Deflategate results and outrage here

[moonpie23]

I never conceded that Brady was untruthful. I conceded that I don't think he told the whole truth which is a much different thing.

wait...wha???


is this the trick like the "unlimited data" at&t trick?

[TampaDuke]

For those interested, the NFL/NFLPA collective bargaining agreement is available here. Article 46 is the pertinent article.

Ignoring the presumption that he has lied, is the nfl even his employer? He is a contracted employee of the Patriots. This is not semantic. There are rules as part of CBA in terms of what constitutes compliance with the investigation but I don't think it's the same thing as a direct employee of a company

Section 4 of Article 46 addresses this issue to some extent:

The Commissioner and a Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct. The Commissioner's disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct.

More importantly, in my mind, is the fact that the CBA sets up three or four different types of grievance/arbitration mechanisms depending on the dispute at issue. All of them go to some sort of third party arbitrator or one that is otherwise independent of management, except for grievances of this type. In grievances of this type (i.e., contesting discipline taken for either on field conduct or for "conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football"), the article provides not only that the Commissioner gets to impose the discipline, but further provides that "the Commissioner may serve as hearing officer in any appeal[.]"

While the NFLPA is arguing that Goodell wasn't impartial, it's going to be hard for the them to win that argument in light of the fact that they contractually agreed that he could both impose discipline and serve as the hearing officer.

[JasonEvans]

The real difference between us is that you presume Brady has lied and you are basing your discipline on that presumption.

And this is the simple difference. The Brady defenders look at what the NFL has presented and see a conspiracy, a lot of what they think is circumstantial evidence, and other stuff that they take on faith. The rest of us look at the evidence and see a pretty convincing case that there was some kind of conspiracy and that Brady has lied.

-Jason "I think convincing one side of the other point of view is darn near impossible" Evans

[budwom]

when Dan Shaughnessey of the Globe turns on Brady and the Pats, you know their "story" needs reworking...I like the Pats just fine, but find
their posturing to be highly disingenuous. Golden Boy isn't used to being doubted, and Kraft is shocked Goodell is no longer his lap dog.

[Jeffrey]

I conceded that I don't think he told the whole truth.

Of course I don't think he has told the whole truth.

The real difference between us is that you presume Brady has lied.

He spent 6 hours answering questions, he testified under oath at his appeal hearing.

If the oath was similar to, "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", then we both presume Brady has lied.

[BD80]

No other way to explain this:


brady_073015.jpg

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...e-handed-touch

[Bostondevil]

Time for some payback.

All of you thinking that Brady is the absolute worst? You're in the same club as Gregg Doyel! How does that feel? Luckily, I wouldn't know!

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...lain/30804985/

I will admit that thinking of all of you in agreement with Doyel makes me kinda like this article.

[Bostondevil]

I'm not bringing this up because of the everybody cheats defense, I'm bringing it up because of all this discussion of lying.

Richard Sherman got his 4 game suspension for PED use reduced to zero by telling Roger Goodell he took the PEDs by accident. Now, to that, I say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire." But, you know, Roger Goodell believed him. Goodell will believe a lie when it behooves him to do so. Either that or he's stupid. Or maybe Richard Sherman was telling the truth, in which case, HE is stupid. So, if you want to go with Sherman is stupid and took supplements by accident, OK. If you're like me and think hogwash, was it OK for Sherman to lie? And if it's OK for Sherman to lie to Goodell, what is different about Brady? Brady is not Bellichick, he is not a repeat offender. And if NFL holds all Patriots up as repeat offenders because of Spygate - why not the Seahawks? They have had many players be suspended for PED use. What is the difference? Seriously, I would love to hear folks arguments around here.

[BD80]

Time for some payback.

All of you thinking that Brady is the absolute worst? You're in the same club as Gregg Doyel! How does that feel? Luckily, I wouldn't know!

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...lain/30804985/

I will admit that thinking of all of you in agreement with Doyel makes me kinda like this article.

Ouch. That's kind of mean spirited. On the other hand, if even a dullard like Doyel can see that Brady is a lying cheater, it should be obvious to all.

I'm not bringing this up because of the everybody cheats defense, I'm bringing it up because of all this discussion of lying.

Richard Sherman got his 4 game suspension for PED use reduced to zero by telling Roger Goodell he took the PEDs by accident. Now, to that, I say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire." But, you know, Roger Goodell believed him. Goodell will believe a lie when it behooves him to do so. Either that or he's stupid. ...

Sherman's not stupid, he went to Stanford.

Brady went to Michigan, an institution that the current fb coach (and former player) once slammed for its academic laxity with respect to fb.

[bluebear]

I'm not bringing this up because of the everybody cheats defense, I'm bringing it up because of all this discussion of lying.

