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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Durham

    Not to make race an issue, but...

    There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.
    Last edited by Classof06; 03-06-2007 at 03:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

    Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Classof06 View Post
    There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.
    Dahntay Jones "has been the direct subject of Duke hatred" in the past. Just because the media doesn't pick it up doesn't mean it does not exist. Jones just was not in the media as much as the mentioned players.

    Overexposure in print, TV, radio, etc. is what really causes this "hate." Joakim Noah at Florida is a prime example. By all accounts, he's a good guy but talk to a SEC fan and, most likely, they claim to hate him.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY

    race

    I'm not even sure that Henderson has been the object of all that much scorn. Most of the stuff I've read seems to be taking this opportunity to take aim at Duke basketball and Coach K. Everybody is agreeing that he is a good guy, even all the Carolina people.

    By the way, this is potentially a career changing suspension for Gerald. He has gone from a solid role player to being touted as Duke's best player in the span of a few seconds. Impressive.

  5. #5
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...6&sportCat=ncb

    this link was posted on another thread. read the list and count how many are black. it's definitely one (among many) reasons people hate duke. strangely, i've noticed much more duke-hating among white people than black - but that's a generalization with not that much basis.

  6. #6
    It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

    and this is just in recent history

  7. #7

    Race and hatred

    I've noticed the same thing that it is predominantly white fans who express this classless, irrational hatred of white Duke players. I don't have scientific ways of showing this, and my sample of black friends is probably too low...

    I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

    White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.

    Anyway, it's pop psychology and I have no background to offer anything more than that. I also don't know what it means or implies even if I'm even right.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

    and this is just in recent history
    This is preposterous. "Du-du-du-du-hon" "From the Window...to Luol" "Pay your Rent, Pay your Rent!" "Who, who, who, who, who let Jamal Out?" all of these are cheers from recent memory that have been specialized for players who happened to be black. Not every player gets a nickname, but I recall some pretty loud cheering of the standard "Da-iel Ew-ing" variety during my time in Cameron.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?
    "Du-Du-Du--Du-HON."
    Dock had one as well.

    And with Lee, remember that the "Leeeeeee" chant was not until his junior year, so that's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnacle View Post
    I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

    White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.
    If I remember correctly, this is the same thing that happened with Larry Bird, especially when comparing him with Magic.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

    Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.
    they didn't mind brand, ewing or hill because they were extremely mild mannered and came across as all around good guys. can you ever recall brand or hill showing up an opponent, dunking on someone and giving them a staredown or outwardly talking smack in a game? compare how they conducted themselves in public to your group of very demonstrative, vocal, and often outwardly arrogant white guys. how many times did collins or jj give a "3" sign to the opposing crowd (collins had a knack for doing it for pretty meaningless 3s too)? everyone knew that laettner was just nasty on the court so it's no shocker that other fans didn't like him. you conveniently left off j will who also walked the fine line of arrogance and confidence and incurred the wrath of many other fans (it doesn't exactly help when you are the best player in the country either). when he taunted bc with the ball with the clock running out and then got thrown over the scorer's table, i cannot say that the national anti-duke crowd thought the kindest thoughts of him either.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Not to make race an issue, but...
    And this thread is not making race an issue...how exactly?

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

    and this is just in recent history
    Well maybe not in RECENT HISTORY (as I unfortunately have only been to one Duke home game in the past 4 years), but there have been numerous cheers for black players at Duke. "Johnny is a God" was the popular one my freshman year (86-86). He still is IMHO!

    The only other ones I can specifically remember for players during my four years were Alaa Abdelnaby(genuflecting and chanting Alaa) and the one white player who got his own cheer was Martin Nessley (Marty Doesn't Foul). I don't think Danny Ferry ever had a cheer. Laettner?


    What about "CARMEN WALLACE, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap"

    I must agree that other fans do villify our white players more. I'm not sure why. But the Maryland, UNC and Kentucky fans I know all to a person seem to have the same list--of all white players, plus Shane. You can add Chris Collins to the list of disliked white players. Paulus and McRoberts are somewhat that way now too.

    Personally, players on my most disliked list tend to be players that taunted or in my opinion played dirty. Rasheed Wallace, Jeff McInnis, and Makhtar Ndjaye, and Vince Carter come to mind. This UNC team has not bothered me so much. I must admit, I really disliked Hansbrough for the past few days after our loss and the "Hendercident", but before that, I was pretty much indifferent about him. And his recent comments have gone a long way to restore that "neutral feeling" about him.

