Not to make race an issue, but...

[throatybeard]

I'm still astounded to hear hatred against Paulus.

Throaty's first law of college basketball dynamics
Everyone hates everyone else's little white point guard.

[kjo3444]

A couple of qualms... besides the ones already addressed above.

Umm.. Michael Thompson transfered to Northwestern, which, the last time I checked, is in the Big Ten. Yes, the class of 06 lost in the sweet 16 3 times.. to an eventual Final Four team... and I like how you've selectively left out that they lost in the Final Four that "other" year in the de facto national title game to UConn. Additionally, when you quote things, it might be good to go ahead and link or reference the source.

Next time Psycho T gives us the big flex after a dunk over someone, remember that you appear to prefer a completely unemotional kind of player.

1. Northwestern is the weak sister in the Big 10 - it's not like they are Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, or Michigan...so while technically not a 'mid-major', I felt that was giving them more credit than "1 of the bottom 4 teams every year in their conference" would. And, more efficient.

2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.

3. Defacto 'final game' played in semis? I don't know about that. Don't think any NCAA games are 'gimmies', particularly the title game.

4. What would you like quoted? I'll see what i can dig up.

5. Never said I don't like emotional players - I'm just stating my opinion as to why Wojo, Collins, etc are not liked by opposing fans.

Emotion is good, and good for the game...but I'll agree with you - the next time Hansbrough slaps the floor or hits a shot midway through the game that leads to a opponent's timeout, and then runs and hugs his coach or jumps into someone's arms, I'll agree that is reason for someone to hate him.

[kjo3444]

Throaty's first law of college basketball dynamics
Everyone hates everyone else's little white point guard.

Disagree - I like Paulus. And liked Bobby Hurley, too - he put out about as great an NCAA performance I've ever seen from a 6 footer in that game in 1993 against Kidd and Cal, after Cherokee got hurt. Almost single-handedly won that game by himself.

[Spret42]

This is completely off topic, but I would just like to point out that when you lose in the sweet sixteen you have a 50/50 shot of it being to a final four team. This isn't a huge accomplishment.

I do wish I had the time to write about race and basketball and how it relates to Duke because Duke does occupy a very distinct place in the discussion considering the type of young men Coach Krzyzewski recruits, the school itself and the way the last 30 years of basketball have played out.

There is no bigger topic in basketball than race.

[throatybeard]

This is completely off topic, but I would just like to point out that when you lose in the sweet sixteen you have a 50/50 shot of it being to a final four team.

That assumes that the Region Final is a statistical coin flip, which isn't the case, because you're ignoring team strength. You might as well say every team in the field has a 1-in-64 (65?) chance of winning it all.

Sometimes the team that upsets a 1-seed in the s16 faces a low-ish seed. Sometimes they face the 2 or the 3 and are an underdog.

[devildownunder]

Good point on the overhyping, Kilby...I think that plays a role in it as well.

For example, Wojo was not good, despite Vitale and other media members consistently hyping him. And it is amusing that he was given so much credit as an incredible defender, largely because people needed to justify why K played him so much. (For evidence, look no further than Wayne Turner just absolutely abusing him during the 1998 NCAA game where Duke blew that 17 point lead with 9 minutes left, as William Avery sat on the bench, likely wondering why the F Wojo was even in the game.)

Likewise, the class that just graduated came in as the most overhyped recruiting class ever assembled. How many times was the "Super 6, BABY!!!" screamed about, again by Vitale and others? The "greatest recruiting class ever", that would "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame", yet they were knocked out in the Sweet 16 3 out of 4 years, Thompson couldn't get off the bench after transferring to a mid-major, Dockery was a defensive specialist with limited offensive skills, Melchioni was a 3-pt specialist with no other skills, and Shav's career was a complete disappointment (at best).

So i think you are correct, in that the overhyping plays a role (geez, just look at the poor year that 'certain NBA lottery pick' Josh McRoberts is having).

On a related note, I am a big fan of the way Paulus carries himself on the court - no trash talking, no floor slapping, no jumping into a teammates arms as a timeout is called, and no screaming after simply making a shot. JJ's quote that "he will be the next hated Duke player" is not correct, in my opinion. I like his game.

Almost no one called JJ's recruiting class the "super 6" that I can recall. Before those guys arrived on campus, only JJ was perceived as a can't-miss superstar talent. williams and shav were expected to be top-notch players eventually. The rest got very little advance hype, except as a part of Duke's large recruiting class. The Battier-Brand-Burgess class got tons of hype and the williams-boozer-dunleavy class got a good amount as well -- and for good reason.

I think you have a point about the hype but not even Vitale hyperventilating about jj's class. Now, about jj himself? That's another matter.

[devildownunder]

I'm not gong to call out individual players (but I do remember some good quotes). The point is mainly about the media. Every year, because Duke has set the standard you'll see stories about how Duke and K do it the right way. I'm all for it. You need that attitude that you're the best to be the best. However, the backlash is inevitable. My phone rings off the hook anytime Duke loses, and I am very wary not to lay it on too thick when talking with other fans.

