1st and only time thing? I've always found that one hard to accept, though possible. I know for a fact Lawrence Taylor was doing coke long before he ever made the NFL. I don't know how much boost / advantage if any cocaine would give an athlete. But it's also an intresting what if that applies to Len Bias.

[Indoor66]

But Bias was a beast, plain and simple. Every freakin' time he touched the ball at MD he was double or tripple teamed. That's why I think he would have exploded much the way Jordan did in the NBA.

All this applies to Thompson as well. Additionally, when Thompson played the Dunk was banned. He had to shoot all his shots. The Ally Oop was developed by Thompson and his passers, Towe and Stoddard.

[captmojo]

The greatest play I ever saw Bias make was an in-bounds pass he made to himself, under his own basket. He tossed the ball off the back of a Carolina player and catching it before it hit the floor, he went up and slammed it through the nets. All this in front of a stunned Dean Dome bunch who went home very sad. Beautiful!

[Uncle Drew]

The greatest play I ever saw Bias make was an in-bounds pass he made to himself, under his own basket. He tossed the ball off the back of a Carolina player and catching it before it hit the floor, he went up and slammed it through the nets. All this in front of a stunned Dean Dome bunch who went home very sad. Beautiful!

Yeah I remember that play VERY well. It was off Brad Daugherty's back, and that was UNC's first loss at the Dean Dome ever. One ironic thing about Bias and Thompson, they both ended up ruining their careers with cocaine. So since we're speculating here, how do you think Thompson would now be remembered in the NBA if he hadn't gotten hooked on the white powder?

[TheTrain]

The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had.

First of all, you are referring to Keith Gatlin (a longtime friend of mine) who was the starting PG. As for no other talent around him, that was true in 1986 when he had Gatlin, Speedy Jones, and Jeff Baxter as his primary supporting cast. But when he truly exploded in 1984 (his sophomore year), the Terps beat Duke for the ACC title with a team that included Adrian Branch among others. That was a deep deep Maryland team.

My father was the lead advertising sponsor for the Terps basketball program in those years and Bias was the best college player I have ever seen. Period. I was present for every home game of his career. As for the guy who called him rigid...quite frankly, you are nuts. His twisting moves to the hoop were a combination of power and grace that were a mixture of Barkley and Jordan. Blessed with a 44+ inch vertical leap, he had a turnaround jumper that was simply unstoppable...reminiscient of another Washington legend...Elvin Hayes.

While we are at it, the bouncing the ball off the back was Keith Gatlin...he bounced the ball off the back of Kenny Smith and laid it in at the end of the game. You are confusing it with the play in the 2nd half where he sunk a 20 footer and stole the inbounds pass out of the hands of Kenny Smith and did a 180 dunk. You can find the clip on YouTube.

[Uncle Drew]

First of all, you are referring to Keith Gatlin (a longtime friend of mine) who was the starting PG. As for no other talent around him, that was true in 1986 when he had Gatlin, Speedy Jones, and Jeff Baxter as his primary supporting cast. But when he truly exploded in 1984 (his sophomore year), the Terps beat Duke for the ACC title with a team that included Adrian Branch among others. That was a deep deep Maryland team.

My father was the lead advertising sponsor for the Terps basketball program in those years and Bias was the best college player I have ever seen. Period. I was present for every home game of his career. As for the guy who called him rigid...quite frankly, you are nuts. His twisting moves to the hoop were a combination of power and grace that were a mixture of Barkley and Jordan. Blessed with a 44+ inch vertical leap, he had a turnaround jumper that was simply unstoppable...reminiscient of another Washington legend...Elvin Hayes.

While we are at it, the bouncing the ball off the back was Keith Gatlin...he bounced the ball off the back of Kenny Smith and laid it in at the end of the game. You are confusing it with the play in the 2nd half where he sunk a 20 footer and stole the inbounds pass out of the hands of Kenny Smith and did a 180 dunk. You can find the clip on YouTube.

Train,


You are 100% correct in the tallent Bias had around him when they beat Duke in the ACC championship game in 1984. I of course was refering to his senior year, and to remember any name from that far back for me is a miracle. But you're right again, it was Keith Gatlin. As far as the particular play I am recalling it was Bias's (and MD's) first game at the Dean Dome. It opened in 1986 (Duke lost the very first game there that year.) Brad Daugherty's senior year as well. I have seen replays of the game on ESPN classic, and there are 2 seperate plays by Bias. One was the bounce of Brads back and dunk, the commentators even question why Dean Smith had Brad not face the inbound passer. The other was a steal and then backwards dunk by bias to seal the win. If you have a link to the You Tube clip post it. Let the clip back up what we agree on, that Bias was an athletic, awesome basketball player.

[4decadedukie]

I have an honest question that extends well beyond Len Bias. Let us stipulate that Bias was a superb athlete and a truly outstanding college player (which I believe he was). The term GREAT has been used numerous times in this thread, in referring to Bias. So, here is my question: Is character a necessary component of "greatness" or do competitiveness and athleticism alone suffice?