Richard Sherman got his 4 game suspension for PED use reduced to zero by telling Roger Goodell he took the PEDs by accident. Now, to that, I say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire." But, you know, Roger Goodell believed him. Goodell will believe a lie when it behooves him to do so. Either that or he's stupid. Or maybe Richard Sherman was telling the truth, in which case, HE is stupid. So, if you want to go with Sherman is stupid and took supplements by accident, OK. If you're like me and think hogwash, was it OK for Sherman to lie? And if it's OK for Sherman to lie to Goodell, what is different about Brady? Brady is not Bellichick, he is not a repeat offender. And if NFL holds all Patriots up as repeat offenders because of Spygate - why not the Seahawks? They have had many players be suspended for PED use. What is the difference? Seriously, I would love to hear folks arguments around here.

Not to mention the last time a high profile qb didn't coorperate with an investigation involving a phone..
“Favre was not candid in several respects during the investigation, resulting in a longer review and additional negative public attention for Favre, Sterger, and the NFL,” the league said in a statement released early this afternoon.
“The commissioner notified Favre that he has been fined $50,000 for his failure to cooperate with the investigation in a forthcoming manner.”

[Olympic Fan]

The one thing I still haven't heard in this debate is an answer to a question that Jason asked much earlier:

What is Roger Goodell's motive from trashing his league's golden boy and dumping on his (former) best friend Robert Kraft? He's also raised questions about the integrity of the league, suggesting that the successful Patriots' franchise is cheating again.

Why would he do that? How does this entire scandal benefit the NFL?

[JasonEvans]

Richard Sherman got his 4 game suspension for PED use reduced to zero by telling Roger Goodell he took the PEDs by accident. Now, to that, I say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire." But, you know, Roger Goodell believed him.

So, first of all, I am confused. What Richard Sherman PED case are you talking about? Are you referring to this incident from late 2012?

In his Friday appeal, Sherman attested that the cup with his urine specimen leaked, which forced the person collecting the sample to use a second cup underneath the first one. Thus, Sherman argued, the presence of the second cup (the seal on which was broken) violated the chain of custody requirements for a fair test.

Sherman's attorney, Maurice Suh, released the following statement:

“We are very pleased that the hearing officer recognized that the egregious errors that occurred with Mr. Sherman’s collection required overturning the NFL’s discipline. Mr. Sherman provided honest testimony about a severely flawed process, and the hearing officer found him to be a credible man. We couldn’t be happier for Richard, and we were thrilled to help him and the union present a very strong case.”

I don't see anything like the story you outlined.

But, lets even suppose your story was correct. If there was no evidence of lies or a coverup and Goodell chose to believe Sherman, I would have no problem with that. I was not there to hear Sherman's testimony or review the evidence against him to determine whether he was lying or telling the truth. If Goodell believed him, that is in his power as the arbitrator in this case.

In the Brady case, Goodell looked at the evidence and listened to the testimony and determined that Brady was lying. This is how legal cases work all the time -- when faced with conflicting stories, the judge/jury have to make a determination of who they chose to believe. Generally, if they are really unsure, they find the defendant not guilty. In this case, Goodell felt there was ample evidence that he chose not to believe Brady. The Player's Association and the Owners have given him the power to be the final arbiter in situations like this. That's just how it works.

-Jason "bringing up a totally different case is just not how you win an argument like this, not even close" Evans

[JasonEvans]

The one thing I still haven't heard in this debate is an answer to a question that Jason asked much earlier:

What is Roger Goodell's motive from trashing his league's golden boy and dumping on his (former) best friend Robert Kraft? He's also raised questions about the integrity of the league, suggesting that the successful Patriots' franchise is cheating again.

Why would he do that? How does this entire scandal benefit the NFL?

To the contrary, this scandal has greatly damaged The Shield. It has raised all sorts of questions about how long the Pats have been "cheating" with deflated footballs to lower their fumble rates* and other stuff. It has tainted and stained the reputation of one of the league's most visible players. I mean, the only guy with a higher profile than Brady is maybe Peyton.

-Jason "this has been really bad for the NFL, a troublesome scandal that has cast the entire off-season in a negative light. I am sure that Goodell would love to make it go away forever" Evans

*- I know it was discredited, but the original study got a lot of attention

[BD80]

So, first of all, I am confused. What Richard Sherman PED case are you talking about? Are you referring to this incident from late 2012?



I don't see anything like the story you outlined.

...

-Jason "bringing up a totally different case is just not how you win an argument like this, not even close" Evans

Friggin' facts. Just can't count on em when you're on a roll

[moonpie23]

i'm looking over the schedule of nfl games coming up, and marking all the ones that i will intentionally skip in protest of the "league" having a "bad year" of publicity and incidents...


hmm....

this is kinda tough...