Other fans are never going to cut you an ounce of slack as a Duke fan, even if you are as quiet and unassuming as humanly possible. So if you feel like being obnoxious, why let the repercussions stop you? They'll be on you anyway.

And as far as what players have to say about the school, what are the kids supposed to say, "Duke is awful, I hate playing here"?

[Spret42]

I suppose that is true. At the same time, when a team gets to the elite eight, it is because they are good enough to play with and beat anyone. For my money, you throw records, seeding and ranks out the window when a team gets to the elite 8. At that point, everyone is just playing basketball and your chances of winning it all are as good as the other seven teams in the round.

But I may be simplifying things a bit. I have been often been accused of being simple.

[phaedrus]

2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.

50/50 that it happens once, maybe. When it happens three times in a row, the odds are 1 in 8.

The point isn't that it was statistically unlikely, though, it's that we got "upset" by very good teams. Last year, 4 seed LSU went on to beat 2 seed Texas, and the year before, 5 seed Michigan State beat 2 seed kentucky. No shame in losing to very good teams that get hot at the right time.

[kjo3444]

Almost no one called JJ's recruiting class the "super 6" that I can recall. Before those guys arrived on campus, only JJ was perceived as a can't-miss superstar talent. williams and shav were expected to be top-notch players eventually. The rest got very little advance hype, except as a part of Duke's large recruiting class. The Battier-Brand-Burgess class got tons of hype and the williams-boozer-dunleavy class got a good amount as well -- and for good reason.

I think you have a point about the hype but not even Vitale hyperventilating about jj's class. Now, about jj himself? That's another matter.

Almost nobody called them the Super 6? This is what i could find after 2 minutes of googling...

http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=103090

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=144874

http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=44408

http://6news.kusports.com/news/mens_hoop_recruiting/story/68510

""Everybody around here calls it the 'Super Six.' Dave Telep (bluechiprecruits.com) calls it the 'Selected Six,'" said Al Featherston of the Durham Herald-Sun. "It's the 'Selected Six' because (Duke coach) Mike Krzyzewski selected those six and got them all."

http://www.bigbadreviews.com/2004/10/duke-eyes-recruits-to-fill-gaps.html

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2003/09/24/Sports/Commentary.The.New.Way.To.Recruit-1464966.shtml

Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

[Spret42]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that those six young men were not very highly rated as basketball players when they arrived at Duke. They were very good, highly rated and fully capable of winning a ton of games.

It would be stupid to say that their losing in the sweet sixteen 3 out of 4 years was in some way a failure. Look, the other guy was trying just as hard. He made plays and won the damned game.

The one year that group made the Final Four was the one year they had a guy that was pure platinum in Luol Deng. Anyone who pays attention to the NBA can see that Deng can play basketball. I personally attribute 75% of Duke's success to the damned players on the court. It is their talent and their ability that wins games. Red Auerbach won countless titles with 7 basic plays and by putting the right combination of tremendous talent and skill together in the players on the floor.

You keep Deng for one more year and Duke wins the NCAA title. Without him, the other guy won.

[phaedrus]

Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

it's hard to discern what you're arguing for at this point. you start out by saying they were overhyped (presumably you found this offensive) - then you concede that 5 of them were, in fact, among the top high schoolers in the country. which is it?

by the way, i don't recall the fab five winning a championship either.

[MulletMan]

1. Northwestern is the weak sister in the Big 10 - it's not like they are Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, or Michigan...so while technically not a 'mid-major', I felt that was giving them more credit than "1 of the bottom 4 teams every year in their conference" would. And, more efficient.

2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.

3. Defacto 'final game' played in semis? I don't know about that. Don't think any NCAA games are 'gimmies', particularly the title game.

4. What would you like quoted? I'll see what i can dig up.

5. Never said I don't like emotional players - I'm just stating my opinion as to why Wojo, Collins, etc are not liked by opposing fans.

Emotion is good, and good for the game...but I'll agree with you - the next time Hansbrough slaps the floor or hits a shot midway through the game that leads to a opponent's timeout, and then runs and hugs his coach or jumps into someone's arms, I'll agree that is reason for someone to hate him.

1. Well... for one thing, conference affiliation is not subjective. Northwestern is in the Big Ten. Period. And to say that they're not this program or that program is ridiculous. They're NOT a mid-major.

2. The odds are not 50/50 exactly if you consider all of the possible probability and statistics involved, as Throaty pointed out, but, my point is this.. in their first season, that class lost to Kansas (national runner-up), in thier second they lost to eventual NC UConn in the Final Four, in thier 3rd year they lost to Michigan State (too bad they lost to a mid-major) and in thier senior year they lost to LSU (national runner-up). The point being that they always lost to the regional champion, and that most schools would kill for such a class.

