UNC Athletics Scandal UPDATE: UNC Receives NOA from NCAA

[camion]

I have long thought that the only reason sufficient for the NCAA to hammer UNC would be to save its own skin. I think this is now close to being the case. I'm not sure that anyone in power at the NCAA realizes it.

In any event I think someone is going to get hammered as a result of this investigation. It might be UNC.

[uh_no]

Totally agree and have for last few years. Swofford is too strong an ally and he also has a lot to lose. Probation and maybe loss of a scholarship is my prediction. People will scream and then forget.

they didn't last time...hence this time

[Duke95]

I have long thought that the only reason sufficient for the NCAA to hammer UNC would be to save its own skin. I think this is now close to being the case. I'm not sure that anyone in power at the NCAA realizes it.

In any event I think someone is going to get hammered as a result of this investigation. It might be UNC.

If UNC doesn't get hammered, we might as well.

[JasonEvans]

What I actually was asking was whether they can say this with any credibility.

The "do they have any credibility left?" ship sailed a loooooong time ago for UNC.

-Jason "I truly think the NCAA can either hit Carolina hard or cease to be relevant... and I think the latter is a real possibility" Evans

[Papa John]

In their "Type 1" arguments, UNC is arguing for a two-tiered approach: (a) classes that can be used toward graduation, and (b) classes too inferior to be used toward graduation but that can be used to satisfy NCAA academic requirements. And they defend independent study classes that, on the one hand, are named in a Letter of Intent to Discharge as a reason for discharge because they "involved minimal academic expectations and that were offered at times to accommodate student-athletes," but on the other hand are asserted to be of sufficient quality to satisfy NCAA academic requirements.

There is some precedent for this approach:

Godwin's law has already been invoked? And the discussion was just getting started... Oh well...

[uh_no]

Godwin's law has already been invoked? And the discussion was just getting started... Oh well...

really? seems like it took us about 5 years sine the allegations first came to light!

[Papa John]

really? seems like it took us about 5 years sine the allegations first came to light!

Fair point... I was, of course, talking about the speculative dialog surrounding the NOA and what it might contain. But you are correct... What is this, the 10th thread on the UNC scandal? Is anyone keeping track? It's literally the gift that keeps on giving...

[moonpie23]

anything less than 05 AND 09 coming down is skating....imho

[uh_no]

Fair point... I was, of course, talking about the speculative dialog surrounding the NOA and what it might contain. But you are correct... What is this, the 10th thread on the UNC scandal? Is anyone keeping track? It's literally the gift that keeps on giving...

some day I need to find Mr. Pack Pride, take him out to dinner, and buy him a beer.

[Kimist]

This entire process is killing UNC fans, but it's also putting them in a sense of denial.

By that I mean, they're convinced that UNC did "absolutely nothing" wrong. Like, really? After 20 years of this, and they think UNC did nothing wrong?

As I live in the general area of Orange County, I can assure you there are many (most?) unc faithful who DO feel that way.

For those few who will, reluctantly, admit that the unc machine might have made a few errors along the way, the next words out of their mouths are always "but everybody else does it!!"

It's really more or less a Pavlovian type response on their part. . .

k

[ChrisP]

anything less than 05 AND 09 coming down is skating....imho

I concur. I don't think either banner will come down, unfortunately, but...a man can dream, can't he?

I live in NC and spend most of my time in Chapel Hill now (ah, what we do for love!) and other than ONE Facebook friend who's a UNC grad, I haven't heard a peep of outrage from any other UNC fans/grads over this whole mess. I really want to believe that our fan base would not react the same way - and I have little doubt that many of us who post here would be appropriately shamed and outraged - but, unfortunately, the cynic in me says that sports fans, more often than not, find ways to rationalize bad behavior when it comes to the team(s) they pull for. Sad, but true, IMHO.

[MarkD83]

Upstream in this thread there was a suggestion to go look at IC for reactions (I know I need to take a shower). It is interesting to see the balancing act of who will win and lose depending upon the NCAA penalties and compare them to this board. I have not ventured over to Pack Pride to get a similar read but I can piece things together from reading posts on DBR and IC.

So here is my brief summary:

IC : If UNC is severely punished it will be because of aggressive advocacy journalism on the part of primarily the N&O. (UNC did nothing wrong.)
PackPride : If UNC is severely punished it will be because of UNC's institutional arrogance and the hypocrisy that is the Carolina Way.
DBR : The decision is a test of the NCAA's legitimacy.

If I take a broader perspective and talk to my friends from the SEC none of these issues are being tested by the NCAA's decision. Instead, their view is the NCAA has rules about how to conduct athletic programs. Sometimes the rules are broken and programs will be punished. Then everyone moves on. I think that once the NCAA ultimately doles out punishment everyone on IC, Pack Pride and here will declare victory of some sort and everyone will be disappointed.

Perhaps the "victory" for UNC's rivals is the length of time this has already dragged on and if it continues to affect the next recruiting cycle.