In a more-contemporary example, few would argue the Vick is an exceptional quarterback, but his alleged felonious activities certainly indicate a likely lack of integrity. Is Vick a "great" football player?

Finally, wasn't Shane Battier's leadership, ethics, off-court comportment, scholarship, outstanding decency, and so forth a fundamental reason many of us believe he was (and is) such a "great" Duke (and professional) star?

I am not trying to be a curmudgeon here; however, I increasingly believe that until fans demand character accompany athletic performance, the major and fundamental problems that plague collegiate and professional sports will only increase.

[Bob Green]

The greatest basketball player in ACC history is David Thompson. Enough said! No argument or discussion.

[Buckeye Devil]

I agree that Bias would have had a significant impact on the Celtics and they may have kept the Lakers from winning championships in the late 80's. I do not think that impact would have been enough to keep the Bulls from winning championships from 91-93. By that time, the Celtics were fairly old and could not have kept up with the younger Bulls.

The loss of Bias was the start of the demise of the Celtics as a powerhouse in the NBA, much to my regret as a lifelong Celtics fan. But I think that was an excuse that was long overused for their failures. The untimely death of Reggie Lewis was a huge hit also. But truthfully, I think any rational Celtics fan would admit that drafting has not been a strong point for the Celtics for a long time.

Granted, during the good years they did not always have very high picks. But the biggest impact player they drafted in recent years in my thinking was Chauncey Billups, but his impact has been with Detroit as the Celtics unloaded him.

At least they realize that they stink at drafting and with the moves this season have given themselves the best chance they have had in a long time to win-even if it only lasts for a few years.

[gw67]

In addition to Gatlin, I recall that Ben Coleman was the center on one or two of those teams and I believe that he played in the pros for a while. Other players, Adkins, Veal, Lewis (?) were ACC quality players but were not special.

Bias was a terrific player, particularly during his junior and senior seasons. Bilas has often stated that he was the best he played against. The part of his game that I really liked was his form and feathery touch on the 12-15 foot jumpers. Defensive players could be right in his face and he would elevate and hit the jumper. He also shot well from the free throw line and was a good rebounder. I don't recall him being either a good defensive player or shot blocker which was surprising given his great leaping ability.

gw67

[jimsumner]

Bob's right about DT. But Bias would be in the discussion for top 5. Keep in mind that he was ACC POY in 1985 and 1986, beating out a distinguished group that included Johnny Dawkins, Mark Price, and Brad Daugherty.

In 1986 Bias put on what may well be the best performance ever by a visiting player in Cameron. 43 points and this was against a GREAT Duke team. K felt that Bias alone couldn't beat Duke and he told Alarie before the game that he was on his own. Now Alarie was a splendid defender; he would hold Danny Manning to 4 points in the Final Four later that season. But he was helpless against Bias and that says something.

There is no doubt in my mind that Len Bias was a great college basketball player and likely would have been a great NBA player. The character concerns are valid but I think that's a different discussion, unless one has evidence that they (if they existed) adversely affected his performance on the court. And that's a pretty hard case to make.

[Carlos]

Bias had decent talent around the first two years he was at Maryland but the supporting cast dropped off in his last two seasons. The 1983 team had Herman Veal (Duke fans should remember him), Ben Coleman, Adrian Branch, and Jeff Adkins. Coleman and Branch in particular were both very good players. All 4 of those guys were back in 1984 when Keith Gatlin joined the team.

The next year saw the departure of Veal and Coleman so the team was built around Bias, Gatlin, Branch, and Adkins. In his senior year Branch was gone so it was Bias, Gatlin, Adkins, and Jeff Baxter whose role expanded.

My favorite memory of Bias was during that game in the Dean Dome he went up to block a shot somewhere around halfway up the lane. As he was going up the courtside mics picked him up yelling "Gimme dat." Bias didn't just block the shot he literally caught it with one hand and pulled it out of mid-air.

It was one of the most remarkable blocks I've ever seen.

[Olympic Fan]

A friend of mine who is a Maryland fan (yes we can be friends, we both hate UNC!) and I think Len Bias was the greatest ACC player of all time. The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had.

You and your Maryland friend should learn a little history before you start pontificating about Bias being the greatest ever.

In the first place, your statement that "the next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling" is so wrong-headed that I don't know where to start correcting it.

(1) Bias never played with a player named Chris Gatling. Maryland never had a player named Chris Gatling. There was a player of that name who played at Old Dominion from 1988-91. Could you mean Keith Gatlin, who was an excellent play-making guard in the Bias era (who long long held the ACC Tournament assist record)?

(2) As a freshman in 1983, Bias played on a team that was loaded with talent. He was the fourth or fifth best player that year on a team that included Ben Coleman, Herman Veal, Adrian Branch, Jeff Adkins, Jeff Baxter and Steve Rivers. (Coleman and Branch were second-team All-ACC; Bias finished third behind Mark Price and Johnny Dawkins in the ROY vote).

(3) As a sophomore, Maryland won the ACC and Coleman was the team's only All-ACC player. Bias had a great tournament and won the Case award as the MVP. But he had plenty of support, including Veal, Branch, Gatlin, Adkins.