[Indoor66]

i'm looking over the schedule of nfl games coming up, and marking all the ones that i will intentionally skip in protest of the "league" having a "bad year" of publicity and incidents...


hmm....

this is kinda tough...

Do it like I do: miss them all!

[gurufrisbee]

I'm not bringing this up because of the everybody cheats defense, I'm bringing it up because of all this discussion of lying.

Richard Sherman got his 4 game suspension for PED use reduced to zero by telling Roger Goodell he took the PEDs by accident. Now, to that, I say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire." But, you know, Roger Goodell believed him. Goodell will believe a lie when it behooves him to do so. Either that or he's stupid. Or maybe Richard Sherman was telling the truth, in which case, HE is stupid. So, if you want to go with Sherman is stupid and took supplements by accident, OK. If you're like me and think hogwash, was it OK for Sherman to lie? And if it's OK for Sherman to lie to Goodell, what is different about Brady? Brady is not Bellichick, he is not a repeat offender. And if NFL holds all Patriots up as repeat offenders because of Spygate - why not the Seahawks? They have had many players be suspended for PED use. What is the difference? Seriously, I would love to hear folks arguments around here.

Still not true. It wasn't the other day when someone tried to bring it up. And even if it was (which it's not), it's still not relevant.

And yes, the Pats apologists who keep trying to use the argument that this is a witch hunt or being scape goated continue to baffle since NONE of that makes any sense. This has not benefitted the NFL at all. They have no interest in suspending one of the league's biggest stars or hurting one of the league's most profitable teams. They are doing it because the league cannot have cheating in it. Plain and simple.

[Bostondevil]

Still not true. It wasn't the other day when someone tried to bring it up. And even if it was (which it's not), it's still not relevant.

And yes, the Pats apologists who keep trying to use the argument that this is a witch hunt or being scape goated continue to baffle since NONE of that makes any sense. This has not benefitted the NFL at all. They have no interest in suspending one of the league's biggest stars or hurting one of the league's most profitable teams. They are doing it because the league cannot have cheating in it. Plain and simple.

Uhm - this? Jason Evans - this one is for you too.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ppeal/1728385/

And you know what, even if that story is true? Even if Sherman took the Adderall by accident? He still took it. It's still cheating, isn't it? Or is some cheating perfectly OK? Not so plain and simple.

If you want to believe that Stanford graduate Richard Sherman is telling the truth about drinking from a teammate's water bottle that just happened to have Adderall in it, be my guest. Goodell buys that cock and bull story too. Me? Either Richard Sherman is stupid or he's lying. In this situation I can't have it that he's both smart and telling the truth. Because really, c'mon, only an idiot would drink from his teammate's water bottle without asking what was in it. This IS the NFL after all.

[Bostondevil]

Friggin' facts. Just can't count on em when you're on a roll

Are you talking about ESPN?

[JasonEvans]

Uhm - this? Jason Evans - this one is for you too.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ppeal/1728385/

And you know what, even if that story is true? Even if Sherman took the Adderall by accident? He still took it. It's still cheating, isn't it? Or is some cheating perfectly OK? Not so plain and simple.

If you want to believe that Stanford graduate Richard Sherman is telling the truth about drinking from a teammate's water bottle that just happened to have Adderall in it, be my guest. Goodell buys that cock and bull story too. Me? Either Richard Sherman is stupid or he's lying. In this situation I can't have it that he's both smart and telling the truth. Because really, c'mon, only an idiot would drink from his teammate's water bottle without asking what was in it. This IS the NFL after all.

Ummm, as my link upthread noted, Sherman got off because the chain of custody on his urine sample was bad. It had nothing to do with Goodell believing a story or not. And, as I noted, even if your CLEARLY WRONG STORY was correct about Sherman giving a different excuse to Goodell, it is not up to us to judge who/what Goodell believes and what he does not. We are not there to hear the testimony or look the person in the eye as he gives it. As I said, if Goodell believes one guy and does not believe another, I've got no ability to say whether he was right or wrong in each case. Neither are you.

But, WHAT DOES RICHARD SHERMAN'S CASE FROM 2012 HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS ANYWAY?!?!? Why do you keep bringing it up? It is not in any way similar except for the fact that you seem to think that Sherman lied and got away with it (despite the fact that Sherman's penalty was eliminated because of evidence problems, not because of truth problems) and Brady lied but did not get away with it. Is that your point? I can't even tell anymore!

Brady looks bad... really bad. I applaud him for coming up with a way to keep his most die-hard fans engaged and on his side, but the rest of the country just sees a dude that is lying and trying to cover up. Sad because I really was a Brady fan before this happened.

-Jason "I heard an ESPN guy speculating that Brady is so angry he may decide to voluntarily sit out the 2015 season in protest... I would love to see that happen" Evans