[wsb3]

As I live in the general area of Orange County, I can assure you there are many (most?) unc faithful who DO feel that way.

For those few who will, reluctantly, admit that the unc machine might have made a few errors along the way, the next words out of their mouths are always "but everybody else does it!!"

It's really more or less a Pavlovian type response on their part. . .

k

It is the same in New Hanover County & I suspect 99% of Carolina fans everywhere are saying & trying to believe the same company line.

I am naive. I expected a little better out of their fan base.

But the part of their fan base that I am the most disappointed in....Educators....I know many people who are good teachers/ UNC fans, & yet they don't mind that their beloved UNC set up a plan of academic fraud for their athletes. They make excuses or remain silent. One man I love dearly that has been a teacher for many years told me that He did not think Roy knew. Forgive me I will say this once again. Not knowing is just as bad because you sat in living rooms across the country & promised parents that their child would receive a first class education. But of course Roy knew. He knew enough to look the other way at a program that was in place long before he became HC.

[Bob Green]

...and everyone will be disappointed.

You just hit the nail on the head!

[Olympic Fan]

I know (and like) a bunch of UNC people. I do know people who are embarrassed and upset about the scandal (and they are almost all UNC grads). On the other hand, I know plenty who are in deep denial -- most (but not all) are the Wal-Mart fans.

Just to go on record, from what I'm hearing from sources I trust, UNC is going to be nailed going forward, but I'm doubting that any banners come down or that wins are vacated.

I hear veteran administrators speculate that UNC will get postseason bans and scholarship reductions in a number of sports -- specifically, basketball, football, baseball, women's basketball and women's soccer (all sports that have benefited from the AFAM scandal). How long those bans might be, I don't know, but I was told that UNC would be treated harshly as a two-time offender. The punishment they got in March of 2012 specifically started that any other NCAA violations in the next five years would result in repeat offender status.

[toooskies]

I don't know how you wouldn't take down the 2005 banner when the team was nearly all AFAM majors. Pretty much any finding of long term guilt will declare at least some of those players ineligible.

[Duvall]

Sorry, PackPride. Looks like you will have to catch up to UNC the old-fashioned way - hire the greatest coach in college basketball history and let him do work for four decades. No shortcuts.

[wilko]

Since my friend you have revealed your deepest fear
I sentence you to be exposed before your peers


Tear down the wall
Tear down the wall
Tear down the wall

[hurleyfor3]

If I take a broader perspective and talk to my friends from the SEC none of these issues are being tested by the NCAA's decision. Instead, their view is the NCAA has rules about how to conduct athletic programs. Sometimes the rules are broken and programs will be punished. Then everyone moves on.

Ya know, I see this too with SEC people. It's like getting the flu to them, it sucks for awhile but it happens to everyone at some point and you just spend your week in bed and move on. Or like getting a speeding ticket, you pay a little and you drive slower for awhile but as long as you don't get too many too quickly you're OK. Unc fans clearly don't have a lot of experience with this. Nor do we, but we can learn from the SEC (!).

[Trinity_93]

I know (and like) a bunch of UNC people. I do know people who are embarrassed and upset about the scandal (and they are almost all UNC grads). On the other hand, I know plenty who are in deep denial -- most (but not all) are the Wal-Mart fans.

Just to go on record, from what I'm hearing from sources I trust, UNC is going to be nailed going forward, but I'm doubting that any banners come down or that wins are vacated.

I hear veteran administrators speculate that UNC will get postseason bans and scholarship reductions in a number of sports -- specifically, basketball, football, baseball, women's basketball and women's soccer (all sports that have benefited from the AFAM scandal). How long those bans might be, I don't know, but I was told that UNC would be treated harshly as a two-time offender. The punishment they got in March of 2012 specifically started that any other NCAA violations in the next five years would result in repeat offender status.

First, OF, thanks for passing on your insights, but I'm looking forward to seeing what ethical and logical contortions will be necessary if the NCAA is to let UNC keep the 05 banner.

I can understand that the NCAA might make a tactical decision not to look too closely at 2009, in particular Tyler H.'s mad Kiswahili skills. After all, listening to the man talk, it's pretty clear that in a just world, English would have counted as his second language. However, I can't see that the 2005 championship can possibly stand. McCants has admitted he only took paper classes in spring 2005 and produced his straight-A transcript to prove it, so the NCAA has prima facie evidence that the 2005 team played an ineligible McCants (ineligible either on the basis of his GPA minus the fake classes or because without his fake classes in spring 05 he wasn't a full-time student -- take your pick), and by well-established precedent, one ineligible player is all it takes.

Don't get me wrong, I know anyone expecting justice to emerge from this process is incredibly naive, but after vacating over 100 of Jim Boeheim's wins and USC's national championship in 2004, how does an NCAA spokesman defend letting 2005 stand? I know I wouldn't want to be the one to field that question from Dan Kane.