(4) As a junior, Bias blossomed into the ACC POY, but surprisingly, Maryland was a very underachieving team, despite the presence of Branch (second-team All-ACC), Gatlin, Baxter and very talented young shot-blocker named Derrick Lewis.

(5) As a senior, Bias was again ACC POY and Maryland was again very mediocre. Branch was gone, but Gatlin and Derrick Lewis were back, along with a young big man named Tony Massenburg who would play more than a decade in the NBA.

So Bias actually played with some talented guys. Lefty's teams ALWAYS had talent. If you don't remember the likes of Adrian Branch(4 years in the NBA), Ben Coleman (seven years in the NBA), Keith Gatlin, Derrick Lewis (first-team All-ACC in 1987) and Tony Massenburg (13 seasons in the NBA), I'd suggest that you are not qualified to make statements like "Len Bias was the greatest player of all time."

Just do a quick comparison between Bias and Thompson:

As a sophomore (the first year Thompson could play), Thompson was ACC player of the year and a consensus first-team All-America. Bias didn't even make second-team All-ACC. He averaged a solid 15.3 ppg and 4.5 rebounds -- Thompson averaged 24.7 points and 8.1 rebounds.

As a junior, both players were ACC POY. Bias made three major second-team All-America teams -- no first teams. Thompson made every first-team All-America and beat out Bill Walton as national player of the year by the AP and Helms Foundation. Bias upped his averages to 18.9 points a game and 6.8 rebounds. Thompson averaged 26.0 points and 7.9 reb. a game.

As a senior, Bias had a great season. He was ACC POY and a concensus first-team All-America. But he didn't win a single recognized NPOY award. Thompson won his third ACC POY, consensus first-team All-American for the third time. He also swept every national player of the year award.

In his best season, Bias averaged 23.2 points and 7.0 rebounds. As a senior, Thompson averaged 29.9 points (he was over 30 all year until he suffered an injury in the ACC Tournament) and 8.1 rebounds.

Thompson was a career 55.3 percent shooter ... Bias was a career 53.6. We don't have assist, turnover, blocked shot and steal totals for Thompson, but he was almost certainly superior to Bias in all of those categories (Bias, as a senior, had 33 assists in 32 games -- he was basically a black hole; he had just 14 blocks, so he wasn't a shotblocker; he had just 27 steals)

My point is that Bias wasn't quite as good in his best season as David was in his worst -- and Thompson had three legitimately great seasons to one for Bias.

The argument that Len Bias was the greatest player in ACC history is a lot like the argument that Michael Jordan was the greatest ... its based on fuzzy memories of a spectaular player. In Jordan's case, those memories were tainted by his NBA excellence -- he IS the greatest pro player the ACC has produced. In Bias' case, the memories are tainted by the tragedy of his untimely death. He might have become a great NBA player.

Bias was a great player. He just wasn't the greatest.

[dukeENG2003]

Len Bias was a great player, but I don't see him as having revolutionized the game as Thompson did. Maybe its just the Duke blue glasses I see everything through, and my young age, but I'd have to put Laettner ahead of Bias as well. 48.5% career from 3pt range is still absolutely mind blowing, and to hold the record for NCAA tournament points scored shows consistent greatness when it counted the most.

He had a better supporting cast than either of Thompson or Bias, but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong.

In addition, one poster mentioned the "character" portion of greatness, and his revitalization efforts in Durham go a long way with me as well.

[dkbaseball]

As for the guy who called him rigid...quite frankly, you are nuts.

Could be. I didn't see him play that much. But as I recall him in my mind's eye, he had his limitations. I don't see him handling the ball, I don't see him passing it, and I don't really see him creating his own shot. (He could twist; it was the bending down parts of the game that challenged him. Some athletes just seem to have the need to stay in that regal, upright posture at all times.) But if you set up your offense to get him shots, and get him out on the break, you have a devastating offensive weapon. Though he had the physicality -- and more -- of a Rodman, apparently he wasn't too interested in playing defense.

Don't get me wrong -- he was an awesome talent. If you wanted to argue that he was one of the dozen or so best college players of all time, I wouldn't necessarily dispute it.

As to the character issue: I don't think we need to factor it in when it comes to drug use, because it factors itself in. It's the reason Thompson is not recalled as one of the all-time NBA greats. It's the reason Bias didn't have an NBA career.

[Indoor66]

He had a better supporting cast than either of Thompson or Bias, but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong.

I think the missed free throws were against Arizona.

[jimsumner]

"but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong."

You must have been napping in the first-half of the IU game in the '92 FF.

Laettner figures in the discussion for #2 behind DT, along with Sampson, Bias, Duncan, Ford, Jordan, and a number of other players but he wasn't infallible.

Speaking of Thompson. He was unanimous first-team All-ACC three times. Add that to the list of superlatives. One other player shares that distinction. While we're all sitting here, listening to the radio (ssshh, don't jinx it), watching TV and posting on DBR, can anyone tell me the name of the other player named unanimous first-team All-ACC three times?

[Carlos]

Hey, man, can't you at least give us a hint to your trivia question.