3. Pardon my wording. Yes, all the games count. However, a number of talking heads considered that UConn-Duke game the matchup of the two best teams in the Final Four that year. My point, however, was that in your asessment of the JJ/Shelden class, you happened to leave out the fact that they won a regional title and played in the Final Four, losing by 1 point to the eventual national champion. Again, I would hardly label that as a failure. Especially when you are comparing that class' collective achievements to the Fab 5, who according to the NCAA and the Big Ten, never even made it to a Final Four.

4. The exact things I was refering to, as I had heard some variation of The Super Six, were the quoted "greatest recruiting class ever" and "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame". The former of which has probably been used to describe a class at some school every year for the past 10 years.

5. I didn't ask you what you would do the next time that Hansbrough did something that Collins, Wojo or any other Duke player did. I asked what your opinion is of what Tyler does? Is his emotion OK when he screams after a big dunk? Why is that fine, but not slapping the floor?

Oh wait... I see it... the double standard.

[throatybeard]

You keep Deng for one more year and Duke wins the NCAA title.

You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

[Lord Ash]

If I may...

First off, the hatred of Wojo is STUPID. I mean, just plain stupid. He won National Defensive Player of the Year, was an honorable mention All American, and had the second most steals in a season ever at Duke, which has taken home the award NDPotY award EIGHT of the last 20 years or something ridiculous like that. Sure, Wojo wasn't cutting to the hoop and dunking it, but he was a perfectly good player, and one who ANYONE at the time would have taken on their own team in a second.

Second... so here, back to the topic of race... why DOES Duke feature SO many white players in the rotation compared to the other schools in the ACC? It is certainly a bit different... is this really just blind luck? Do academics figure in? Does Coach K recruit in certain places more than others?

[johnb]

Good and bad aspects of our selves meld unevenly inside of us. We separate them intrapsychically. If chronic and persistent, the splitting can lead to primitive personality disorders and psychoses. We can also separate them out more acutely during periods of regression, like during severe illness, stress, substance use, and the watching of basketball games. We keep the good inside of us and project the bad out into the world and into a demonized construct that fulfills our own latent transferential paradigms. We can feel good internally and then vilify the externalized manifestation of our own bad feelings.

Who should be the target of these projected bad feelings? Such a decision is unconscious and overdetermined, but possible issues include social acceptability. For most white people, for example, it is probably more palatable to shout epithets at white men than black men. Among some A-A groups, it may be more acceptable to identify with the underdogs/underclass/team with the most black players as a demonstration that you hang with the right subgroup and haven't lost your identity as a black man.

In general, Duke is a great lightning rod. Every sports fan knows that Duke undergrads are not simply typical hoops fans, which is the truth, but THE BEST FANS IN THE WORLD, AND THEY MADE 1500 ON THE SAT'S, BABY. Such idealization of Duke undergrads and players over the last 20 years has led to an entire generation of people who become polarized over whether to idealize or deidealize, to project into us the aforementioned badness or, instead, to project out goodness into Duke. Why spill your own precious goodness into an anonymous group of players, most of whom might say hello if you share a class but with whom you would otherwise have no connection? One reason to project out the goodness and create an idealized team/school is an unconscious but powerful attempt for Duke to be a normalizing force through which the world becomes a safe, familiar place. We can identify with the greatness and feel great, ourselves. Further, Duke-as-great means that there is an idealized force to keep uncertainty and evil away from us. This is why the country needs Duke. Not just to hate. Not just to love. But to keep us calm when all else is fragile and crumbling.

[Spret42]

You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

Oh jeez, I meant it as a bit of hyperbole. Of course nothing is for sure.
My point was Deng was the final piece of the puzzle for that team. He greatly raised the possiblility of their winning a national title.

[dukie8]

You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

you mean like the '99 team that was a lock to win it?

[captmojo]

why hate someone based on skin color when there are so many other valid reasons?

[devildownunder]

Almost nobody called them the Super 6? This is what i could find after 2 minutes of googling...

http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=103090

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=144874

http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=44408

http://6news.kusports.com/news/mens_hoop_recruiting/story/68510

""Everybody around here calls it the 'Super Six.' Dave Telep (bluechiprecruits.com) calls it the 'Selected Six,'" said Al Featherston of the Durham Herald-Sun. "It's the 'Selected Six' because (Duke coach) Mike Krzyzewski selected those six and got them all."

http://www.bigbadreviews.com/2004/10/duke-eyes-recruits-to-fill-gaps.html

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2003/09/24/Sports/Commentary.The.New.Way.To.Recruit-1464966.shtml

Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

I stand corrected. All I remember about that class was it being projected as a good collection of players who would fit in nicely at Duke -- with williams and especially jj projected as potential big-timers.

The only qualification I will add is that the McD AA's thing really doesn't mean all that much anymore. Way too often, kids shoot up the rankings simply because a name school takes some interest in them. Happens all time and many people here have brought it up.

That said, I was arong about the whole super six thing. My bad.