  14. #14

    As soon as you say, "not to make race an issue"

    As soon as you say, "not to make race an issue", you make race an issue. What's the deal? Why IS race an issue?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Allawah, NSW Australia (near Sydney)

    You have a point, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Classof06 View Post
    There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.
    I do think that Duke is sometimes -- and wrongly -- seen as "the school for star white players." And I also think that many of Duke's white players, especially the really good ones, draw a ton of heat based, in part, on the color of their skin. But I disagree that black players have never taken the heat. Battier, whose mother is white it should be noted, was a HUGE lightning rod for abuse, especially during his senior year. This was due in part, I believe, to Battier's squeaky-clean image and some overexposure. Much of the opposition's perception of Battier can be summed up in a quote I saw on another message board the year after Shane and Co. won the title: "Heck, Battier was the whitest guy on that team."

    And, of course, fans of the opposition could not stand all of those charges he took. It fed right into the whole "duke gets all the calls" parnoia.

    Another black player who was a "favorite" among opposing fans was Dahntay Jones, ironically for the opposite reasons as Battier. He had a reputation for being a punk, or making punklike moves. In 2003, he was very definitely hated. Probably more than JJ at that point, because Redick was still just a freshman.

    Let me re-emphasize that I do agree with your basic point. Heck, every year I wait to see who among our scholarship players will become "the most hated white man in america," as I have come to describe it.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Allawah, NSW Australia (near Sydney)

    Oh, it comes up

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

    Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.
    I've brought it up before here at DBR. So have other people. There have been some good discussions, in fact.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Allawah, NSW Australia (near Sydney)

    nice post

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I'm not even sure that Henderson has been the object of all that much scorn. Most of the stuff I've read seems to be taking this opportunity to take aim at Duke basketball and Coach K. Everybody is agreeing that he is a good guy, even all the Carolina people.

    By the way, this is potentially a career changing suspension for Gerald. He has gone from a solid role player to being touted as Duke's best player in the span of a few seconds. Impressive.
    I agree with pretty much all of this, and the second part is a bit funny. hehe.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Allawah, NSW Australia (near Sydney)

    Nah, trust me, we're not popular among African Americans either

    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...6&sportCat=ncb

    this link was posted on another thread. read the list and count how many are black. it's definitely one (among many) reasons people hate duke. strangely, i've noticed much more duke-hating among white people than black - but that's a generalization with not that much basis.
    thanks for that link! The explanations about why each player is on the list touched on some issues quite relevant to this thread.


    I went to Virginia State University from 1991 to 95. It's a black, division II college, in the CIAA -- the same conference as Durham's NC Central. I think there may have been 2 other people on campus who were Duke fans. MAYBE. When we played tournament games during those years, I'd hunker down in my dorm room and watch the games by myself. Through the concrete walls of the old buildings, I'd hear choruses of chairs synchronized with every rally the opposition made against my Blue Devils.

    Now, on a slightly different matter, I do seem to notice that some white fans have more hatred for the opposition's good white players than the opposition's good black players. I have brought this up before in earlier versions of this forum. Still not sure why it happens. Some here have said it's because seeing a white player perform athletic feats is more challenging to their self-esteem. Makes as much sense as anything I've heard, I guess.
    Last edited by devildownunder; 03-06-2007 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Needed to thank phaedrus for a very cool link. :)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Allawah, NSW Australia (near Sydney)

    maybe this is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnacle View Post
    I've noticed the same thing that it is predominantly white fans who express this classless, irrational hatred of white Duke players. I don't have scientific ways of showing this, and my sample of black friends is probably too low...

    I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

    White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.

    Anyway, it's pop psychology and I have no background to offer anything more than that. I also don't know what it means or implies even if I'm even right.

    I'm starting to hear this explanation consistently enough to believe there is some truth in it. If it is, then I'm glad to know the truth; however, it does sadden me because there is an element of dehumanisation black players inherent in this thinking.

  20. #20
    How about this as another possible reason for the increased hatred towards white players...

    Maybe it isn't REALLY about race, or at least as we think about it. Maybe what it is is REALLY a reaction to exposure, or OVER exposure, and maybe the media outlets tend to over expose white players over african american players?

    Just a 100 percent, out of NOWHERE thought that may just have NO ACTUAL BASE in reality, just a thought for consumtion.

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